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I work on a daily basis and am friends with a fairly large number of people from Mexico and countries in Central and South America. When I talk to them about the drug wars in their countries, almost to a man they blame them in large part on the people that buy the drugs. A few I know came here to get their families away from the violence.
Discussion, opinions?

Yes, the people who sell the drugs and go murderous rampages are completely free of blame.

/sarcasmoff

Amaya wrote:Yes, the people who sell the drugs and go murderous rampages are completely free of blame.

/sarcasmoff

He didn't say they bear sole responsibility, but without people buying drugs there wouldn't be a market.

Goliath wrote:

Amaya wrote:Yes, the people who sell the drugs and go murderous rampages are completely free of blame.

/sarcasmoff

He didn't say they bear sole responsibility, but without people buying drugs there wouldn't be a market.

The drug users are more often then not victims as well.

As long as we're on the topic of victims. . .

Relapse wrote:I work on a daily basis and am friends with a fairly large number of people from Mexico and countries in Central and South America. When I talk to them about the drug wars in their countries, almost to a man they blame them in large part on the people that buy the drugs. A few I know came here to get their families away from the violence.
Discussion, opinions?

Do these people know anything about the drug users that they're blaming? Do they know about the people hopelessly addicted to something they did once or twice for fun that now have no control over their lives? Do they know about women selling their bodies to pay for their addiction? Do they know about the broken homes, the lost children, the ODs, the suicides, and all the other afflictions suffered by drug users and their F&F?

No, they probably don't. It's really easy to blame someone you know nothing about for crap.

but without people buying drugs there wouldn't be a market.

And without the war on MJ there wouldn't be a -black- market. When there is sufficient demand for something that it cannot be stopped, you have the options of controlling it, or banning it followed by plugging your ears and saying "LALALALALALA" while expecting nothing bad to happen. US.gov has chosen the latter. We had similar experience with something like this before, back about 90 years ago. Difference was we were as a nation intelligent enough to learn from our mistakes back then.

But, I am rambling. Back to topic...that's a bit like blaming the people buying Nike for Nike having sweat shops. Just a thought, it might be Nike`s fault Nike has sweat shops. Kinda like rampant corruption in the Mexican government and a bunch of gangs that pay little thought to wielding the power of life and death being responsible for Mexico`s current state.

rubiksnoob wrote:As long as we're on the topic of victims. . .

Indeed.

But like anything else in life, everyone is to blame a little bit. People don't just automatically mega lose control. You can feel it slipping away in chunks if you bother to pay attention, so anyone who lets themselves get addicted is also at least a little to blame. Otherwise people can't be blamed for compulsively living outside of their means or eating too much sugar, both of which I've found to be 10x more addictive than any drug.

Amaya wrote:

Relapse wrote:I work on a daily basis and am friends with a fairly large number of people from Mexico and countries in Central and South America. When I talk to them about the drug wars in their countries, almost to a man they blame them in large part on the people that buy the drugs. A few I know came here to get their families away from the violence.
Discussion, opinions?

Do these people know anything about the drug users that they're blaming? Do they know about the people hopelessly addicted to something they did once or twice for fun that now have no control over their lives? Do they know about women selling their bodies to pay for their addiction? Do they know about the broken homes, the lost children, the ODs, the suicides, and all the other afflictions suffered by drug users and their F&F?

No, they probably don't. It's really easy to blame someone you know nothing about for crap.

What they see from their end are family members being murdered, kidnapped, or caught up in some other way in the craziness going on in the their country. They are quite expert on the subject of pain and loss, trust me. They see people here buying drugs and shake their heads knowing the money goes to support the cartels.

Yeah, you didn't even bother to read or think about my post.

This will not end well. ¬¬

Amaya wrote:Yeah, you didn't even bother to read or think about my post.

As a matter of fact I did. I see the angle you're coming from and just wanted to point out that, from their side of the story, the choices they have to live with are to risk their family having members hurt in some fashion or leave a land that they grew up in and love.
The way they look at it, they were left with far fewer choices and options with live or die results than the peple who elected to get into drugs in the first place.

SOFDC wrote:But, I am rambling. Back to topic...that's a bit like blaming the people buying Nike for Nike having sweat shops. Just a thought, it might be Nike`s fault Nike has sweat shops. Kinda like rampant corruption in the Mexican government and a bunch of gangs that pay little thought to wielding the power of life and death being responsible for Mexico`s current state.

Well, yeah, it's basically exactly like that. Except the logical conclusion is to say 'while Nike is responsible for how it produces it's shoes it remains undeniable that if consumers were to become informed and not buy shoes that were produced in sweatshops then Nike would quickly change their ways'. This is all the more important a realisation when you consider that when conditions in Nike factories were uncovered and sales were threatened Nike put in multiple regulations and now has among the best reputations for conditions in their factories.

