Just Read "The First heretic".

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**Soladrin**

mattyrm wrote:
Soladrin wrote:Wait.. how are Corax and Dorn less emo then Night Haunter, fulgrim or angron?

Angron only has rage.

Night Haunter isn't emo, he's flying rodent gak crazy.

And Fulgrim... yeah I'll give you that.

But Corax? He cries in ravens flight. And runs away after the HH.

Dorn pissed his pants because of Konrad Kurze. And went uber emo after the Emperor became a paraplegic.

Corax weeps for his dead kin thousands of them. This is not emo. I mean, I personally don't cry because I am ALL MAN, but I would not mock someone as "emo" because they shed a tear for a dead relative or friend.

The whole crux of the traitors story is emo because it boils down to being "angry at your dad" whereas the loyalists stick to their guns and defend their sire because of a feeling of loyalty or honour. This can be respected even if you disagree with it. I respect Taliban fighters who stick to their guns despite knowing they can't win a fight far more than the turncoats that swap sides.

Dorn "pissed his pants"?

Explain that one for me. It might have been lost in translation, you mean scared right?

Dorn has always been stalwart and brave, but how does this make him terrified? He stands up to Curze and almost comes to blows with him when they argue about their differing tactics for dealing with subjugated populations, how is this craven? A coward who was scared of him would have kept his mouth shut.

He got badly beat up by Curze, but what does that have to do with anything?

George Foreman lost to Ali, does that make him a pant pisser?

Dorn almost got killed by Konrand when Konrand learned fulgrim had shared his secret with Dorn. Dorn later admits to Malacador that he's been haunted by Konrand ever since. And that he is the only Primarch he fears.

Go listen to the Dark king/The Lightning tower

As for Corax, he's probably my second fav Primarch. That doesn't change the fact that he became a wreck after the HH.

I'm not Pro-chaos mind you

**clively**

Having read all of the heresy books, I think it's absolutely believable that half the legions turned from the emperor.

The guy was a class A screw up. The way he handled lorgar was absolutely pathetic. He knew what lorgar was up to and let it slide for 150 years before embarrassing him in the worst possible way.

Quite frankly, I think everything thus far points to the emporer having a complete disregard for anything but his own personal agenda to become a god.

So, yeah, let the IoM burn. Maybe something better will rise from its ashes. Meanwhile keep the corpse tied to the astronomican forever to prevent his ascension.

**Ronin**

Just saw this thread and only wanted to say this;

Out of all the Legions who turned to Chaos, hell, out of ALL the Legions, I hated the Word Bearers most. And I hated Lorgar more.

This book changed all that for me. While Lorgar still comes off as a bit of an immature child searching for someone who could appreciate his worship, the book itself was awesome and made me love the Legion as a whole.

Also, love Corax and Curze's appearance.

**obsidianaura**

I've always wondered how things went so wrong. The emperor has been on earth for millennia and he has shaped humanity all that time (eg the dragon of mars).

He obviously had a plan for humanity and knew of chaos, he knew of the webway and was working on a way to access it but never told his sons.

The emperor obviously trusted his sons as he gave them so much power, why would he not have told them what he was up to.

It was this more than anything else in my opinion that gave Choas a way in on their influence over Horus and the other traitors, I feel had they known the emperors plan they would have behaved themselves.

**Soladrin**

I finished Aurelian yesterday. I have to say, I have even more respect for Lorgar now, especialy how powerfull he is.

We now also have an anwser to primarch-daemon power.

BIG HUGE ASS SPOILER

Spoiler:

**obsidianaura**

Spoiler:

**iproxtaco**

obsidianaura wrote:What?! An'ggrath was killed by Lorgar?!

An'ggrath, the 50 feet tall, champion of Khorne, guardian to the skull thrown and lord of all bloodthirsters was beaten by Lorgar the panzy? How?! Did he choke on him?

This is terrible news indeed...

Spoilers? And no it isn't. Lorgar's weakness was in the mind, in body he was still a Primarch, wading through regular marines like grass.

Spoiler:

**Soladrin**

iproxtaco wrote:
obsidianaura wrote:What?! An'ggrath was killed by Lorgar?!

An'ggrath, the 50 feet tall, champion of Khorne, guardian to the skull thrown and lord of all bloodthirsters was beaten by Lorgar the panzy? How?! Did he choke on him?

This is terrible news indeed...

Spoilers? And no it isn't. Lorgar's weakness was in the mind, in body he was still a Primarch, wading through regular marines like grass.

Spoiler:

After Istvaan all his prohibitions were removed, he says so himself that they all need to let go of restraint and commit fully. If an ordinary Chapter Master and an Inquisitor can do it, so can a Primarch. Then there's also the point that it was a test from Khorne, the odds may may have been deliberately tipped in Lorgar's favour, although I find this unlikely.

I highly doubt that the odds were in his favour.... He was on a planet where he could hardly breathe to begin with.

Spoiler:

Also, Lorgar clearly states Magnus is the most powerfull Primarch.

**iproxtaco**

I just mean that the entire sequence involving the Chaos Gods is not exactly 100% trustworthy.

**Durza**

'Most powerful' has various interpretations. Magnus couldn't have united the traitors like Horus, so he is weaker in that regard.

**iproxtaco**

Durza wrote:'Most powerful' has various interpretations. Magnus couldn't have united the traitors like Horus, so he is weaker in that regard.

Truth. Magnus may well have been the most powerful Primarch in terms of combat, his fetes are incredible. Overall though, Horus takes the cake.

**Soladrin**

Yeah, this purely a remark on power. Because in the end, he's even worse then Lorgar, being a pawn of chaos since the very beginning, without ever knowing it and even thinking himself the manipulator.

**iproxtaco**

I don't think they were quite the same. Lorgar was a willing pawn, whilst Magnus was an unwitting pawn who thought he controlled the bargain.