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I have read "The First Heretic"...If you want to read it and discover for yourself leave this thread, if you have read it or don't care hit Spoiler button.

Yeah that scene was awesome, Costodes FTW.

My personal favorite of the series. Arron Dembski-Bowden is very much the top author in Black Library at the moment. The best scene was probably either when at Monarchia, when they were disgraced, or the second time the Legion knelt. Both were extremely symbolic and well written.
The ending left the story of Lorgar and Argel Tal very much an open book.

I would recommend finding a copy of Aurelian, even if the price is not exactly justified for someone who just wants the story.

I agree with your sentiments. I genuinely would have lost it if i had been the Guilliman and struck by a Brother especially after Daddy came down to give the whole "3:16" to him. I would have broken Lorgar over my knee smacked his ass raw, like the child he is, Infront of 100,000 Word Bearers.

Just as well, else we'd have one early traitor Legion, one dead Primarch, and about 40 dead Ultramarines, as well as a whole bunch of destroyed ships in orbit. The entire Word Bearers would have slaughtered everything in their path.

Nah, the Heresy would have happened without Erebus and Lorgar, but the Ultrasmurfs would have been on Terra and then an Ultra Cheese battle on Terra would have had Guilliman and Rogal at each others throats.

Could you imagine how saturated with Ultrasmurfs GW canon would be if that had happened. oh and yeah the Word bearers would have killed me for smacking Lorgar's rear, but it would be worth it.

Roboute guilliman is a prick, and I liked the Magnus and Lorgar's relationship.

I honestly felt like Guilliman got kind of a bad rep, but seeing as it's from the Word Bearers point of view it makes sense.

But yes, I've loved AD-B ever since the Night Lords series, and I'm patiently waiting for my World Eaters novel.

Oh and Corax is awesome, the book makes Lorgar look like a complete fool.

And indeed he is. It seems being a Primarch doesn't mean you are automatically emotionally mature after all.

Raulmichile wrote:
And indeed he is. It seems being a Primarch doesn't mean you are automatically emotionally mature after all.

His God/father destroyed his greatest achievement and added inuslt to injury by humiliating him in front of his brother. Any mature human being would be mentally damaged after that.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:
And indeed he is. It seems being a Primarch doesn't mean you are automatically emotionally mature after all.

His God/father destroyed his greatest achievement and added inuslt to injury by humiliating him in front of his brother. Any mature human being would be mentally damaged after that.

I find it strange that Lorgar's personality was the one that accerted the Primarch's lack of any emotional maturity. They were all effectively children in the bodies of demi-gods. Except for Ferrus, he's a manly man if I ever did see one. And Curze, unless you find a psychopathic serial killer hell bent on teaching some great lesson on order and fear to the Imperium is somehow similar to the emotional situation of a child.

iproxtaco wrote: And Curze, unless you find a psychopathic serial killer hell bent on teaching some great lesson on order and fear to the Imperium is somehow similar to the emotional situation of a child.

Actually, in thier way, psychopaths can be very much like a spoiled child personaility wise, they simply don't comprehend why other people should matter to them.

CorvidMP wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: And Curze, unless you find a psychopathic serial killer hell bent on teaching some great lesson on order and fear to the Imperium is somehow similar to the emotional situation of a child.

Actually, in thier way, psychopaths can be very much like a spoiled child personaility wise, they simply don't comprehend why other people should matter to them.

He essentially had a split personality. One side of him was at least half rational, the side of him that contained the drive to teach the lesson of order and obedience through fear. The other was completely different, concerned only with fulfilling his own personal desires, eating the hearts of random slaves for example.

Corax is in it for all of about a page, and still manages to come off as one of the most interesting characters in my view.

Go listen to Raven's Flight and be more interested

Soladrin wrote:Go listen to Raven's Flight and be more interested

I've tried. I really wish there was a transcript somewhere instead. The dude doing the reading isn't terrible, but it just makes me cringe.

Primarches become adults in ~3 years. That's one hell of a puberty.

Loved The First Heretic as well. The only issue that I had with it was Cadia and how comes it wasn't discovered before. The way Lorgar and the Word Bearers are talking it sounds as if it's a bazzilion miles from the edges of the Imperium when Medusa and Caliban appear to be relatively close to Cadia, but further out in space faring terms. I can understand why the eye hasn't been seen before as supposedly it blinks. But that was my only gripe and the events that occurred there were well told.

Seaward wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Go listen to Raven's Flight and be more interested

I've tried. I really wish there was a transcript somewhere instead. The dude doing the reading isn't terrible, but it just makes me cringe.

Really? IMO he's probably the best one they use (it's Toby longwerth isn't it?). Or is it more a problem of British accent and such?

Perturabo getting ONE LINE annoyed me.

Otherwise great book.

I enjoyed that book too.

I found myself really liking Argel tal which i didn't expect. He doesn't seem evil.

I'm reading nemesis now and finding it tough going...

This book made me love the Word Bearers, ADB seems to make you want to collect the army that he writes about.