The same is true for drugs and Mexico. While the drug barons and their henchmen deserve plenty of criticism, it remains an undeniable fact that if kids weren't buying the product in the US the issue wouldn't exist in Mexico.

smh

Are people really that clueless about the crack epidemic in the American ghetto?

Amaya wrote:smh

Are people really that clueless about the crack epidemic in the American ghetto?

One usually doesn't contract a disease willingly. I would think that the vast majority of crack users willingly choose to use, and then become addicted. It is slightly misleading to call it an epidemic when the term is usually applied to a disease which one does not willingly contract.

rubiksnoob wrote:

Amaya wrote:smh

Are people really that clueless about the crack epidemic in the American ghetto?

One usually doesn't contract a disease willingly. I would think that the vast majority of crack users willingly choose to use, and then become addicted. It is slightly misleading to call it an epidemic when the term is usually applied to a disease which one does not willingly contract.

So...obesity isn't an epidemic either then?

Amaya wrote:

rubiksnoob wrote:

Amaya wrote:smh

Are people really that clueless about the crack epidemic in the American ghetto?

One usually doesn't contract a disease willingly. I would think that the vast majority of crack users willingly choose to use, and then become addicted. It is slightly misleading to call it an epidemic when the term is usually applied to a disease which one does not willingly contract.

So...obesity isn't an epidemic either then?

That depends. Are we using the proper definition or hyperbole? I can roll with either.

I would change the thread title, Relapse.

Perhaps, "Mexicans blame U.S. drug users for violence," rather than 'thank'.

Just a suggestion.

Amaya wrote:smh

Are people really that clueless about the crack epidemic in the American ghetto?

As a matter of fact, I used to live in a crack house during a particularly dark time financialy in my life. It was the only place I could afford to live for about 6 months while I was in the process of getting my life back on track.
I wasn't a drug user or drinker so people there left me alone thinking I was some kind of cop. I had a real good chance at that time to get some close observation on the way people end up in a place like that and of course their habits.
About half had started out from low income situations, about a quarter were from middle class families and the rest had an upper income background.
There was not much chance for conversation beyond the happy reminicense of last nights high or drunk, unless they were talking about how high or drunk they were going to get. Then there was the time someone came to me in tears asking they'd pawned their gun to me since they wanted to borrow it to shoot someone who'd cheated them in a ten dollar drug deal.
People were cooking meth in their living rooms,getting drugs from live in pushers or peddling to kids coming in with the weeks allowance from home.
During their more lucid moments I'd be regailed with stories from some of the tenants about what prodigies they were in their high school and college days, before they started in with stories of memorable parties they'd been at.
I came away from there with a firm knowledge that nobody held a gun to anyone's head and forced them to take drugs. It was something they did willingly in the belief that they were exericising freedom and nobody was going to tell them what to do. All that freedom ended up for these people boiling down to spending the money they'd begged from people to either buying some drugs or a bottle.
Meanwhile the money they'd spent on drugs was getting the cartels richer and more powerful.
When I was in high school, I'd see the kids these people used to be smoking pot and using other drugs, all the while thinking they'd actually never be affected by or affect others due to the habits they were willingly cultivating.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Goddard wrote:I would change the thread title, Relapse.

Perhaps, "Mexicans blame U.S. drug users for violence," rather than 'thank'.

Just a suggestion.

Good point. I'd originally meant it in a sarcastic manner, but I think you're right.

LordofHats wrote:

Amaya wrote:

rubiksnoob wrote:

Amaya wrote:smh

Are people really that clueless about the crack epidemic in the American ghetto?

One usually doesn't contract a disease willingly. I would think that the vast majority of crack users willingly choose to use, and then become addicted. It is slightly misleading to call it an epidemic when the term is usually applied to a disease which one does not willingly contract.

So...obesity isn't an epidemic either then?

That depends. Are we using the proper definition or hyperbole? I can roll with either.

Obesity is typically the fault of the individual for failing to educate themselves concerning proper diet and exercise and then following through with that.

Dropping some weight should be a lot easier than dropping a drug addiction.

Amaya wrote:Dropping some weight should be a lot easier than dropping a drug addiction.

We all know what obesity is

The problem is that in its proper definition epidemics only happen with viral disease, which obesity isn't. But most people use epidemic quite sparingly in hyperbole and I was attempting to be witty

@Relapse

And yet you think it's okay for victims of Cartel violence to blame victims of their drug use for these atrocities?

Let's put it this way.

Millions of companies sell their product without going out of their way to kill anyone. Why do Cartels feel the need to go on murderous rampages? Because they're fething donkey-caves. They are the refuse of this planet. They are the only ones who deserve to be blamed for this.

Just because there is a market for a product doesn't mean you should make that product. It sure as hell doesn't mean you should go around killing you get your product shipped. People complaining about drug violence and blaming it on Americans need to grow a spine and take back their countries.

Amaya wrote:@Relapse

And yet you think it's okay for victims of Cartel violence to blame victims of their drug use for these atrocities?

Let's put it this way.

