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Hey guys,

I have two questions about WYSIWYG and would appreciate some help:

1) I have a unit of Sanguinary Guard and prefer the look of them with Death Masks; however, they don't have death masks in my list. Would it be alright to build them with the masks and just say they don't have them (I don't have any others units that have them so there would be no confusion)?

2) I have a SW list with Njal without terminator armour. Would it be alright to make my own custom Njal in power armour and not use any pieces from the actual model?

I do not believe there is a problem with having a model that has things on them modeled that you are not using, just need to be clear to your opponents about it.

As for Njal I would just run him as is, it may be the old model but it is still the same character, it is like how Dante and Mephiston back in 2nd edition were in Power Armour and the models today are the same model they were back then yet they now wear Artificer Armour.

Devane wrote:1) I have a unit of Sanguinary Guard and prefer the look of them with Death Masks; however, they don't have death masks in my list. Would it be alright to build them with the masks and just say they don't have them (I don't have any others units that have them so there would be no confusion)?

As with mos questions about WYSIWYG, it boils down to this: Does the model accurately reflect the army list entry?

Or, is what your opponent sees what he is getting?

Modeling things the unit doesn't have is no less breaking the idea of WYSIWYG than not modelling things that they do. Either way, the unit winds up not accurately representing what it is supposed to be.


Whether or not that is a problem is not a question that the people on this forum can answer. It's down to you and your opponent, or the person running the even in that case of organised play.

2) I have a SW list with Njal without terminator armour. Would it be alright to make my own custom Njal in power armour and not use any pieces from the actual model?

So long as the model accurately portrays Njal, the parts he is built from shouldn't be a huge problem.

For people that have played in "official" tournaments (whatever that means): is this rule something that everyone is expected to adhere to in tournaments?

If the tournament has stated WYSIWYG is required then it is a rule like any other you must follow.

I guess I was wondering more like... do "local" tourneys enforce this, or is it primarily a rule seen only in major tourneys?

All our local tourneys enforce this, starting at 24 players and up generally

Our local tourneys couldn't care less and the players would actually give you props for modelling somthing uber cool.

Hmmm... ok. How detailed do the models have to get? For instance, my CSM have frag grenades. Would I have to glue the little grenade bits that you get from the sprue somewhere on their bodies? Another example - Daemon Princes have power armor, but I chose to use the torso that isn't wearing it. Would this be a problem?

Or does the rule primarily reply to guns? As in, if the model has a lascannon, he cannot actually have a heavy bolter (on your army list).

The rule mainly applies to upgrades. All tactical marines come with a pistol and grenades, so you don't have to model it. However, if you trade these things for upgrades, like a powerfist, then you must model it.

-cgmckenzie

Tangent wrote:Hmmm... ok. How detailed do the models have to get? For instance, my CSM have frag grenades. Would I have to glue the little grenade bits that you get from the sprue somewhere on their bodies? Another example - Daemon Princes have power armor, but I chose to use the torso that isn't wearing it. Would this be a problem?

Or does the rule primarily reply to guns? As in, if the model has a lascannon, he cannot actually have a heavy bolter (on your army list).

It applies to upgrades, not just guns. Your Daemon Prince example is a bit different though--I feel like there is a lot of built-in leeway there. Under Iron Hide it describes how the Prince may be wearing his old Power Armor, or alternatively has a "magical aura", or maybe just really hard skin. Either way, the description seems open to very liberal interpretations. Same goes for Daemonic Flight, where it describes how the Prince may be flying on great wings or could be zipping around via magic. There are quite a few Daemonic upgrades that would be hard to represent with conventional modeling. So it's magic.

Tangent - most tournaments run two rules:

WYSIWYG for upgrades, and
Counts as

So no need to model basic equipment, like grenades on codex marines, but any upgrades like melta, power weapon, plasma etc MUST be modelled

Counts as is when you are, usually, running other cool models that "Count as" something else. THis can be an entire army or just a few units.

So using Wytches as DCA is "COunts as" - nothing more. They are not the true model, so are not WYSIWYG (i see wytches, I get DCA)

Counts as are usually ok, if they reasonably match the gear of the army and are approved by opponent/tourney organizer. But check before hand.

Ahhh, alright. Thanks for clearing that up! Makes things easier.

cgmckenzie wrote:The rule mainly applies to upgrades. All tactical marines come with a pistol and grenades, so you don't have to model it. However, if you trade these things for upgrades, like a powerfist, then you must model it.

This is the interpretation that gets bandied about online, based on the current rulebook's somewhat vague take on WYSIWYG.

From the tournament rules packages that I've seen over the years, it's more common for those that do address WYSIWYG to simply say 'All equipment must be represented on the model' or words to that effect.

