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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 10:34:22
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2011/10/piracy SOMALI pirates can be persistent. They have attacked the Maersk Alabama, a container ship owned by an American subsidiary of Denmark’s Maersk Line, no fewer than five times, most recently in May. In the first attack, in 2009, the captain was held hostage until the US Navy rescued him. Then Maersk put private armed guards on the ship. Since then, it has successfully repelled all boarders. Maersk says it is only arming a few ships plying the pirate-infested waters off East Africa. But the practice is spreading rapidly among shipping firms despite the cost, which can run to $100,000 per voyage for a four-man team. That is because the number of attacks, off Somalia and elsewhere, has kept growing despite the strengthening of naval patrols (see chart). The European Union’s NAVFOR task-force, NATO warships and other navies patrol the waters off Somalia, but this has only pushed the pirates out into the open ocean, extending their attack zone towards India’s coast and as far south as Mozambique’s. This has forced the shipping industry, its insurers, and the national and international authorities that oversee them to accept that private armed guards are a necessity. On October 11th British and American navy ships rescued an Italian cargo vessel seized the previous day in the Indian Ocean, after, somewhat improbably, finding a message in a bottle that the hostages threw overboard. But, such are the millions to be made from ransoms and cargo theft, this success is most unlikely to deter the pirates. In the past month, according to NAVFOR, ransoms have had to be paid to free two Greek-owned ships, leaving a further ten large vessels (and countless smaller ones) still in the pirates’ hands, along with more than 250 hostages. A NATO commander has predicted that, with the end of the south-west monsoon season, pirate attacks will only increase in the coming months. Until February the International Chamber of Shipping (ICS), which represents the world’s merchant shipowners, opposed the use of armed guards—even as some members were discreetly hiring them. Since the chamber changed its line, the number of owners tooling up has accelerated. Now, says Simon Bennett, its spokesman, perhaps 20% of all ships passing through the risky parts of the Indian Ocean have armed guards aboard—typically retired marines or the like. In recruiting armed security men, some shipowners have defied the laws of the countries where their vessels are registered. But governments, unable to provide the naval cover the shipowners want, are one by one legalising the practice. Spain, one of the earliest to let its fishing-boats carry armed guards, said on September 27th that they would now be allowed to use machineguns and other heavy weapons against the pirates’ AK-47s. Some countries, such as America and Denmark, have introduced licensing schemes for owners who want to arm their ships. Britain is among those still considering legalisation, and Greece’s shipping industry is pressing its government to do likewise. The UN’s International Maritime Organisation (IMO), while still not endorsing the practice, last month asked Somalia’s neighbours to let armed merchant ships call at their ports. The ICS says it understands Egypt is to lift its ban on armed merchant ships’ passage through the Suez canal. But the Indian government is still said to disapprove of armed merchant ships calling at its ports: their guards either have to go elsewhere or dump their weapons overboard. An official inquiry in the Netherlands last month recommended that the government itself do the hiring of armed guards, enlisting them as temporary members of the armed forces. This is one potential way to ease worries about the spread of what would in effect be private navies on the high seas—something not seen since government-sponsored “privateers” were banned in the 19th century. The IMO says armed guards should not be an alternative to using other defensive methods, such as knocking pirates into the sea with high-pressure hoses, or installing strengthened “citadels” on ships in which crews can take refuge from attacks. However, what is concentrating shipowners’ minds, says Neil Smith of the Lloyd’s Market Association (which represents underwriters on the London insurance market) is that no ship with armed guards has yet been taken by pirates. The question, he says, is whether as more ships arm themselves, the pirates will use more violent tactics. Shipowners’ insurers are worried that ill-trained guards without insurance of their own might shoot someone and land them with huge claims. North of England P&I, a shipowners’ mutual-insurance club, is setting up a vetting scheme for security firms. Andrew Glen, one of its officials, says member companies have sometimes struggled to find suitable contractors, so it makes sense to compile a list of pre-approved ones for them to choose from. The scheme will ensure, among other things, that the security firms themselves have adequate indemnity cover. There do not yet seem to have been any claims, or lawsuits, over the use of armed ship guards, says Tom Heinan of International Registries (which runs the Marshall Islands’ shipping register). But shipowners using them could face legal action in various places: their own country, the flag state of their ship, the home countries of injured crewmen, and so on. All the more reason to ensure that the guards are competent and well-insured. It's becoming too expensive to simply pay the pirates off, apparently. About damned time IMO...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/13 10:34:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 10:49:04
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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I see room for mercenaries to operate an 'escort system' there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 10:50:00
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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There's also been kidnappings in Kenya; a frenchwoman was taken from a Kenyan tourist trap, tossed on a ship and is now somewhere in Somalia. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ketara wrote:I see room for mercenaries to operate an 'escort system' there.
