Mexico a more important national security issue than the Middle east?

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**Melissia**

http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2011/09/free-speech-mexico

Free speech in Mexico
Be careful what you Tweet

Sep 14th 2011, 19:25 by T.W. | MEXICO CITY

SAYING what you think in print has always carried a risk for journalists. Between 2006 and 2010, at least 37 media workers were killed or went missing in Mexico. In some places the risks have become so great that the print and television media have stopped reporting on the drug war. Last year in Ciudad Juárez, El Diario ran a front-page editorial asking the drug traffickers: “What do you want from us?”

In the face of a news vacuum in the traditional media, citizens have turned to the safety and anonymity of the internet. Last year we reported from Reynosa that the city government had started using its Twitter account as a means of warning citizens when gunfights were going on. Anonymous blogs print details that newspapers fear to reveal. Twitter, Facebook and the like provide a forum to swap information and gossip.

But the chill on freedom of expression is now extending into cyberspace. Yesterday morning commuters discovered the tortured bodies of a young man and woman strung up from a footbridge in Nuevo Laredo, a northern border city that has seen heavy fighting linked to the drug wars. Near them was a mis-spelled notice threatening: “This will happen to all the gossips on the internet”. It mentioned two websites: El Blog del Narco and Al Rojo Vivo. (Be warned, if you click through, you may find photos that you will find hard to forget.) It isn’t clear how the killers selected their victims, as such blogs usually allow anonymous comments. But posters are likely to think twice before uploading information in future, even anonymously.

Criminals aside, social networks are facing another threat from the government. Two people in the state of Veracruz were recently arrested, preposterously, on charges of terrorism, after they spread apparently false rumours via Twitter that children were being kidnapped from local schools. In the ensuing panic, parents rushed to collect their children, leading to a series of car crashes. Gilberto Martínez Vera, a teacher, and María de Jesús Bravo Pagola, a radio presenter, initially faced maximum sentences of 30 years in prison for their 140 characters of gossip. The state is now reportedly planning to change its penal code so that the pair can be charged, retroactively, with “disruption of public order”. The fact that the pair committed a “crime” that was not a crime at the time seems to matter little to the state’s legislators.

With drug cartels and gangs getting more and more aggressive south of the border like this, should we turn more attention to Mexico and other Middle/South American countries?

And if so, what should we be doing?

**Necroshea**

I really don't know.

All I can think to do is change border control to a much stricter policy. Like shoot on sight strict. All I ever hear about regarding mexico is how dangerous and corrupt it is. There sounds like there is literally nothing that can be salvaged from it. So far I've yet to hear about gangs having access to missiles or similar weapons, so just close the borders and let them sort out the mess by themselves.

Another tactic is to legalize some of the softer drugs. Robbing the gangs of their business.

**schadenfreude**

Melissia wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2011/09/free-speech-mexico

Free speech in Mexico
Be careful what you Tweet

Sep 14th 2011, 19:25 by T.W. | MEXICO CITY

SAYING what you think in print has always carried a risk for journalists. Between 2006 and 2010, at least 37 media workers were killed or went missing in Mexico. In some places the risks have become so great that the print and television media have stopped reporting on the drug war. Last year in Ciudad Juárez, El Diario ran a front-page editorial asking the drug traffickers: “What do you want from us?”

In the face of a news vacuum in the traditional media, citizens have turned to the safety and anonymity of the internet. Last year we reported from Reynosa that the city government had started using its Twitter account as a means of warning citizens when gunfights were going on. Anonymous blogs print details that newspapers fear to reveal. Twitter, Facebook and the like provide a forum to swap information and gossip.

But the chill on freedom of expression is now extending into cyberspace. Yesterday morning commuters discovered the tortured bodies of a young man and woman strung up from a footbridge in Nuevo Laredo, a northern border city that has seen heavy fighting linked to the drug wars. Near them was a mis-spelled notice threatening: “This will happen to all the gossips on the internet”. It mentioned two websites: El Blog del Narco and Al Rojo Vivo. (Be warned, if you click through, you may find photos that you will find hard to forget.) It isn’t clear how the killers selected their victims, as such blogs usually allow anonymous comments. But posters are likely to think twice before uploading information in future, even anonymously.

