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If you are using the wrong model, it doesnt matter what wargear you are using, you have already broken the rules... Same with conversions.

Just accept that using a different model can't be wysiwyg ever because every model may only be used with the correct rules. Using one model as another is at best, 'counts as' and at worst a shameful proxy.

Don't ever pull the RAW card with conversions or counts as because RAW you can't ever use them.

Happyjew wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:However i do not concede on that WYSIWYG is relating only to equipment.

How is that arguing WYSIWYG applies only to wargear? You specifically state you do NOT concede that WYSIWYG relates only to equipment. Equipment = Wargear.

Read all posts before you post next time.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

WYSIWYG applies to upgrades and wargear.

@nkelsch
And I'm saying WYSIWYG only relates to wargear/equipment. It is RAW. See pg 47. BRB. Tells you word for word it refers to equipment. So yes i bloody well can pull the RAW card on conversions being WYSIWYG.

So are the wyches WYSIWYG as DCA if they have the same wargear as listed on the DCA profile? Absolutely. Are they legal due to it being a wyche that was converted into a WYSIWYG DCA? Most likely yes. Its up to the TO. Or the other player if its friendly, who frankly if you convert it right will never know, i mean they look so similar. And if the other player doesn't allow it, don't play em, because obviously hes being a git. And gits are not fun to play with in a friendly game.

To summarize, WYSIWYG refers to the equipment. Not the model. RAW pg 47.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:However i do not concede on that WYSIWYG is relating only to equipment.

How is that arguing WYSIWYG applies only to wargear? You specifically state you do NOT concede that WYSIWYG relates only to equipment. Equipment = Wargear.

Read all posts before you post next time.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

WYSIWYG applies to upgrades and wargear.

@nkelsch
And I'm saying WYSIWYG only relates to wargear/equipment. It is RAW. See pg 47. BRB. Tells you word for word it refers to equipment. So yes i bloody well can pull the RAW card on conversions being WYSIWYG.

So are the wyches WYSIWYG as DCA if they have the same wargear as listed on the DCA profile? Absolutely. Are they legal due to it being a wyche that was converted into a WYSIWYG DCA? Most likely yes. Its up to the TO. Or the other player if its friendly, who frankly if you convert it right will never know, i mean they look so similar. And if the other player doesn't allow it, don't play em, because obviously hes being a git. And gits are not fun to play with in a friendly game.

To summarize, WYSIWYG refers to the equipment. Not the model. RAW pg 47.

The rulebook does not allow conversions and does not allow you to use models with different rules. Doing so makes you a cheater.

Page 47 doesn't overrule page 3.

Now of course people overlook page 3 based on rule of cool and 'counts as' but if you try to apply RAW page 47, then you have to apply RAW everywhere including page 3 or else you are a horrible dastardly cheater.

Nothing allows you to give a necron a choppa and makes it a wysiwyg ork. If you are not using the correct models then you can't even attempt to play the game or even begin to convert your models.

I still don't see how you claim friendly games and strive to abuse ignorant interpretations of RAW. Just accept you live and die by rule of cool with a counts as conversion that is not legal but probably ok.

Edit: I suppose I can give an ork boy a choppa and slugga and call him a warboss with 6+ save right? only wargear matters right? Wound profile, toughness and armor and any special rules assiciated with visual representation must also be modeled or use the correct models with those options via page 3. Anything else is cheating.

The part on pg 3 is talking about unit compositions and defining models for the rest of the book. It has nothing to do with wysiwyg.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:The part on pg 3 is talking about unit compositions and defining models for the rest of the book. It has nothing to do with wysiwyg.

-cgmckenzie

Wrong... Page 3 says models have specific rules. This means if you use a specific model, then you are only allowed to use a specific set of rules for that model. The book doesn't give you permission to do otherwise.

Nothing allows you to use any model as any other model... If you want to do that, you have to ask permission.

Hey if a ork warboss is armed with a slugga and a choppa and you use a boy armed with a slugga and a choppa. IT IS WYSIWYG.

If you want to debate the vagueness of pg 3 we can. But if you want to debate that its RAW that WYSIWYG only refers to equipment/wargear. Then no. Its specifically states in the BRB that it refers to wargear.

And actually it says "own characteristic profile" nothing about rules. If your going to argue RAW as least put the RAW.

