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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Niiai wrote:
Also, there is a 1 in 6 chance that that dread will be imobeliced.

No there's not. Where are you getting that from?

The new Apoc 2nd Ed rules imposes a Dangerous Terrain check on the Dread apparently.

Slayersan wrote:My copy of imperial armour apocalypse second edition has not arrived yet, but from what i remember reading on some forums is that the lucius pattern droppod was updated and now has a chance to immobilize a dread if it assaults out of it in addition to its point cost being raised.

What is the new pts cost? It used to be 50pts, which was just way to cheap. The new rule helps, but it could still stand a price-increase.

I can't speak to 40k or Fantasy, but the ForgeWorld Battlefleet Gothic Tau Fleet list is widely considered to be usable by just about everyone without opponent permission. It's generally a better fleet list than the GW one, but it isn't overpowered. So that's one example, at least, of balanced FW rules. I don't know about the rest of their stuff though.

IcyCool wrote:I can't speak to 40k or Fantasy, but the ForgeWorld Battlefleet Gothic Tau Fleet list is widely considered to be usable by just about everyone without opponent permission. It's generally a better fleet list than the GW one, but it isn't overpowered. So that's one example, at least, of balanced FW rules. I don't know about the rest of their stuff though.

The FW BFG list is a solid choice and works better at sub-1500pts, while the GW Tau list works better at 1500pts and up. The GW Tau is probably one of the strongest in BFG.

As with anything else if an opponent were not to go overboard with the "overpowered" units I would have no issues with him/her using FW rules. In the end it's about having fun.

I'm genuinely curious what everyone thinks are the overpowered FW units/rules/lists. We've already established the Lucius Pattern Pod is op due to deep-striking and assaulting dreads.

Some people find the Achilles overpowered I guess. What else?

Blacksails wrote:I'm genuinely curious what everyone thinks are the overpowered FW units/rules/lists. We've already established the Lucius Pattern Pod is op due to deep-striking and assaulting dreads.

Some people find the Achilles overpowered I guess. What else?

Caestus Assault Ram. Can carry 10 Terminators and can travel 24" in one movement phase. Is also a skimmer.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Blacksails wrote:I'm genuinely curious what everyone thinks are the overpowered FW units/rules/lists. We've already established the Lucius Pattern Pod is op due to deep-striking and assaulting dreads.

Some people find the Achilles overpowered I guess. What else?

Caestus Assault Ram. Can carry 10 Terminators and can travel 24" in one movement phase. Is also a skimmer.

It is also around 300pts, so no, it isn't broken at all. It was broken in its first incarnation, when it was cheaper than a stormraven, but then it was also labeled "experimental"

The assault ram is very bad. It has 13 armour and is a flyer so no hiding. And then you have 400 point of terminators on the grounnd.

Space wolves GH could perhaps benefit from it since you are gamling with less points.

I say the little car that explodes is good. :-)

Niiai wrote:The assault ram is very bad. It has 13 armour and is a flyer so no hiding. And then you have 400 point of terminators on the grounnd.

Space wolves GH could perhaps benefit from it since you are gamling with less points.

I say the little car that explodes is good. :-)

And then you get first turn and have 9 hammernators and a character of your choice in the enemy deployment zone. Sure, it's expensive, but damn it's lethal.

its also a Flyer so, at the moment anyway, its prevented from use in anything but an Appoc game.

AMWalrus, that is nothing that the SW codex cannot do from before. Only it is cheaper.

Niiai wrote:AMWalrus, that is nothing that the SW codex cannot do from before. Only it is cheaper.

The difference being that drop pods scatter. You also have the added durability of the ram itself before the terminators start taking damage, and if the ram survives you get to kill 2 targets of your choice.

The Assault Ram is 485 points with a squad of terminators inside them. It's also a Fast, Skimmer NOT a Flyer so it does not benefit from the Flyer rule from apocalypse.

Also it moves 36" flat out rather than the usual 24" (although you can't disembark after moving flatout even with the assault ramp).

So it's still 12" like the Land Raider for the assault ramp, but it has less armour, is more expensive and is more difficult to hide and doesn't most importantly have the Flyer rule, meaning that you can't just teleport it anywhere on the table.

The dreadmob, is actually a pretty decent army, even if you do stupid stuff like fielding 15 kanz and dreads, it's not going to break anyones game, and their shooting power hardly compares to actual gunline armies. Losing Nobz for the entire army compensates easily for the extra armor.

If you use the entire FW arsenal, Cherry-picking stupidly overpowered(actually mostly underpriced) stuff will totally break the game:
- maxed squadrons of Gruntrucks with Supa-Skorchas(= Inferno Cannon!)
- maxed mekboy junkas as artillery(grot bombs are much cheaper and just as effective as a SAG) and KFF provider
- maxed grot tank mobs with grotzookas
- all rokkit grot mega tanks - thats a total of 8 BS3 rokkits shooting at up to six targets for 165 points, plus additional stuff like scrap canisters
- tripple big trakks with supa-kannons

Add some gretchin for scoring, and at 2000 points you'll have yourself a shooty army that will make an imperial leafblower pale in comparison - 28 small blasts, eight large blasts, 10 templates with 12" range on fast vehicles and a boatload of rokkits to go with that. And all of that is mounted on a total 33 vehicles protected by KFF or 5++ saves, most of them AV11/12

It is easy to say they are overpowered
as I really only play IG these days, I can comment on them.

DKOK are strong, but are like green tide, you lose many of the things that I use in my infantry guard list to make it very effective, in exchange you get stubborn and power fists aplenty (and +1 WS)
I don't see this army absolutely dominating, green tide orcs or khorne are a serious problem through weight of attacks. and you lack the heavier long range firepower to really hamstring mech lists.