Criminals aside, social networks are facing another threat from the government. Two people in the state of Veracruz were recently arrested, preposterously, on charges of terrorism, after they spread apparently false rumours via Twitter that children were being kidnapped from local schools. In the ensuing panic, parents rushed to collect their children, leading to a series of car crashes. Gilberto Martínez Vera, a teacher, and María de Jesús Bravo Pagola, a radio presenter, initially faced maximum sentences of 30 years in prison for their 140 characters of gossip. The state is now reportedly planning to change its penal code so that the pair can be charged, retroactively, with “disruption of public order”. The fact that the pair committed a “crime” that was not a crime at the time seems to matter little to the state’s legislators.

With drug cartels and gangs getting more and more aggressive south of the border like this, should we turn more attention to Mexico and other Middle/South American countries?

And if so, what should we be doing?

Will our attention and solution to Mexico and South America's problems only make things worse? That's a matter of speculation and opinion largely based on a person's faith in the US government and what the "solutions" are.

**Melissia**

Necroshea wrote:I really don't know.

All I can think to do is change border control to a much stricter policy. Like shoot on sight strict. All I ever hear about regarding mexico is how dangerous and corrupt it is. There sounds like there is literally nothing that can be salvaged from it. So far I've yet to hear about gangs having access to missiles or similar weapons, so just close the borders and let them sort out the mess by themselves.

Another tactic is to legalize some of the softer drugs. Robbing the gangs of their business.

But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

**Necroshea**

Melissia wrote:]But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

Allow me to answer your question with a question. Why don't they do something about it?

I'm a fan of the concept that if you are oppressed enough, you will eventually decide to rebel. My personality and mindset do not allow me to clearly picture myself as someone who would run away from a situation like this. Rebelling in a place like mexico could very well cost you your life, and many people are not willing to pay that price. So from now until who knows how long, there will be a constant stream of people who are just running away. Those that remain will suffer or join the gangs.

We have so many problems of our own right now, we can't play babysitter for every country that has a problem.

Bleeding hearts will demand we save them, cold hearts will demand we destroy. The former solves nothing but makes people feel better, the latter solves the problem but makes people feel bad for making hard decisions.

Like I said though, fixing world problems like this is a bit beyond me. Personally, I feel that it's very possible that the best solution to a problem is a large stick and an angry heart.

I spose' that makes me rather barbaric, but it is what it is.

**Melissia**

Necroshea wrote:
Melissia wrote:]But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

Allow me to answer your question with a question. Why don't they do something about it?

Because the ones who do get killed.

Even if they try to do it anonymously, they still get tracked down and killed.

Tell me, can you look an eighteen year old who works at a taco stand and barely manages to make enough to support her family in the face and tell her that she needs to risk being kidnapped, beaten, raped, and murdered, her corpse mutilated and then hung over a bridge as an example, leaving her family going hungry?

**Necroshea**

Melissia wrote:Tell me, can you look an eighteen year old who works at a taco stand and barely manages to make enough to support her family in the face and tell her that she needs to risk being kidnapped, beaten, raped, and murdered, her corpse mutilated and then hung over a bridge as an example, leaving her family going hungry?

Honestly? Yes I could. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Yeah I'm one of those kinds of people. Black and white and all that. Like I said, I'm not good with dealing with situations like this.

**Melissia**

Necroshea wrote:If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

So you admit to being part of the problem yourself?

**Necroshea**

Melissia wrote:
Necroshea wrote:If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.
So you admit to being part of the problem yourself?

I see myself as part of the solution because I advocate actions that bring about a personally perceived end to the problem.

Because I'm not actively working towards solving the problem, that makes me part of the problem.

Since I'm so insignificant in the greater scheme of things regarding fixing it, and because it has yet to personally effect me, it's not my problem, making me neither part of either.

**Melissia**

Necroshea wrote:Since I'm so insignificant in the greater scheme of things regarding fixing it

... and in her mind, so is the young woman, because her death would be just one of many, and her suffering would be without meaning except to cow everyone else, and her voice would go unheard for the rampant corruption.

**Necroshea**

Melissia wrote:and in her mind, so is the young woman, because her death would be just one of many, and her suffering would be without meaning except to cow everyone else, and her voice would go unheard for the rampant corruption.

Therein lies the problem.

If I lost a friend because some banger offed him, I would not weep. I would not wail the days away huddled in a corner while tasting the salt of my tears as time passes me by.

No, I would get angry.

If you will not stand up for yourself to fix what's wrong in your world, you're no better than the dirt you grovel in while the powers that should not be make use of you as they would an unbarred unlocked door that possesses no resistance and offers full access at the slightest push.

You shouldn't have to teach people how to stand, my belief is that it comes naturally.

Edit - Now I must sleep! You've kept me awake long enough with this discussion!