It is simply defining units and models for the rest of the codex. You have units that are composed of models. The models in the unit have rules that interact with the individual model, not with the unit as a whole.

Nothing in there says that the model has to be the one that came in the box with the same name as the unit. Nothing to do with WYSIWYG, just getting the nomenclature ready for the rest of the rules.

-cgmckenzie

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Hey if a ork warboss is armed with a slugga and a choppa and you use a boy armed with a slugga and a choppa. IT IS WYSIWYG .

no... It is not.

Ork boys have specific rules which you must use with the ork boy model. Ork war bosses have specific rules you must use with the war boss model. You do not have the choice to swap them and claim your models are wysiwyg because you are breaking the rules and using the wrong models.

cgmckenzie wrote:It is simply defining units and models for the rest of the codex. You have units that are composed of models. The models in the unit have rules that interact with the individual model, not with the unit as a whole.

Nothing in there says that the model has to be the one that came in the box with the same name as the unit. Nothing to do with WYSIWYG, just getting the nomenclature ready for the rest of the rules.

-cgmckenzie

I agree completely with this statement.

nkelsch wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Hey if a ork warboss is armed with a slugga and a choppa and you use a boy armed with a slugga and a choppa. IT IS WYSIWYG .

no... It is not.

Ork boys have specific rules which you must use with the ork boy model. Ork war bosses have specific rules you must use with the war boss model. You do not have the choice to swap them and claim your models are wysiwyg because you are breaking the rules and using the wrong models.

Please tell me where under Wargear it lists "Specific ork rule" Because when I look under my wargear I get a list of, well wargear. Special Rules are the listed under (big suprise) Special Rules. And if you actually would read the rule for WYSIWYG only refers to Wargear, specifically weapons and wargear that they then call equipment.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:It is simply defining units and models for the rest of the codex. You have units that are composed of models. The models in the unit have rules that interact with the individual model, not with the unit as a whole.

Nothing in there says that the model has to be the one that came in the box with the same name as the unit. Nothing to do with WYSIWYG, just getting the nomenclature ready for the rest of the rules.

-cgmckenzie

I agree completely with this statement.

And you would be completely wrong. Every model has specific rules and you have no permission to use one model with another models rules. The rules are permissive. If you are using the wrong models, then you are not following the rules and can't be wysiwyg because you don't have the right model.

nkelsch, what I am getting out of your posts is that unless it is the exact model bought for a specific role then it is illegal to use for that role?

How about a model made from a kitbash that has all of the appropriate wargear modeled?

Saiisil wrote:nkelsch, what I am getting out of your posts is that unless it is the exact model bought for a specific role then it is illegal to use for that role?

How about a model made from a kitbash that has all of the appropriate wargear modeled?

Then RAW it is WYSIWYG.

Saiisil wrote:nkelsch, what I am getting out of your posts is that unless it is the exact model bought for a specific role then it is illegal to use for that role?

How about a model made from a kitbash that has all of the appropriate wargear modeled?

Well the rules don't allow kitbashes.

Now you can ask opponents to allow you to 'counts as' them as a set of rules... And depending on how well they match the rules, people may be willing to accept them. Or not when they are flat proxies. Either way you are operating outside the rules and need opponents permission.

Claiming a necron with a choppa is wysiwyg is absurdity as wysiwyg includes armor, toughness, wound profile, enhancements or any upgrade to the model. A war boss is no more a grot than a wraith lord is.

How do the rules not allow kitbashes? it is a model built to be a specific unit using all the right parts to make that unit, by what you are quoting on page 3 it falls in perfectly with the RAW of that as well as the RAW of 47 for WYSIWYG.

Oblivious - nope, raw it isnt wysiwyg, as applied to the context we're talking about.

Because the RAW youre missing is that page 47 is only talking about characters, not RnF models.

I'd suggest you stop claiming RAW when you havent even applied the rules at all correctly....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Oblivious - nope, raw it isnt wysiwyg, as applied to the context we're talking about.

Because the RAW youre missing is that page 47 is only talking about characters, not RnF models.

I'd suggest you stop claiming RAW when you havent even applied the rules at all correctly....

Oh in that case it doesnt even matter what your RnF look like. All my guardsmen will be spacemarines in one game. Orks in another. ECT. Thanks nos for pointing that out.

You've saved me thousands of dollars.