Having said that, just how much slack there is in that depends entirely on the event. I would suspect that most event would have no problem with minor stuff like grenades not being represented on every model. Weapons can be a little more variable... Rather than carte blanche to ignore standard weapons, from what I've seen it's more common to allow a certain amount of leeway so long as most of the unit is correct, so that it's easy enough for the opponent to tell what's what.


At the end of the day, WYSIWYG is simply a tool that allows the game to be easier to play. So long as an opponent can look at your army and easily tell what is what, you will rarely have a problem with it.

I guess that's why the heavy weapons sprues sell for ridiculously high prices on eBay and the like.

What about Ork boyz? For instance I'd like to run a footslog list with all my AOBR sluggas as shootas but not sure how many frowns/turn downs I'll get.

Sluggas and SHootas are definitely different things, and need to be modeled appropriately.


You know what people REALLY care about? Stuff that is on a particular model. You REALLY need to know which models have a powerfist, which have a metla.

Squad wide upgrades people care a great deal less about. People usually are OK to agree that a scout squad has camo cloaks, if you say it has camo cloaks.

In my experience, no one cares even a little bit about things like grenades.

If you want to proxy your sluggas as shootas in a friendly game to try the list, knock yourself out. However, expect that stuff to only fly a couple times before people tell you to buy the models.

-cgmckenzie

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Sluggas and SHootas are definitely different things, and need to be modeled appropriately.

Technically BOYZ come with Slugga and choppa. Shootas are an upgrade. So saying AoBR boyz are basic equipment shootas and don't need to be modeled doesn't fly the same way as a tactical marine with a bolter/boltpistol.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tangent - most tournaments run two rules:

WYSIWYG for upgrades, and
Counts as

So no need to model basic equipment, like grenades on codex marines, but any upgrades like melta, power weapon, plasma etc MUST be modelled

Counts as is when you are, usually, running other cool models that "Count as" something else. THis can be an entire army or just a few units.

So using Wytches as DCA is "COunts as" - nothing more. They are not the true model, so are not WYSIWYG (i see wytches, I get DCA)

WYSIWYG applies to upgrades and wargear. If the Wyches have the same wargear as what is listed on the DCA profile, it is WYSIWYG for a DCA. Same as how power armored acolytes with boltguns can be modeled with standard spacemarines. Its 100% WYSIWYG.

Oh for crying out loud...
No, it is not. It is What I see (A wytch) is NOT what I get (a DCA)

Stop making this more complicated than it is. It is a counts as unit, thats it

Yes it is. BRB pg 47. "The rule is that such equipment must be visibly represented on the model so your opponents can see what they are facing. This concept is often refered to WYSIWYG..."

So it is What you see (a humanoid model equipped exactly like a DCA.) is what you get ( a DCA)

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yes it is. BRB pg 47. "The rule is that such equipment must be visibly represented on the model so your opponents can see what they are facing. This concept is often refered to WYSIWYG..."

It works at least as well emphasized like this.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yes it is. BRB pg 47. "The rule is that such equipment must be visibly represented on the model so your opponents can see what they are facing. This concept is often refered to WYSIWYG..."

So it is What you see (a humanoid model equipped exactly like a DCA.) is what you get ( a DCA)

Nothing allows you to swap one 'humanoid' for another. Your argument is basically I can sit *ANY* model on the table and it is WYSIWYG as long as the weapons are there.

A Wych is not a DCA, it is a wych. It is not the appropriate number, and the rules don't allow you to use it.

Page 3: Models
The citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40k are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow. Each model is an individual playing piece with its own capabilities. Models represent an enormous variety of troops ranging from Gretchen, the small, weak slaves of the Orks, to noble space marines the protectors of mandkind, to Wraithlords, mighty eldar constructs containing the souls of the dead. To represent all of these differences, each model has its own characteristic profile as described in the next section.

NOTHING allows you to use different rules or profile for any model. The rules only allow a given model to be used with the official rules as outlined by GW. To do so is cheating. WYSIWYG only applies to customizing the models... you never get the choice to swap models by the rules.

Now we of course have reasonableness, called 'counts as' but remember... swapping models puts *YOU* outside the rules and without a leg to stand on which means you better be asking permission.

Well in that case i concede on the model part. However i do not concede on that WYSIWYG is relating only to equipment.

Well... you have a model, and you have equipment. What else is there to WYSIWYG?

@Oblivious If you want to play that WYSIWYG should not apply just to wargear, than you better make sure your psykers have their psychic powers modeled. You better make sure any kind of special abilities or wargear you can't even see are modeled.

I'm arguing that WYSIWYG applies only to wargear mate.

And the short form of my name isn't Oblivious, Its Caboose.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:However i do not concede on that WYSIWYG is relating only to equipment.

How is that arguing WYSIWYG applies only to wargear? You specifically state you do NOT concede that WYSIWYG relates only to equipment. Equipment = Wargear.