**Melissia**

Necroshea wrote:If you will not stand up for yourself to fix what's wrong in your world, you're no better than the dirt you grovel in

If you're strong enough to say this, shouldn't you be trying to help instead of looking down on them?

Someone who's weak and knows they're weak, and struggling to live and support their family, who has no influence, in a hopeless situation-- you can mock them all you want. But it's hard for me to agree with you. I admire the desire to live through hard times, and to make sure one's family lives... struggling to survive and not giving in to despair is strength in and of its own. Asking someone to go above and beyond, to die for a cause that you yourself don't really seem to believe in... just seems intellectually dishonest.

**biccat**

Melissia wrote:But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

Wasn't that part of the rationale for Iraq and Afghanistan? And now Libya?

**Melissia**

biccat wrote:
Melissia wrote:But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

Wasn't that part of the rationale for Iraq and Afghanistan? And now Libya?

To add context to that quote,I was talking about accepting immigrants instead of completely closing off the border.

**biccat**

Melissia wrote:
biccat wrote:
Melissia wrote:But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

Wasn't that part of the rationale for Iraq and Afghanistan? And now Libya?
To add context to that quote,I was talking about accepting immigrants instead of completely closing off the border.

Sorry, that wasn't immediately clear.

But still, how do you propose stopping the violence in Mexico?

**Melissia**

biccat wrote:
Melissia wrote:
biccat wrote:
Melissia wrote:But what about the unfortunate people who are trying to escape the violence?

Wasn't that part of the rationale for Iraq and Afghanistan? And now Libya?
To add context to that quote,I was talking about accepting immigrants instead of completely closing off the border.

Sorry, that wasn't immediately clear.

But still, how do you propose stopping the violence in Mexico?

I don't know. That's kinda why I was asking, to get ideas to potentially submit to my congressmen, heh.

Certainly having US and Mexican law enforcement organizations working a bit closer together, but that doesn't answer the corruption problem...

**LordofHats**

biccat wrote:But still, how do you propose stopping the violence in Mexico?

Would legalizing all the illegal drugs help?

Just a thought.

**Amaya**

Marijuana should be legalized. I haven't researched others enough to say about them, but I've heard stories about people ODing and dying the first time they do crack (or maybe it was powdered cocaine).

We should have seen this coming. Mexico is the natural funnel for drugs into the US. In a twisted way, the US caused this problem. Even if we invade and subjugate Mexico we'll have to deal with all the other countries in Central America.

Didn't the drug issue really pick up after the US handed the Panama canal over? Might be best to simply police the canal and surrounding waters better. Cut off the drug flow at the bottleneck.

**Pacific**

I think the US has paid quite enough attention to events south of the border over the last 50 years, both in Mexico and the countries beyond it.

There is a pretty good argument in political and social studies that this is a big part of the current problems those countries are experiencing.

**LordofHats**

Amaya wrote:Marijuana should be legalized. I haven't researched others enough to say about them, but I've heard stories about people ODing and dying the first time they do crack (or maybe it was powdered cocaine)

Though I don't know the numbers either, I've heard/read that more people are killed by what is mixed into the drugs than the drugs themselves. You find all kinds of nasty stuff mixed in with crack to thin it out. Rat poison for example.

I think drugs are bad. Some like LSD and Crystal Meth are so bad they should never be legal. Others however, while bad for your health, I think are more trouble than their worth when kept illegal. Imagine all the money we'd save in law enforcement and prison costs if we stopped sending people there for cocaine and weed?

In some cases, as with tobacco and over use of alcohol, I have no problem with someone slowly killing themselves. That's their problem.

**Blacksails**

Maybe because I'm a cynical individual when it comes to international politics, I'd have to say you can't stop the drug problem there.

The Mexican police force is not a particularly trustworthy organization, however the Mexican military does rate higher in terms of trust from the population. One of the main issues with the violence is that one of the major cartels (can't be bothered to find the name) was originally part of the Mexican military and split off once they realized they could make more money selling drugs. That particular cartel poses a major problem due to their high level of training and quality equipment.

The Mexican military treats it literally as a war, but violence alone won't stop the issue. The further away you are from Mexico city, the less the government exerts its control, or has the capability to do so. The answer lies in better security across the border to check not necessarily for drugs, but for weapons. The Mexican government would have to overhaul its entire police force to make it into a legitimate enforcer of the law that is respected and trusted by the people.

An invasion of any kind won't work. Legalizing drugs certainly won't work. Trying to stop the flow at the border won't work.