I like the idea of government-licensed contractors. Set up a system where they prove they've had training and that they have insurance covering their actions, and then give 'em a license to be private marines (in the traditional sense).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/13 10:51:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 10:53:03
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
Through the looking glass
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25k for a single marksmen? You have to buy a pack of 4 per voyage? Wow. For 10k you could recruit, train, and outfit your own guards, and get a bit more than 4. For 100k you could get a small army.
I'm no expert regarding 3rd world counties, but isn't somali pretty poor?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/13 10:53:39
“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”
― Jonathan Safran Foer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:33:26
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The other thing to consider however is if you don't take security or cannot wait to train/afford your own. Companies lose millions while individuals lose their freedom. Further, a company that employs a shooter risks huge liabilities versus ones who are rented.
Do you think a Somali pirate who gets injured by a company owned marksmen could then sue the company for injuries?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:36:58
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I'm sure they COULD sue (you can sue for almost anything), but the better question is can they sue successfully?
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:40:06
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
Through the looking glass
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WarOne wrote:The other thing to consider however is if you don't take security or cannot wait to train/afford your own. Companies lose millions while individuals lose their freedom. Further, a company that employs a shooter risks huge liabilities versus ones who are rented.
Do you think a Somali pirate who gets injured by a company owned marksmen could then sue the company for injuries?
Well I would imagine if a company is too poor to afford one then the cheaper route doesn't apply to them.
As for liability and being sued. I have absolutely no idea how the legal environment is over there. I'll take a wild guess and say a contract saying that you might die in the course of duty would be sufficient, unlike here in the states where a contract is useless in regards to the signer taking personal responsibility for everything that may occur.
Also, I'm pretty sure that if you kill a pirate nobody will care. Well except the pirates...maybe.
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“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”
― Jonathan Safran Foer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:40:30
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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The problem with the US 'legalising' companies to do it, is that, believe it or not, US writ does not run worldwide. We're talking about a situation whereby we have shipping from all across the world traversing this one specific region, and the US is distant and relatively irrelevant.
Therefore the logical thing to do would be to have a security company set up shop in Kenya or somewhere nearby, and then in Egypt or somewhere on the other side, and just effectively transfer between the two bases. You don't need them for the rest of the journey between say, Gibraltar and the US. You're probably not going to be attacked out there. You just need security for that one stretch of ocean.
Presumably, if the imaginary Security company in question owned a few small transfer boats, they could rendezvous with the ships out at sea a short way prior to entering the danger zone, meaning the shipping companies would not even have to go off route. ( A simple radio password or suchlike would ensure they could not be impersonated by pirates).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/13 11:41:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:44:48
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Ketara wrote: ( A simple radio password or suchlike would ensure they could not be impersonated by pirates).
The problem is that, with pirates gaining more ties to terrorist organizations (according to articles I've read anyway, dunno how many ties though), they could become sophisticated enough to overcome this measure...
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:47:56
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Ketara wrote:The problem with the US 'legalising' companies to do it, is that, believe it or not, US writ does not run worldwide. We're talking about a situation whereby we have shipping from all across the world traversing this one specific region, and the US is distant and relatively irrelevant.
From my understanding of maritime law, ships are required to abide by the laws of thier home country (the flag they fly under) and any country where they port (at the time of porting). So a ship flying an American flag is required to abide by U.S. law while in the open ocean.
Note that this is all occurring in international waters.
Ketara wrote:Presumably, if the imaginary Security company in question owned a few small transfer boats, they could rendezvous with the ships out at sea a short way prior to entering the danger zone, meaning the shipping companies would not even have to go off route. ( A simple radio password or suchlike would ensure they could not be impersonated by pirates).
...and I wonder how long it would take for some enterprising Somalis to realize that they can make more as security guards defending against their countrymen than as pirates.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:48:28
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Melissia wrote:Ketara wrote: ( A simple radio password or suchlike would ensure they could not be impersonated by pirates).
The problem is that, with pirates gaining more ties to terrorist organizations (according to articles I've read anyway, dunno how many ties though), they could become sophisticated enough to overcome this measure...
Fly a flag. Have a specific model of boat in a specific colour scheme. Have an identifiable man on the front of the boat. Alternate between all four methods one each transfer.