I've wondered why the Eye of Terror was previously unknown before the Pilgrimage; wasn't Caliban right on the edge of the Eye?

Deathly Angel wrote:
I've wondered why the Eye of Terror was previously unknown before the Pilgrimage; wasn't Caliban right on the edge of the Eye?

Aaron explained that the Eye of Terror blinks so might not be visible all the time, I think it's mentioned in Realms of Chaos as well as Liber Chaotica amongst over sources. But it doesn't really explain Cadia, which as far as I can tell, should have been discovered previously. Medusa and Caliban are, like I said in my previous post, fairly close by. Unless Chaos hid it until Lorgar found it? The only thing that I can see which would prevent this would be the Pylons on the planet.

obsidianaura wrote:
I'm reading nemesis now and finding it tough going...

Read on dude, Nemesis is a great read and probably one of my favorites!

Soladrin wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Go listen to Raven's Flight and be more interested

I've tried. I really wish there was a transcript somewhere instead. The dude doing the reading isn't terrible, but it just makes me cringe.

Really? IMO he's probably the best one they use (it's Toby longwerth isn't it?). Or is it more a problem of British accent and such?

IMO, Toby narrates extremely well ... it's just the accents he gives the characters that makes my toes curl when I'm listening.

Dorn got slaughtered...

Soladrin wrote:Go listen to Raven's Flight and be more interested

Yeah that audio book is all kinds of awesome. Corax is fething nails!

I loved TFH, and I have read and enjoyed almost all of the HH books (other than the DA ones, they are just like really bad Sci Fi) They are excellent and engaging books, Legion and Prospero burns were fantastic, far far better than I expected when I first picked a BL book up, as I started playing warhammer first and though they were just going to be terrible spin off's of a game I enjoyed.

The thing that strikes me though, is simply this.

What IS the appeal of Chaos?!

The overwhelming theme seems to be that the Gods of Chaos are only interested in your misery, and if you give in to your base desires and worship them, you will be a miserable creature that they toy with and take delight in making suffer.

The loyalists however are honourable and noble, and in the case of poor old Vendatha, loyal and brave to the point of insanity, this made him extremely likeable. Magnus is cool and it adds to the wonderful tragedy that he winds up a DP, and I sorta felt sorry for Lorgar too, even though he is kinda pathetic, but compare guys like Corax and Sanguinius or even the somewhat annoying but still loyal Dorn to Emo whiny fethers like Night Haunter or Fulgrim or Angron and It seems a no brainer! All of those traits make you WANT the loyalists to kick some ass. I really dont understand the appeal of the dark gods, and Im a 32 year old man not a 12 year old "good guys must always win" kinda guy.

It just seems to me that, real life is full of misery and ignoble cowards, so shouldn't you want to side with the loyal, noble, stalwart, selfless people when your getting your daily dose of "escapism" in the 40k universe?

If I want the evil guys to win everything, I can read BBC news!

Wait.. how are Corax and Dorn less emo then Night Haunter, fulgrim or angron?

Angron only has rage.

Night Haunter isn't emo, he's flying rodent gak crazy.

And Fulgrim... yeah I'll give you that.

But Corax? He cries in ravens flight. And runs away after the HH.

Dorn pissed his pants because of Konrad Kurze. And went uber emo after the Emperor became a paraplegic.

Soladrin wrote:Wait.. how are Corax and Dorn less emo then Night Haunter, fulgrim or angron?

Angron only has rage.

Night Haunter isn't emo, he's flying rodent gak crazy.

And Fulgrim... yeah I'll give you that.

But Corax? He cries in ravens flight. And runs away after the HH.

Dorn pissed his pants because of Konrad Kurze. And went uber emo after the Emperor became a paraplegic.

Corax weeps for his dead kin thousands of them. This is not emo. I mean, I personally don't cry because I am ALL MAN, but I would not mock someone as "emo" because they shed a tear for a dead relative or friend.

The whole crux of the traitors story is emo because it boils down to being "angry at your dad" whereas the loyalists stick to their guns and defend their sire because of a feeling of loyalty or honour. This can be respected even if you disagree with it. I respect Taliban fighters who stick to their guns despite knowing they can't win a fight far more than the turncoats that swap sides.

Dorn "pissed his pants"?

Explain that one for me. It might have been lost in translation, you mean scared right?

Dorn has always been stalwart and brave, but how does this make him terrified? He stands up to Curze and almost comes to blows with him when they argue about their differing tactics for dealing with subjugated populations, how is this craven? A coward who was scared of him would have kept his mouth shut.

He got badly beat up by Curze, but what does that have to do with anything?

George Foreman lost to Ali, does that make him a pant pisser?

I haven't read the book yet. It seems like I might have a tough time reading it.
How can you not see the Eye of Terror? It's 1/6th the galaxy! It stains the skys of Earth.

I guess I'll have to see for myself. If it's bad I can always throw it in the "bad books that will never be finished" pile along with the Souldrinkers omnibus.