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Greetings Dakka,

One of the more common discussions on this board revolves around the so-called 'legality' of ForgeWorld units and lists, but for a minute, I want us to teleport to Earth 2. On Earth 2, Forgeworld is perfectly legal everywhere and anywhere, no need to ask opponent permission or anything.

Keeping in mind we are currently on Earth 2, I'd like to ask Dakka about the actual viability of Forgeworld army lists. Things like the Drop Troop list and Dread Mob from IA:8 or the Tyrant's legion from IA:9, or the Death Korps list off their website. How good are these lists? Does anyone play them and have any stories? Do they perform well enough, or are they severely underpowered, or potentially grossly overpowered?

So Dakka, anyone attempted to run 'competitive' Forgeworld lists?

I haven't used any FW models myself, but I hear how some of them are over powered.....

bombboy1252 wrote:I haven't used any FW models myself, but I hear how some of them are over powered.....

I'm trying to avoid a discussion on single models. Some models are overpowered, others are underpowered. I want to know about people's feel for an entire Forgeworld list. That way an overpowered unit may be found in a list with underpowered everything else.

Blacksails wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:I haven't used any FW models myself, but I hear how most of them are over powered.....

I'm trying to avoid a discussion on single models. Some models are overpowered, others are underpowered. I want to know about people's feel for an entire Forgeworld list. That way an overpowered unit may be found in a list with underpowered everything else.

Their...I fixed myself. Going by what I hear on the forums, a FW list would effectively ROFLSTOMP the competition...

But as I said, I have never used the, so I'm going by what I hear...err...read...

The problem with FW is that some units are overpowerd wheres quite a few are underpowered. If you play with a full FW list chances are things will even out or be slighly underpowered. The problem with FW as is, is that you can chose to just add the OP stuff to a balanced codex and that is where most of the FW gripe is comming from.

The krieg list is a better blob-list than normal guard because you have stubborn built in, you get powerfists on sergeants and commissars, and everybody can swap their lasgun for ccws? (but nobody is crazy + rich enough to do the last part)
It is worse in most other ways, it has less firepower, lack lots of the best options normal guard get etc.

I don't own the latest IA books, so can't comment too much on the other lists, but I'm guessing it is the same thing, it does one thing better than the normal codex, and the rest worse

@bombboy1252: You have been misinformed, most of forgeworld's stuff is overcosted. Some things are competitive and a very select few are broken.

Off-topic, but one easy rule that stops close to all abuse of forgeworld stuff is to only allow one of each choice. Very little is broken in singles.

Any FW Guard list which allows Autocannons on Chimeras breaks the game. Guard already have plenty of firepower and upgrading their S6 light armour/anti infantry weapon into a long range medium anti tank weapon pushes them into a tier above everyone else. Not wanting to talk about broken units is fine, but it practice it only takes a single broken unit to cause a list to be broken.

For the most part yes Forgeworld have got a bit better rules wise, but they are still well behind the GW Rule Development guys in terms of quality. They are probably about where GW was in 4th edition, with 5th being a massive jump up in every area. Its also worth noting that Forgeworld and GW have separate rules developers, which despite their best intentions makes it hard to actually balance things properly. I'm still not sure where they are going with this, some rumors suggest that 6th will see a closer integration of the Forgeworld (notable Apocalypse) and GW rules but nothing so far has been really building towards that.

Tbh you won't get many meaningful replies to this. A competitive list is just another name for a good tournament list. As Forgeworld is banned at 99% of tournaments no one uses them in a competitive manner, so its going to be really hard to get proper feedback.

Some are overpowered

Some are underpowered

It is mainly preference imo although Elysians are pretty fun to play since they're built on air cav

Agreed its hard to get feedback since most tourneys dont allow it or even if they do I do not know many that field them

First of I have noe experience with this.

Second, on earth 2 you are meeting quite few of these lists since they are a) harder to get axess to. Moast casual players have never heard of them. b) they usualy cost more money with forge world parts.

On earth 2 there are people who use these lists: People who think they are cool and people who think that forge world lists are better then regular lists.

Those last people are douchebags* and is part of why earth 1 is the way it is. All it takes is some undercosted units and you have a broken spam army. With that being sead they would usualy just play a tip tier - low fluff etc. list from the other regular codexes so that is not really a problem.

Those first people who play them because they are cool gives a good dynamic to the game as the chances of meeting new and exiting lists will be healthy for the game. (Heaven knows there are enough marines out there. 3+ and rhinos are very common with half of the armies having it.)