If your security can't prevent outwit a low tech Somalian pirate in a skiff trying to impersonate him, he shouldn't even be in that line of work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:52:27
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Ketara wrote:If your security can't prevent outwit a low tech Somalian pirate in a skiff trying to impersonate him, he shouldn't even be in that line of work.
As I said, that may not actually be what they'll be facing off against if the pirates end up gaining terrorist support, especially funding. Even if they only use a specific model of boat manufactured only for them, that could still be captured and used against them-- perhaps only once before it's found out, but it's still a leak.
It's not a problem that locally based security professionals would have.
Heck, even just having the security professionals in, say, Saudi Arabia or another similar local developed country would be better than having them be close to the pirates' base.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 11:53:01
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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biccat wrote:
From my understanding of maritime law, ships are required to abide by the laws of thier home country (the flag they fly under) and any country where they port (at the time of porting). So a ship flying an American flag is required to abide by U.S. law while in the open ocean.
Note that this is all occurring in international waters.
Let's be honest, if you pick up 'temporary sailors' on the way and leave them behind before you hit US territory, no-one is going to notice or care. I cannot see a Somalian pirate attempting to prosecute through the US courts (because they would be the only ones with an interest in prosecuting in this case), and how would you collect evidence for it? If the security company comes and leaves in the space of a few days on the voyage, and nobody but the crew of that ship knows, how would you ever even begin to build a case for that?
...and I wonder how long it would take for some enterprising Somalis to realize that they can make more as security guards defending against their countrymen than as pirates. 
I would assume anyone of sufficient interest in making money out of this would want to trade off of ex-soldiers from professional armies, so Israeli's, Gurkha's, Marines, and so on. The usual chaps who take up work in professional security companies. I can't see a professional shipping firm wanting to entrust their ships and cargoes to unknown groups of untrained Africans with guns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:Ketara wrote:If your security can't prevent outwit a low tech Somalian pirate in a skiff trying to impersonate him, he shouldn't even be in that line of work.
As I said, that may not actually be what they'll be facing off against if the pirates end up gaining terrorist support, especially funding. Even if they only use a specific model of boat manufactured only for them, that could still be captured and used against them-- perhaps only once before it's found out, but it's still a leak.
It's not a problem that locally based security professionals would have.
Heck, even just having the security professionals in, say, Saudi Arabia or another similar local developed country would be better than having them be close to the pirates' base.
I don't understand how 'having terrorist backing or support' equates to 'basic security measures will be unworkable'.
I'm in my office in Egypt. You're in your office in the US (the captain of the ship). You're setting out that evening. I call you on your personal mobile and tell you the password is 'Swordfish'.
Now what are the odds your phone is being tapped? Or your E-mail has been compromised?
I mean, let's face it, the odds of 'unnamed generic terrorist group 27#' not only posessing your personal number, but having tapped it is pretty unlikely.
And again, even if they did, it's pretty easy to circumvent. Deliver the correct password in a cipher or code, the only physical key of which is kept at either end.
Basic security measures are not difficult. We're not dealing with the KGB here.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/10/13 12:00:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 12:03:00
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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True, we aren't talking about the KGB-- but we are talking about pirates whom are becoming more and more ruthless as time goes on. Given our experience with drug cartels, unless we get rid of the problem early on (unlikely, given the lack of political will), eventually they'll become better and better at what they do until they're able to contend with the armies of many developing or even some lesser developed countries-- especially given that the less ruthless, the weak and stupid, are being killed off anyway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/13 12:03:48
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/13 12:33:11
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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When grandpa frazzled was a sea captain, he had a whole plethora of rifles and small arms. Interestingly, one of his routes pre war was through the same area the Somali pirates are at now, so pirates have been around for a wee bit there.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 08:44:52
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Piracy has been going on in many parts of the world for centuries. Those buggers around the Horn of Africa are simply getting more daring and successful. They also are not afraid to capture ships of the Developed World (US, Europe, Japan, Korea, and the ANZAC nations), which shocks us for some odd reason. The pirates off the coasts of east and south Asia are supposedly in decline due to greater cooperation among the governments there, but no such luck stopping the Somali pirates. Kenya is pretty much the closest thing to a stable country around and they already have their hands full with other security concerns: border trouble with Uganda, Sudan's turmoil, and instability in the Northeastern Province of Kenya (which is actually inhabited by ethnic Somalis).