A problem this pervasive takes nothing short of a multi-pronged approach using the right mix of government support, increased security, and the proper application of violence to bring those to justice and make an example.

Lets not also forget the rest of Central and parts of Southern America that use Mexico as a stopping point. Complete and transparent international cooperation would be required to truly stop the problem, anything short would be temporary or a band-aid solution to the real problems.

*EDIT* I just realized its my Dakka birthday! Been a member here for exactly one year!

**Ultrafool**

All this Mexico drug cartel talk has me worried about my family down there. My uncle who owns a clothing store was taken by gang who beat and held him for ransom . Even the smallest of towns like the one my grandmother lives are bad. As Blacksails posted, better security check points, actually checking cars inside and out. I was down there last summer and I drove pass eight check points because they only search semi trucks.

**schadenfreude**

The cartels are not in the buisness of killing random civilians. They kill each other, police, the army, reporters, bloggers, and politicians. There is not any money in killing random dirt poor mexican civilians.

Any tactical victory against 1 cartel will just mean more money for the rest of the cartels. I don't see any solution to the problem short of legalizing all drugs or having the military liquidate all drug users late 1940s peoples republic of china style.

**bombboy1252**

I say we stay out of it, were in too many countries as it is. I would also like to see us get out of every other country were in now, and just stay out of peoples business. I don't think our troops should die just because theirs trouble across seas. Who made the U.S.A baby sitters?

**Relapse**

schadenfreude wrote:The cartels are not in the buisness of killing random civilians. They kill each other, police, the army, reporters, bloggers, and politicians. There is not any money in killing random dirt poor mexican civilians.

Any tactical victory against 1 cartel will just mean more money for the rest of the cartels. I don't see any solution to the problem short of legalizing all drugs or having the military liquidate all drug users late 1940s peoples republic of china style.

It's a tough business down there for sure.

**Trondheim**

bombboy1252 wrote:I say we stay out of it, were in too many countries as it is. I would also like to see us get out of every other country were in now, and just stay out of peoples business. I don't think our troops should die just because theirs trouble across seas. Who made the U.S.A baby sitters?

Your presidents over the years made you babysitters aka world police

**Necroshea**

Melissia wrote:If you're strong enough to say this, shouldn't you be trying to help instead of looking down on them?

But I am trying to help. I'm offering solutions that will go completely unnoticed. I could go down there and see that something is done personally, but regardless of the outcome, there is no real benefit in it for me.

I find it a bit odd that if I were to go down there and try to become the modern day robin hood, I would be doing more for the country than its people are.

**Mr Mystery**

Necroshea wrote:
Melissia wrote:Tell me, can you look an eighteen year old who works at a taco stand and barely manages to make enough to support her family in the face and tell her that she needs to risk being kidnapped, beaten, raped, and murdered, her corpse mutilated and then hung over a bridge as an example, leaving her family going hungry?

Honestly? Yes I could. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Yeah I'm one of those kinds of people. Black and white and all that. Like I said, I'm not good with dealing with situations like this.

What a mindlessly vile opinion you have. And might I suggest you don't seem interested in learning enough about the situation to develop your opinion beyond 'Eurgh! Foreigners!'

**Melissia**

schadenfreude wrote:The cartels are not in the buisness of killing random civilians.

They're still doing it.

Every day, every week, there's another story coming from Mexico about people murdered, men's mutilated bodies dumped in the middle of a busy street during rush hour, women's violated bodies hung from an overpass over a highway, etc.

Drug cartels ARE essentially murdering random civilians to keep the population from doing anything against it, including merely reporting where the danger is so others can avoid it. They are not an honest business-- they are a bunch of greedy, murderous psychopaths.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroshea wrote:I find it a bit odd that if I were to go down there and try to become the modern day robin hood, I would be doing more for the country than its people are.

Quit being arrogant.

People ARE trying to help their country.

They're being murdered for their efforts.

**Necroshea**

Mr Mystery wrote:What a mindlessly vile opinion you have.

Thank you

Mr Mystery wrote:you don't seem interested in learning enough about the situation

TBH I'm not interesting in learning more than what I already understand. Gangs popped up, pushed out the police force, peddle narcotics, kill people. Government is a bit overwhelmed and corrupt. People run away en masse.

You could fill in the blanks while you have my attention I suppose.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:People ARE trying to help their country. They're being murdered for their efforts.

These are the stories I would read about, I simply never see them. I've never heard anything about mexico in recent times except the gang killings, and police abandoning their stations because they keep getting shot up.