A problem is that some models can be hard for other armies to handel because they ocupy some intereseting creative space.

2 things that comes to mind is the land raider achilles, and the small robot that explodes. The achilles is hard because it has really big guns, power of the machine spirit and it is really hard to take down due to special rules. For armies that have a hard time against regular LR this one will be even harder. Of course, it costs a -lott- of points, so it might be a trap. (People here in DD keep telling that LR are a bad unit sicne melta destroys it.)

I have met the little exploding robot as tyranids and to be honest, for costing under 50 points it was a way to good counter for 300 points of genestealers.

I know that the Tyrant legion has some special rules when it comes to coversaves etc. These might feel odd. I do not know how balanced they are, but I would think that they are balanced.

In short I think it would be alright to play on earth 2. Cooler models as there ismore variation. Perhaps you actualy met someone who painted there models as well seing as they pay more for it. I do not think FW would ruin anything.

(*For the love of good let us not make this a discusion about top tier lists vs fluff. We all know the arguments on both sides. If you want to discuss it make another thread.)

I've used both the Death Korp list and Armored Company, but neither are overpowered especially.

DKoK is definitely better, and definitely competitive. Hidded PFists in blobs, blobs with FnP, and Hades Breaching Drills are all quite powerful.

Armored Company is more of a fun novelty, IMO. Not really competitive.

I've played with and against FW lists very often. It might be that I play very "fluff" heavy armies but the armies are usually very underwhelming compared to a codex army list.

For example, I usually play the Krieg and Elysian list. While there are some very nasty combinations in the Krieg list (such as FNP powerblobs and the dreaded Hades Breaching drill), it's actually very gimicky and the fact that you lose some of the better options of the guard codex in both IA lists such as the Chimera for both lists and all heavy support from the IG codex for the Elysians, it suddenly makes the army much harder to play and forces you to play in a certain style.

The IA8 dread mob is incredibly balanced. In the end it's very similiar to the codex Ork dread/kan spam except at higher point levels you can have more and bigger dreads/kanz making for a more thematic list. And the Meka-Dread can have a KFF too which means more Dreads and less meks! Other than that, playing against it, it just plays like a regular dread mob in my experience, but then again, I have a very limited pool of opponents that use IA lists.

I've only played using and against the badab war IA9/IA10 lists once when I was playing a campaign using them. The IA9 list was so bad that I stuck with using the codex:space marine list (perhaps I'm just an awful player however...) It's appeal is you can take Space Marines with guard, but you can only take guard conscripts and only certain variants of guard tanks (like only the vanilla russ + exterminator etc.) Kinda funny if you own a lot of marines I guess, but the guard side of the list is pretty bad if you own a lot of guard like I do.

the IA10 list is quite powerful, but the siege objective rule just makes it completely underwhelming. An opponent can pretty much turtle around the objective (which is present regardless of mission) and you cannot do better than draw if you do not capture that objective (which your opponent places anywhere in their deployment zone AND you have no deepstrike elements in the entire list except for the piss-poor Caestus which costs over 300 points) AND to top that, you need to actually win the regular objectives.

So in my experience, the lists are fun for campaigns, but frustrating to use if you're playing to win. Especially the two badab war lists, which we just switched to using regular marine codices due to the high amount of stalemates.

One last thing, the IA7 Chaos List with plague zombies is brutal. I've never beaten the FNP zombie spam with my kriegsmen so perhaps that's something to consider?

bombboy1252 wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:I haven't used any FW models myself, but I hear how most of them are over powered.....

I'm trying to avoid a discussion on single models. Some models are overpowered, others are underpowered. I want to know about people's feel for an entire Forgeworld list. That way an overpowered unit may be found in a list with underpowered everything else.

Their...I fixed myself. Going by what I hear on the forums, a FW list would effectively ROFLSTOMP the competition...

But as I said, I have never used the, so I'm going by what I hear...err...read...

You have heard very VERY wrong.

95% of FW rules are underpowered or just right. 5% are overpowered or undercosted. Unfortunantly that 5% ruins it for everyone.



In general, the FW army lists have good internal balance and mesh well with other 40k armies(at least at the time of the list being written)

Some of the FW lists need updating because of the evolving meta game or a new edition or a new parent codex(lost of FW lists just alter an existing codex)

Hades Drills can be taken by standard Codices as per recent rules update...I'll be finding out how fun they are when my Veteran Heretics run out of them.

I don't think FW is broken or over powered barr a few units...but still, they are far less than some of the new Codices.