Millions of companies sell their product without going out of their way to kill anyone. Why do Cartels feel the need to go on murderous rampages? Because they're fething donkey-caves. They are the refuse of this planet. They are the only ones who deserve to be blamed for this.

Just because there is a market for a product doesn't mean you should make that product. It sure as hell doesn't mean you should go around killing you get your product shipped. People complaining about drug violence and blaming it on Americans need to grow a spine and take back their countries.

I do think it's right for the simple reason that We live in an age of information. It isn't as though the people buying the drugs are ignorant of where the money they spend on the drugs has a good chance of ending up or the fact that they stand a good chance of addiction. As far as taking back their country, I'd love to see what your solution there is considering the average Mexican doesn't have a gun. Are you suggesting they charge the cartel people bare handed and let their families be tortured to death when the attack fails?
Barring a tactical genius of some type or another springing up in their midst it appears the cartels are there to stay as long as people buy their crap.

Yep, blame the Americans.

Don't blame the government for interceding earlier.

Don't blame the people for forcing the issue.

Don't blame the cartels for their acts of violence.

Don't blame the police for falling to corruption.

It is obviously the Americans fault, just like everything else in the world. If America does decide to go down there and take out every cartel they'll be called imperialistic and barbaric. So just complain and suffer.

They definitely blame the cartels, also. But the simple fact is that they have seen a country they love seemingly going into its death throes.
They blame drug users, not just people from the United States for supporting these cartels.

This thing that's going on in this thread, where people are pretending that because one bad person is part of a problem, that no-one else can possibly be responsible for any part of it... this is a stupid thing that people really need to think their way past. It will help you all understand the world a lot more.

Amaya wrote:Millions of companies sell their product without going out of their way to kill anyone.

And the economic and political situations of a criminal gang are exactly the same as for any other company. Don't be silly.

sebster wrote:This thing that's going on in this thread, where people are pretending that because one bad person is part of a problem, that no-one else can possibly be responsible for any part of it... this is a stupid thing that people really need to think their way past. It will help you all understand the world a lot more.

Amaya wrote:Millions of companies sell their product without going out of their way to kill anyone.

And the economic and political situations of a criminal gang are exactly the same as for any other company. Don't be silly.

Please explain in detail how the need to sell their product necessitates cold blooded massacres?


Are drug users a part of the problem? Of course they are. It just so happens that the cartels are the biggest problem. Blaming people that end up being exploited and abused as well is pointless. Focus on the killers not the junkies.

Amaya wrote:

sebster wrote:This thing that's going on in this thread, where people are pretending that because one bad person is part of a problem, that no-one else can possibly be responsible for any part of it... this is a stupid thing that people really need to think their way past. It will help you all understand the world a lot more.

Amaya wrote:Millions of companies sell their product without going out of their way to kill anyone.

And the economic and political situations of a criminal gang are exactly the same as for any other company. Don't be silly.

Please explain in detail how the need to sell their product necessitates cold blooded massacres?


Are drug users a part of the problem? Of course they are. It just so happens that the cartels are the biggest problem. Blaming people that end up being exploited and abused as well is pointless. Focus on the killers not the junkies.

That's like saying focus on the fire, not the fuel.

You can blame 3 groups of people for the violence

The prohibitionists that created the black market. Prohibitionists will not listen to reasons and will always insist that we can, will, and are winning the war on drugs no matter what the facts say otherwise. The conversation will usually end with the prohibitionists choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

The drug cartels that supply the drugs and violence. Drug cartels are only worried about their own survival and making more money. They are also have the most realistic views on the drug trade, and will freely admit all they are doing is ignoring society's ethics to provide a supply for a huge market demand when they are not too busy dissolving severed heads in vats of acid.

The users that make everything so profitable for the drug cartels. Hard drug only have 1 priority in life, and that is to get a fix. What can you possible tell someone who is injecting dope into their veins knowing it was smuggled into the country via balloons someone else swallowed and pooped out. Pot users on the other hand tend to be reasonable people, but on this 1 issue they are usually total hypocrites. Most of them either don't care where their weed comes from, or chose to be willfully ignorant much like the prohibitionists. The worst part is many pot smokers tend to be very socially conscious and have high ideals that they completely ignore when they go out and buy a product from the same black market that is causing all the violence in Mexico. The conversation will usually end with the pot smokers choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

That's a poor analogy.


It's pretty obvious that all you want is for the US to save you from a problem that the Mexican government should never have allowed to happen.


Short of a police state (or some freaking utopia where everyone is smart enough to not do drugs) there will always be drug users of some kind. No matter how well the country polices. No matter how well they educate on the dangers of drugs. Everyone knows smoking is bad, but people still do it.

Maybe it's the job of the government to make sure powerful gangs/cartels/whatevernameyoulikeformassivecrimesyndicates should have an extremely limited scope of power and that they should be eradicated as soon as you know, they start killing a few thousand people a year...