Elysium drop troops are IMHO pretty well balanced even in regular games, basically its normal IG, without tanks, and all your chimeras are slightly better (and generally don't get cover because they are high off the board)

Grundz wrote:It is easy to say they are overpowered
as I really only play IG these days, I can comment on them.

DKOK are strong, but are like green tide, you lose many of the things that I use in my infantry guard list to make it very effective, in exchange you get stubborn and power fists aplenty (and +1 WS)
I don't see this army absolutely dominating, green tide orcs or khorne are a serious problem through weight of attacks. and you lack the heavier long range firepower to really hamstring mech lists.

Elysium drop troops are IMHO pretty well balanced even in regular games, basically its normal IG, without tanks, and all your chimeras are slightly better (and generally don't get cover because they are high off the board)

Uhh... What?

Death Korps don't get stubborn. They have the Die Hards rule which is quite different from stubborn. And Elysian Drop Troops don't get Chimeras.

Snarky wrote:The Assault Ram is 485 points with a squad of terminators inside them. It's also a Fast, Skimmer NOT a Flyer so it does not benefit from the Flyer rule from apocalypse.

Also it moves 36" flat out rather than the usual 24" (although you can't disembark after moving flatout even with the assault ramp).

So it's still 12" like the Land Raider for the assault ramp, but it has less armour, is more expensive and is more difficult to hide and doesn't most importantly have the Flyer rule, meaning that you can't just teleport it anywhere on the table.

36" flat out round one, you get a 4+ cover save, you ignore terrain while moving and even if your ram gets shot down, you have 10 TH/SS terminators in the enemy deployment zone.

In fact, just for giggles:

Emperor's Champion, AAC, NMTO - 140

Crusader Squad, Lascannon - 95

Crusader Squad, Lascannon - 95

Crusader Squad, Missile Launcher - 90

10x Assault Terminators, 5x LC 5x TH/SS, Furious Charge + Caestus Assault Ram - 665

10x Assault Terminators, 5x LC 5x TH/SS, Furious Charge + Caestus Assault Ram - 665

1750 on the spot.

That's still 20 Assault Terminators with rerolls to hit vs. everyone with a weapon skill in your deployment zone turn 1. You also get a 4+ cover on your AV13 Ceramite Shielding flyer...

Snarky wrote:Uhh... What?

Death Korps don't get stubborn. They have the Die Hards rule which is quite different from stubborn. And Elysian Drop Troops don't get Chimeras.

Die Hards = stubborn, you ignore all negative modifiers in assault, in an army which can reroll with a commisar the difference is neglible

I guess Making the comparison between two 12 front armor transports with virtually identicle stats besides flyer is too complex for some people, i appologize.

Grundz wrote:

Snarky wrote:Uhh... What?

Death Korps don't get stubborn. They have the Die Hards rule which is quite different from stubborn. And Elysian Drop Troops don't get Chimeras.

Die Hards = stubborn, you ignore all negative modifiers in assault, in an army which can reroll with a commisar the difference is neglible

I guess Making the comparison between two 12 front armor transports with virtually identicle stats besides flyer is too complex for some people, i appologize.

Stubborn is for all modifiers not just assault. Die Hards specifies that you can only take unmodified for assault only (so you still take -1 from pinning from ordnance barrage etc.) so they're quite different.

A Chimera is completely different to a Valkyrie. They both have transport capacity 12 and that is it. You're comparing apples to oranges when they are two completely different things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Snarky wrote:The Assault Ram is 485 points with a squad of terminators inside them. It's also a Fast, Skimmer NOT a Flyer so it does not benefit from the Flyer rule from apocalypse.

Also it moves 36" flat out rather than the usual 24" (although you can't disembark after moving flatout even with the assault ramp).

So it's still 12" like the Land Raider for the assault ramp, but it has less armour, is more expensive and is more difficult to hide and doesn't most importantly have the Flyer rule, meaning that you can't just teleport it anywhere on the table.

36" flat out round one, you get a 4+ cover save, you ignore terrain while moving and even if your ram gets shot down, you have 10 TH/SS terminators in the enemy deployment zone.

In fact, just for giggles:

Emperor's Champion, AAC, NMTO - 140

Crusader Squad, Lascannon - 95

Crusader Squad, Lascannon - 95

Crusader Squad, Missile Launcher - 90

10x Assault Terminators, 5x LC 5x TH/SS, Furious Charge + Caestus Assault Ram - 665

10x Assault Terminators, 5x LC 5x TH/SS, Furious Charge + Caestus Assault Ram - 665

1750 on the spot.

That's still 20 Assault Terminators with rerolls to hit vs. everyone with a weapon skill in your deployment zone turn 1. You also get a 4+ cover on your AV13 Ceramite Shielding flyer...

BTW, I'm not saying that the Caestus is bad or anything but can't you do that with Stormravens already with BA and GK?

I absolutely love the Imperial Armor codexes. I only have IA 8, but the Elysian list and Ork list are both wonderful. The dread mob list can be powerful, but if you make an anti-walker list, then there you go. It does walker spam or mech very well because every infantry unit gets a dedicated transport now and every infantry unit can take a mek to keep things running. The Elysian list can alpha strike like nobodies business, but has issues with staying power. It can also run circles around anyone.

I don't find the CAR to be particularly OP. Its really just a Stormraven+.

Honestly, I think most people just lump all FW in with a small number of weird/wonky/OP units they put out and ignore the rest. Units like the new Land Raider Proteus are a cool concept, far from OP, compete with an already important FOC slot and can add a lot of flavour.