@Nkelsch

I'm converting a Harker model. He looks exactly the same as harker, except instead of being barechested he has a cadian torso, and cadian arms. Is that an illegal conversion in your mind? It is a kitbash, but it is entirely accurate, and entirely legal.

Head and legs - catachan kit
Arms and torso - cadian troopers kit
Heavy Bolter - cadian HWT kit

Tell me how this is illegal

Oblivious - your name is stunningly accurate. I assume your facetious reply was meant in jest?

You know the part about context of the discussion? This is about how WYSIWYG is usually applied in tournaments, which is that models must be wysiwyg, with appropriate wargear modelled. So the models must be wysiwyg (meaning DCA models for DCA) with the appropriate wargear modelled (so a melta must be a melta)

Those selfsame tournaments invariably have a "counts as" allowance. This is a SEPARATE concept, and allows your wytches (which are NOT wysyiwyg DCA, no matter how you misinterpret RAW) to "count as" DCA.

NOw, if you want you can TRY to get someone to accept an Ork Boy as a Space Marine, but unless rule of cool came into play you're likely to be laughed out of a tournament for doing so. Friendly game? Could likely care less.

motyak wrote:@Nkelsch

I'm converting a Harker model. He looks exactly the same as harker, except instead of being barechested he has a cadian torso, and cadian arms. Is that an illegal conversion in your mind? It is a kitbash, but it is entirely accurate, and entirely legal.

Head and legs - catachan kit
Arms and torso - cadian troopers kit
Heavy Bolter - cadian HWT kit

Tell me how this is illegal

The rules are permissive and the rules do not allow conversions.

Now most people follow rule of cool which allows for reasonable conversions... And allow 'counts as' models in most situations, but nothing allows converted models to be used in the ruleset.

You can't give a wraith lord a grot blasta and claim he is legal and wysiwyg. The rules don't allow it and it is absurd to do so. Claiming your model is wysiwyg hence legal means nothing if you don't follow the rule on page 3.

Theres a big difference between the legality of a wraithlord with grot bitz, and an imperial guard soldier with big arms, bare head, holding a heavy bolter all by his own. That is nothing close to my example. My example has all the equipment Harker has, it is the same size, (maybe minus a few mm in height) but you can change height by modifying the base (or is that illegal too?)

There is no rule on page 3. It describes the each model has a role, characteristics and what not. You do not need 'permission' to convert a model if it has exactly the same odds and ends as the real model, but looks a tad different.

I buy a finecast creed, and twist his arm down so he's basically doing the teapot dance (hand on his hip). I've converted him. He is now illegal?
If that isnt a good enough example, say I cut off his hand to give him binoculars, it is a model with different odds and ends. Are you trying to tell me you think this is against the rules?

Edit: No, turns out my guy is the same height. Even less difference

nkelsch wrote: The rulebook does not allow conversions and does not allow you to use models with different rules. Doing so makes you a cheater.

Now of course people overlook page 3 based on rule of cool and 'counts as' but if you try to apply RAW page 47, then you have to apply RAW everywhere including page 3 or else you are a horrible dastardly cheater.

Anything else is cheating.

So by your logic everytime I field a looted wagon in my Ork army I am cheating since there is no model made for it so I have no recourse but to use a Chimera or Rhino.

... Seriously people - read the context of the thread as nos pointed out. Yes, conversions are illegal by RAW. That doesn't mean a lot, however, because most tournaments have a Rule of Cool, and most friendly games it just doesn't matter.

For units there is no GW model for? ... There are no rules. But before you go trying to use a guardsman as a Tervigon, remember you have to get your opponents/TOs permission - and the Rule of Cool definitely applies there.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

nkelsch wrote: The rulebook does not allow conversions and does not allow you to use models with different rules. Doing so makes you a cheater.

Now of course people overlook page 3 based on rule of cool and 'counts as' but if you try to apply RAW page 47, then you have to apply RAW everywhere including page 3 or else you are a horrible dastardly cheater.

Anything else is cheating.

So by your logic everytime I field a looted wagon in my Ork army I am cheating since there is no model made for it so I have no recourse but to use a Chimera or Rhino.

Yep, you're also a cheater if you field tervigons. /sarcasm

rigeld2 wrote:... Yes, conversions are illegal by RAW. That doesn't mean a lot, however, because most tournaments have a Rule of Cool, and most friendly games it just doesn't matter.