The Kenyans won't be able to ignore the Somali kidnappings and attacks against tourists inside Kenya's borders. Kenya derives much of its income from tourism and desperately needs visitors to keep coming. The depressed world economy already hurt Kenya a lot. They don't need any more reasons for the smaller pool of tourists to plot their vacation destinations elsewhere. But Kenya has a small navy and no money to build it any larger.
I'm happy to see the merchants getting more leeway to fight back, but I don't see this problem actually decreasing until we go ashore at will and hit the pirates where they feel safe. Take a look at the background of the US Marine Corps hymn's phrase "to the shores of Tripoli..." and you'll see what I mean.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/16 08:45:38
The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.
I build IG...lots and lots of IG. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 09:06:37
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, locationMagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 09:11:06
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
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Hire none pirate Samalian as guards for $10 each >.>
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ʳʷ ᵖˡᵃʸ ᵖᵃᵘˢᵉ ˢᵗᵒᵖ ᶠᶠ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 09:19:17
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Dundee, Scotland/Dharahn, Saudi Arabia
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Decent "Security Specialists" or Military Contractors are expensive.
(I should know, I am one  )
The shipping lines are not going to hire a bunch of African gunmen as guards.
They will want ex western forces types.
$25,000 per man per trip sounds about right depending on experience and background.
The Somali pirates are doing this because it's easy money.
If it becomes more difficult, they'll move on.
A guy on the rail with NVG and an M2 would be the easy way to demotivate them.
It's difficult to sue when you're in small chunks on the sea bed.
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If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. item 87, skippys list
DC:70S+++G+++M+++B+++I++Pw40k86/f#-D+++++A++++/cWD86R+++++T(D)DM++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 09:31:43
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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Its been common for a while. I reckon about 50% of my ex RM comrades are now working maritime security ..
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 09:32:41
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Mercenaries are not the answer. The crew of most merchant ships is about 20 sailors. Arm and train the ship's crew. For $100,000 a ship can buy a dozen M16, a dozen shotguns, 2 dozen bullet proof vests, and a half dozen fixed 50 caliber machine guns, toss in a mortar, and still have money left over to train the crew. With a bit of formal training the ship's crew would actually be better marksmen than the pirates. If pirates attempt to board the ship the lead pirate skiff would be carrying a half dozen pirates with no cover within their skiff going up against a dozen sailors behind hard cover with their enemy in a superior elevation. Attacking uphill against an entrenched opponent while outnumbered 2:1 won't end well for the pirates.
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 09:36:13
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Noble of the Alter Kindred
United Kingdom
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Q ships are the way to go and/or convoys and/or rocks and boiling oil That would stop the buggers boarding!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/16 09:39:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 10:20:52
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
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Or they can just give guns to the crewmen.
From what I've seen,Somalian pirates just have aks and maybe an odd rpg, and simple boats that fit half a dozen.
Surely a spray of bullets from any assault rifle would kill six men in no time,and just from one crewman,now give 10 guns and bullet proof vests, and those little grenade lauchers that go under the gun barrel,and no pirate would stand a chance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 10:48:48
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Noble of the Alter Kindred
United Kingdom
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Rock sare cheaper
High pressure water hoses would work too
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 14:24:44
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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Necroshea wrote:
I'm no expert regarding 3rd world counties, but isn't somali pretty poor?
It is one of the most desperately poor places on earth, if you want some depressing reading: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/08/shameful-stunning-somali-statistics/
Here is an article from a couple of years ago about some of the pirating going on off the coast of Somalia. Obviously the vast majority of the pirates are simply lawless brigands trying to pilfer, and so deserve to be treated as such, but it isn't completely clear cut good vs. evil, comic book-style event. In some cases, because Somalia does not have an international recognised government, it's waters do not technically belong to anyone. It has therefore become a free dumping ground for nuclear and chemical waste (often why the boats are close enough for pirates to reach them), which has lead to the deaths of hundreds, destruction of fishing stock, and malformation of babies. The article below is well worth reading.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 14:28:05
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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schadenfreude wrote:Mercenaries are not the answer. The crew of most merchant ships is about 20 sailors. Arm and train the ship's crew. For $100,000 a ship can buy a dozen M16, a dozen shotguns, 2 dozen bullet proof vests, and a half dozen fixed 50 caliber machine guns, toss in a mortar, and still have money left over to train the crew. With a bit of formal training the ship's crew would actually be better marksmen than the pirates. If pirates attempt to board the ship the lead pirate skiff would be carrying a half dozen pirates with no cover within their skiff going up against a dozen sailors behind hard cover with their enemy in a superior elevation. Attacking uphill against an entrenched opponent while outnumbered 2:1 won't end well for the pirates.
