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Ok so I was re-reading the codex and got to thinking, according to the phase out rule it only works if there are "necron - special rule" units on the board. So being apocalypse and having no mandatory slot choices could you then field an all not "necron - special rule" army and be impervious to phase out? Seeing as how you could take Pariahs, A C'Tan, scarabs, tomb spiders, tomb stalkers and monoliths and none have "
"necron-special rule"?

You could take all units that do not have the Necron special rule, however, Apocalypse games are all capture the objectives. So if your opponent does not have many troops, you will be hard pressed to win.

Wouldnt that mean you auto phase out?

No, because to phase out you must be reduced to under 25% of your starting value. As you don't have any necron models to lose, you can't be reduced at all and so can't fall below the 25% mark.

25% of 0 is 0 just saying.

Yup, if you start with no 'Necrons' in your army you would instantly also have 25% of 0, and so your entire army disappears in the resultant logic explosion.


Or you could just ignore Phase Out for Apocalypse battles, which seems like the best option all around, really.

insaniak wrote:Yup, if you start with no 'Necrons' in your army you would instantly also have 25% of 0, and so your entire army disappears in the resultant logic explosion.


Or you could just ignore Phase Out for Apocalypse battles, which seems like the best option all around, really.

I agree completely Insaniak, Too much STR D running amok for that silly special rule

It is actually mentioned in Apoc to ignore Phase Out.

Yeah, it's Apoc rules. Basically, anything agreed to is fine. No using phase out for Necrons is one of the suggested changes.

Any citation to this rule. I know it's probably true but I need to be able to quote it for my lgs since the apoc game I missed they claimed to have Phased Out a Necron player with a D-plate on his warriors

I believe it's only a Suggestion in the book, not RAW. However noone should have any problems playing this way

insaniak wrote:Yup, if you start with no 'Necrons' in your army you would instantly also have 25% of 0, and so your entire army disappears in the resultant logic explosion.


Or you could just ignore Phase Out for Apocalypse battles, which seems like the best option all around, really.

True, 25% of 0 is 0. But Phase Out is once they've been reduced to 25%, and you can't reduce the number of necrons because there are no necrons to remove. Thus the number of necrons can't be reduced to 25%.

The act of being reduced is a part of the trigger for phase out, and when you start at 0 you can't be reduced and so can't trigger phase out.

Of course just removing phase out as the rulebook suggests is going to make for a much more enjoyable solution, as it will mean the Necron player can actually use a majority of his codex without phasing out after the first enemy turn.

Theduke07 wrote:Any citation to this rule. I know it's probably true but I need to be able to quote it for my lgs since the apoc game I missed they claimed to have Phased Out a Necron player with a D-plate on his warriors

RAW is not a rule in Apoc. That is what the setup period is for.

Pg. 18 says:

" Each player taking part in an Apocalypse battle needs to bring along an army. Armies may include any number of units from any Codex army list, plus any number of the legendary units and battle formations described on the datasheets later on in this book (see pages 100-175). Note that no force organisation chart restrictions apply to the army- just bring along all of the models you can! Ignore any restrictions that are normally limited to 0-1, 0-2, or whatever. Limitations such as 'you may field one Conscript Platoon' don't apply either. Really the only rule is that unit sizes must be correct."

Apoc has so many open holes that it really needs all parties to sit down and fill in blanks.

From that one paragraph I would assume that the phase out rule would not apply as it relies on restrictions concerning the force org chart which is clearly stated there NON-existent in 40k.

Of course that'd just be opinion. However I will agree, that 25% of 0 is still 0, and if you place 0 models on the table you have no game now do you? So if the parties agree that Phasing Out is still in play, then you loose placing 0 models.

Apoc is about having fun with huge battles. It's move a beer and pretzels kinda of game where nothing is taken to seriously. The only RAW in Apoc is those agreed to by the participants. Players are free to adjust the rules as they see fit provided all players agree.

So, where the mechanics of the game get in the way of having fun, players are free to change the mechanics. As pointed out previously, such rules as the Necron's Phase Out can get in the way. The OP provides such an example.

Just for clarifies sake as well the rule for phase out requires you to reduce the number of Necron ruled units by 25%. You cannot reduce 0 in any way thus you cannot trigger phase out.

NecronLord3 wrote:Just for clarifies sake as well the rule for phase out requires you to reduce the number of Necron ruled units by 25%. You cannot reduce 0 in any way thus you cannot trigger phase out.

Actually, to be pedantic, PO occurs when the number of Necron capable models in the Necron army is reduced to at or below 25% of the3 original model count. If there are no Necron capable models then the PO is 0, since 25% of 0 is 0 thus PO is reached before any models are deployed.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Just for clarifies sake as well the rule for phase out requires you to reduce the number of Necron ruled units by 25%. You cannot reduce 0 in any way thus you cannot trigger phase out.