Forge World lists are more fluff driven and have more of a themed feel to them moreso than competition. This is why I like Kreig and Elysians because they retain a certain character you can't get from the latest Guard Codex.

(Yea its competitive, but totally devoid of character compared to the last Codex.)

I play death korps of Kreig and i do not find it overpowered at all. Its just a list themed for an overwhelming infantry assault preceded by a huge artillery bombardment. It doesnt have the really good ig vehicles like the codex, but makes up for it by having better infantry.

I have no idea what units in the IA books people are talking about that are overpowered. Seriously. People are quoting "5% are broken", but what units are? LR Achilles seems pretty powerful, but according to some Dakka sources, it's not actually that good for its point cost. At least, not much better than a standard LR.

I cannot speak from experience regarding full lists, but the Build Around characters from Badab are pretty tame compared with standard options from other marine codices. We're running Badab campaign, and never have I felt like any of the generals were any more broken then your standard Wolf Lord, Vulkan, etc... They just add an angle that people aren't ready to fight, which is why people get up in arms about it. "THIS ISN'T WHAT I'M USED TO, SO IT'S BORKEN".

People on this forum need to stop offering opinions when they've never experienced things for themselves. Play some games with the units proxied, and see how they feel before saying there are balance issues. It actually leads to some really fun and fluffy games, and teaches you to think on your feet instead of following the standard rote of LongFangSpam vs. Leafblower vs. Venomspam vs. DraigoWing.

A lott of the badap war characters are very cool as well. It is a pitty I do not meet them more often. They are full of flavour!

I think a lot of people are starting to see that FW lists/units/characters are actually not overpowered or game breaking. They're just different. Granted, people aren't used to something like the Land Raider Achilles which is near impervious to most weapons, but really doesn't bring a lot to the table for its cost.

Then again, the inclusion of superheavies and flyers in normal lists FW will often mean that if you want to play a FW list, you'll have to ignore those choices and take only 'normal' units.

I for one am dying to find a group of people who will play with FW stuff. Not necessarily their models, but using their rules with suitable conversions and WYSIWYG models (like playing a DKOK list with normal cadians).

Blacksails wrote:I think a lot of people are starting to see that FW lists/units/characters are actually not overpowered or game breaking. They're just different. Granted, people aren't used to something like the Land Raider Achilles which is near impervious to most weapons, but really doesn't bring a lot to the table for its cost.

Then again, the inclusion of superheavies and flyers in normal lists FW will often mean that if you want to play a FW list, you'll have to ignore those choices and take only 'normal' units.

I for one am dying to find a group of people who will play with FW stuff. Not necessarily their models, but using their rules with suitable conversions and WYSIWYG models (like playing a DKOK list with normal cadians).

You should come live in England. Pretty much everyone has/uses FW stuff (both the rules and models!) and there's never any drama about it.

Snarky wrote:

Blacksails wrote:I think a lot of people are starting to see that FW lists/units/characters are actually not overpowered or game breaking. They're just different. Granted, people aren't used to something like the Land Raider Achilles which is near impervious to most weapons, but really doesn't bring a lot to the table for its cost.

Then again, the inclusion of superheavies and flyers in normal lists FW will often mean that if you want to play a FW list, you'll have to ignore those choices and take only 'normal' units.

I for one am dying to find a group of people who will play with FW stuff. Not necessarily their models, but using their rules with suitable conversions and WYSIWYG models (like playing a DKOK list with normal cadians).

You should come live in England. Pretty much everyone has/uses FW stuff (both the rules and models!) and there's never any drama about it.

I want to move to England now...

I actually wish that Forgeworld was an extension of the Codexes, as Games Workshop can never seem to get their asses in gear and put out a bunch of codexes. I know they say, well we have Warhammer and Warhammer 40k, but I know other companies that do a better job keeping things up to date and fair . Sorry for the soap box, that said. I think Forgeworld is a way to do this. I bought Eldar Wasps and Hornets as well as the new aspect they came out with and the Wraithseer. Now the models are cool, but I do not think that they are overpowered. I agree they have their weakpoints and their strengths, but after seeing the Grey Knights codex, one could hardly argue for overpowered anything. Just my opinion. I wish Forgeworld was more accepted her as well. I think that has more to do with they only sell it in Uk or Europe, so it is harder to get here and less people have it, so more people cry foul when others that have it want to use it. Just my opinion. Cheers.

latrodectus wrote:I have no idea what units in the IA books people are talking about that are overpowered. Seriously. People are quoting "5% are broken", but what units are? LR Achilles seems pretty powerful, but according to some Dakka sources, it's not actually that good for its point cost. At least, not much better than a standard LR.

Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be able to deep strike on turn one and assault...

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I actually wish that Forgeworld was an extension of the Codexes, as Games Workshop can never seem to get their asses in gear and put out a bunch of codexes. I know they say, well we have Warhammer and Warhammer 40k, but I know other companies that do a better job keeping things up to date and fair . Sorry for the soap box, that said. I think Forgeworld is a way to do this. I bought Eldar Wasps and Hornets as well as the new aspect they came out with and the Wraithseer. Now the models are cool, but I do not think that they are overpowered. I agree they have their weakpoints and their strengths, but after seeing the Grey Knights codex, one could hardly argue for overpowered anything. Just my opinion. I wish Forgeworld was more accepted her as well. I think that has more to do with they only sell it in Uk or Europe, so it is harder to get here and less people have it, so more people cry foul when others that have it want to use it. Just my opinion. Cheers.

It is rumored that GW will be making an announcement, sometime in the relativly near future, that non-super heavy or Flyer models will be legal in all GW tournaments(including Ard Boyz) and will also say that all IA lists will be viewed as official army lists on par with Codexs.


I think this to be VERY likely, especially since Chaos Dwarves are now a legal army with the release of Tarmukhan. GW is selling the book on their website.

"Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be able to deep strike on turn one and assault..." While I agree, the general consesus is that drop pods are not very good.

Also, there is a 1 in 6 chance that that dread will be imobeliced.

I for once do not want to waste my elite slot in a SM army. The fast attack is OK, but I do not think of it as unproblematic.

The last Imperial Armour (2?) releaded was very nice as it has 40k aproved stamps on all the normal things. I do not know if that is the norm with the old books, but it was nice to see it here.

I'm working on building a renegade gaurd army with the rules from FW that I can flip to IG if its not allowed in a tourney. I presonally think that the forgeworld rules should be accepted for these reasons;

1. Its the same company as GW
2. many other units in the game are already OP or UP thats just the way it goes, even in real war things work the same way. Anti-tank rounds fired from a M1 garant become less effective when tanks start being built with 45 degree angles that help to direct the energy of impact any from the body of tank.
3. Games Workshop continues to find new ways to limit a fun and creative game (such as the rule for tourneys that says that at least 80% of all models must be GW product) and any way that we can move further away from that without compromising the fun of the game should be looked at as increasing the entire hobby.
4. It looks cool. lol thats just to remind that this is IMHO

Niiai wrote:"Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be able to deep strike on turn one and assault..." While I agree, the general consesus is that drop pods are not very good.

Drop Pods that Dreadnoughts can assault out of are something different to normal ones; they're much better.

Niiai wrote:
Also, there is a 1 in 6 chance that that dread will be imobeliced.

No there's not. Where are you getting that from?

My copy of imperial armour apocalypse second edition has not arrived yet, but from what i remember reading on some forums is that the lucius pattern droppod was updated and now has a chance to immobilize a dread if it assaults out of it in addition to its point cost being raised.

Walrus if you read the updated verson Imperial Armour Apocalupse secind edition page 32 under assault vehicle, if they launch an assault that turn it counts as dangerus terain.

Dangerus terain for walkers if theyf ail = imobeliced

While it is cool and all, espesialy if you have a blood angel contemtor pattern dreadnought inside it with blood talons on it you are still paying more points then what a good landraider cost for the 1 in 6 chance that it will not work. True you can shave some 90 points by taking a regular dreadnought but I am not that conserned getting charge by a regular dreadnought with moast of my armies.

CC dreadnought that is imobeliced in the oponents deployment zone = priceless

Edit: I do not know about the other Imperial Armour books but this second edition books seems very fine from where I am standing. At least the 40k stamped bits. I do not play apocalypse so I cannot speak for those units.

Secondary question for you all.

Do you/would you comment on a FW army list posted in the army list section here? I know next to no one does it and those who do rarely get any comments. I, for one, would think that by posting more army lists using FW lists would generate more discussion and open people up to the idea a little more. Obviously the post would have to include a small preamble to go over any specifics or special rules/units.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I would.
I'd love to see more Forge World lists and acceptance, the models are amazing and the rules can be really fun.
Allows more armies, so more variation and fun match ups.

Though, people who spam (undercosted) stuff can be difficult, once FW get their rules and points sorted, like they're doing now, it'll be great.