I disagree with some of this, as not everyone can be a soldier, so the same applies here.
Not everyone would display an aptitude for weapons training, much less a willingness to shoot people. That's why basic training for decent soldiers is far longer than a week, it's 32 weeks for RM commando's, but even regular grunts such as the USMC have a basic 13 week boot, or basic army infantry is about 9. And for that reason, because its not merely showing you how to shoot and work a firearm and a doing a bit of running. Its methodically drilling a human until they become comfortable with the idea of killing another of their species, and not everyone can achieve this, that's why you have a training bleed (people opting out of training not due to injury)
Sure, some of the crew would display an aptitude for it, and could indeed become competent with a firearm after only a week or two of training, but not all of them, and this needs to be taken into account.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 15:19:11
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Violent Enforcer
Panama City, FL
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Flamethrowers FTW. They have a fairly good range, and set off anything they touch. Their only real drawback (their small fuel supply) would be erased by the fact that it's mounted on a ship and could have large fuel reserves.
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7500pts. 1750pts. 1500pts. 2000pts. 11000pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 15:29:08
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Noble of the Alter Kindred
United Kingdom
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Trained escort dolphins with powerdrills ps a powerdrill is like a powersword but with a DRILL!! Or you could just have a trained dolphin with a powerswordfish
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/16 15:32:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 17:21:13
Subject: Re:Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Ketara wrote:
Let's be honest, if you pick up 'temporary sailors' on the way and leave them behind before you hit US territory, no-one is going to notice or care. I cannot see a Somalian pirate attempting to prosecute through the US courts (because they would be the only ones with an interest in prosecuting in this case), and how would you collect evidence for it? If the security company comes and leaves in the space of a few days on the voyage, and nobody but the crew of that ship knows, how would you ever even begin to build a case for that?
The risk would be in personal liability under the Jones Act (ie. a temporary sailor, or family member, would sue for wrongful injury or death), at least as regards US admiralty law.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/16 20:07:19
Subject: Ships to begin taking armed guards against Somalian pirates.
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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mattyrm wrote:schadenfreude wrote:Mercenaries are not the answer. The crew of most merchant ships is about 20 sailors. Arm and train the ship's crew. For $100,000 a ship can buy a dozen M16, a dozen shotguns, 2 dozen bullet proof vests, and a half dozen fixed 50 caliber machine guns, toss in a mortar, and still have money left over to train the crew. With a bit of formal training the ship's crew would actually be better marksmen than the pirates. If pirates attempt to board the ship the lead pirate skiff would be carrying a half dozen pirates with no cover within their skiff going up against a dozen sailors behind hard cover with their enemy in a superior elevation. Attacking uphill against an entrenched opponent while outnumbered 2:1 won't end well for the pirates.
I disagree with some of this, as not everyone can be a soldier, so the same applies here.
Not everyone would display an aptitude for weapons training, much less a willingness to shoot people. That's why basic training for decent soldiers is far longer than a week, it's 32 weeks for RM commando's, but even regular grunts such as the USMC have a basic 13 week boot, or basic army infantry is about 9. And for that reason, because its not merely showing you how to shoot and work a firearm and a doing a bit of running. Its methodically drilling a human until they become comfortable with the idea of killing another of their species, and not everyone can achieve this, that's why you have a training bleed (people opting out of training not due to injury)
Sure, some of the crew would display an aptitude for it, and could indeed become competent with a firearm after only a week or two of training, but not all of them, and this needs to be taken into account.
Only about 60% of the crew needs to take up arms to provide a dozen armed sailors as a response team. The other 8 or so will still be needed to operate the ship, which means there should be at least 4 quality marksmen within the crew (Going off an average of 20% of a crew=good marksmen) The level of training needed for sailors to defend a ship is vastly different than the level of training needed before sending RM commandos into Mogadishu. I never touched a weapon when I was in boot camp (The firing range at great mistakes was closed for revocations when I went in). Most of the fire arms training that the navy does is outside of boot camp. Merchant marine sailors don't need the physical fitness requirements of royal marines to defend a static position. A huge chunk of merchant marine sailors are former navy sailors, and merchant marine sailors that have no stomach for violence have no business being on ships going through pirate infested waters. The crews of these ships are a lot tougher than most people give them credit for, and while they will not be ready to storm Mogadishu like they are a bunch of royal marines can you honestly tell me that merchant marine sailors are incapable of defending an entrenched position with a superior elevation and numerical superiority?
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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