Actually, to be pedantic, PO occurs when the number of Necron capable models in the Necron army is reduced to at or below 25% of the3 original model count. If there are no Necron capable models then the PO is 0, since 25% of 0 is 0 thus PO is reached before any models are deployed.

You aren't being pedantic enough and have missed the point. As you state, PO occurs when the Necron Army is reduced to at or below 25%.

If you have no Necron models to start with, your number of Necron models will never be reduced to at or below 25% as there are no models to remove which would reduce the number present. As the number of Necron models is never reduced, PO never triggers as it triggers on the reduction to at or below 25%.

Chrysis wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Just for clarifies sake as well the rule for phase out requires you to reduce the number of Necron ruled units by 25%. You cannot reduce 0 in any way thus you cannot trigger phase out.

Actually, to be pedantic, PO occurs when the number of Necron capable models in the Necron army is reduced to at or below 25% of the3 original model count. If there are no Necron capable models then the PO is 0, since 25% of 0 is 0 thus PO is reached before any models are deployed.

You aren't being pedantic enough and have missed the point. As you state, PO occurs when the Necron Army is reduced to at or below 25%.

If you have no Necron models to start with, your number of Necron models will never be reduced to at or below 25% as there are no models to remove which would reduce the number present. As the number of Necron models is never reduced, PO never triggers as it triggers on the reduction to at or below 25%.

I've reduced your Necrons by zero. You are not at 25% of your starting strength. You now phase out.

Chrysis wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Just for clarifies sake as well the rule for phase out requires you to reduce the number of Necron ruled units by 25%. You cannot reduce 0 in any way thus you cannot trigger phase out.

Actually, to be pedantic, PO occurs when the number of Necron capable models in the Necron army is reduced to at or below 25% of the3 original model count. If there are no Necron capable models then the PO is 0, since 25% of 0 is 0 thus PO is reached before any models are deployed.

You aren't being pedantic enough and have missed the point. As you state, PO occurs when the Necron Army is reduced to at or below 25%.

If you have no Necron models to start with, your number of Necron models will never be reduced to at or below 25% as there are no models to remove which would reduce the number present. As the number of Necron models is never reduced, PO never triggers as it triggers on the reduction to at or below 25%.

Twenty-five percent of zero is zero, simple math. You start out with zero Necron capable models thus your Phase Out is zero thus you Phase Out by the start of turn two.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Twenty-five percent of zero is zero, simple math. You start out with zero Necron capable models thus your Phase Out is zero thus you Phase Out by the start of turn two.

Turn 1, actually.

I'd love to see a Necron vs Necron battle, where both sides have zero Necrons. Whoever goes 2nd wins!

No as there is never a reduction of Necron ruled models phase out never occurs. Argue it all you want but you can't reduce 0 in anyway thus the rule is never triggered.

NecronLord3 wrote:No as there is never a reduction of Necron ruled models phase out never occurs. Argue it all you want but you can't reduce 0 in anyway thus the rule is never triggered.

You can reduce it by zero.

You cannot divide by zero. It is mathmattically impossible.

NecronLord3 wrote:You cannot divide by zero. It is mathmattically impossible.

Correct. But, you can subtract by zero.

In any case, rather than have our heads implode from too much math I'd suggest we ignore Phase Out. Apocalypse is all about fun and agreeing on how to have fun beforehand.It's all up to the players agreeing on a game.

If you wished you could have a huge Necron super-monolith as an objective, causing Necrons to phase out if the enemy could capture and keep it for two turns. Or a series of monolith objectives where capturing so-and-so many is needed for phase out. The backlash of arcane energies resulting from an enemy damaging the thing on assaulting would ofc be enough to sweep large areas clean of minor obstructions like infantry and tanks.

Grakmar wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:You cannot divide by zero. It is mathmattically impossible.

Correct. But, you can subtract by zero.

Yes and since 0-0 is still 0 and I am at 100% of my starting number of Necron ruled models then I don't Phase out. If you can reduce me to negative .75 Necrons then you can cause phase out.

It really is quite simple and anyone arguing otherwise is doing it only for the sake of argument. Also it is greatly supported by fluff to allow units like Tomb Spyders, Scarabs, Tomb Stalkers, etc.. To function outside of the 'Necron' army.

You are ALSO at 25% of your starting number. So you phase out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are ALSO at 25% of your starting number. So you phase out.

That is NOT the rule the rule says REDUCE. I am not reduced by anything thus phase out does not trigger.

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are ALSO at 25% of your starting number. So you phase out.

That is NOT the rule the rule says REDUCE. I am not reduced by anything thus phase out does not trigger.

I reduce 0 by 0. Since 25% of 0 is 0 and you are at 0 Necrons, you phase out.
It's Apoc. It just doesn't matter.