No they are not illegal by RAW. Again for years the only option for Ork players that wanted to field a Battlewagon was to loot an imperial vehicle as there was no BW kit. Going by RAW no one was ever allowed to field one since the kit did not exist.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:... Yes, conversions are illegal by RAW. That doesn't mean a lot, however, because most tournaments have a Rule of Cool, and most friendly games it just doesn't matter.

No they are not illegal by RAW. Again for years the only option for Ork players that wanted to field a Battlewagon was to loot an imperial vehicle as there was no BW kit. Going by RAW no one was ever allowed to field one since the kit did not exist.

I play orks so I realize most of my army wouldn't be legal to field. But I am also not trying to browbeat my opponent into accepting that these necrons holding choppas are game legal and WYSIWYG because all that matters to be legal is the weapons.

If you are not using the correct models, you are not WYSIWYG. Now if you are using a conversion, then you are following 'counts as' and most people will be cool with it, but ask permission, and don't assume everyone likes or accepts your conversion, especially in tourneys. Don't browbeat people with RAW when your models are not even the correct models.

Boss - no, just because a model doesnt exist doesnt make "any" model legal "by RAW" - i suggest you reread what you are saying.

You only have permission to field citadel models. If there is no citadel model, then you have no permission to field those models. Period.

Now, IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD, does that matter? Well generally NO, as apparently you keep ignoring...tournaments will almost always *modify* the rules to allows conversions and counts-as, especially when there is no official GW model (and again, they *gasp* tend to put limits on what is acceptable) and in friendly games you have to come to an agreeement between you anyway.

Claiming something is RAW when it is the exact opposite is laughable. Accept the position - fielding a tervigon in a tournament is only permissable as counts-as, by definition, and as such is not RAW-BRB, but RAW-BRB as modified by that tournament. Does not make it general RAW by any stretch

RAW has nothing to do with the name of the model vs which unit it represents in game. There is no rule that says "wytches, they can only be wytches". There is also no permission to assemble the models as per the instructions in the box, to paint them, or put them on nice bases. If you do any of these things, then you are breaking the rules by your definition.

The rules that we do have regarding models, however, are all about consistency of in-game abilities, using only citadel models, and WYSIWYG for upgrades and wargear. The only rule about WYSIWYG is the one pertaining to characters and says that all displayable upgrades and wargear must be displayed(not showing digital weapons is ok but not showing bolter-> plasma is bad).

The model is defined in the book as being a part of a unit, but not as being made from bits pulled from the box the unit name. Claiming otherwise is wrong and has no basis in the rules, both RAW and RAI.

-cgmckenzie

@Caboose (there, i shortened your name correctly ), I concede that i did in fact misread your quote, and I apologize for the little bit of heckling on my part.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:... Yes, conversions are illegal by RAW. That doesn't mean a lot, however, because most tournaments have a Rule of Cool, and most friendly games it just doesn't matter.

No they are not illegal by RAW. Again for years the only option for Ork players that wanted to field a Battlewagon was to loot an imperial vehicle as there was no BW kit. Going by RAW no one was ever allowed to field one since the kit did not exist.

And the same is true currently for Tervigons. That doesn't change the fact that there are no rules allowing you to use conversions or non-citadel models.

But again, look at the context of the thread. A TO would usually allow a conversion, based on the Rule of Cool. In a friendly game, it just doesn't matter as long as your opponent is okay with it.

Can you cite the rule that allows conversions or non-citadel models?

rigeld2 wrote:But again, look at the context of the thread. A TO would usually allow a conversion, based on the Rule of Cool. In a friendly game, it just doesn't matter as long as your opponent is okay with it.

Which brings us back to the heart of the issue, which is that WYSIWYG is not, and has never been, primarily a rules issue. The current rules address it in a fairly vague fashion for characters and in some specific codexes, but ultimately it has never been governed by the core rules of the game.

WYSIWYG is simply a gaming convention intended to make the game easier to play. At it's core, it applies to everything that can be physically represented, because that's the meaning inherent in the name.

The fact that the rules only specifically ask for upgrades to be modelled doesn't change the fact that for a model to be fully WYSIWYG, it has to actually be WYSIWYG... meaning everything that can be modelled should be, and anything that shouldn't be there isn't.


How closely you choose to actually follow this convention ultimately comes down to personal preference and/or the will of whoever is running the event in the case of organised play.