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Hi,

I've been having trouble working this one out. I've heard some convincing arguments, for and against. What do you all think?

The gloom prism that Necron Spyders can take negates a psychic power that targets it or a unit within 3" on a roll of 4+.
Does this work against Jaws of the world wolf?

For:
While the unit is not targeted in the usual mannor, as in a target is not declared, the power is still used as a shooting attack and the unit that is hit with the power is considered targeted. Thus, you can use the gloam to shut the whole power down. And this would occur as the first unit is hit with it.

Against:
Since no unit is declared, it does not actually target a unit therefore the gloom prism does not work.


Any ideas? (Necrons Need this Psychic defense so please FAQ Gods, please rule justly)

SW FAQ wrote:Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Woo! Then Gloom works. Thanks man, that saves my bacon a bit

Sorry to burst your bubble Zombiejoe, but it doesn't work against JAWS.

The timing of the Gloom prism is as follows,

"Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed. On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect."

The problem with JAWS and the subsequent FAQ regarding targetting is that the target model is not determined until after the Psychic test has already been passed, after the line has already been drawn, and after the first model to be affected by the power has been determined.

As opposed to a power like Living Lightning where you declare a target, check LoS, and then attempt a psychic test at which time the Canoptek Spyder can use the Gloom prism.

This is muddied even further by the fact that JAWS targetting FAQ is based on a target model, not a unit.

Because of what I think as at the minimum, a badly worded rule for an entire army of crappy initiative models, I would allow the 4+ roll from Gloom prism for the FAQ targetted model. However, I would not allow it for any other model that the line touched because, they were not targeted as the requirement for the Gloom prism to work.

Brother Ramses wrote:The problem with JAWS and the subsequent FAQ regarding targetting is that the target model is not determined until after the Psychic test has already been passed

Why do you say this? Do they get to draw the line if the target is out of range, then?

And if you shut the power down for one unit, why would it not shut down the power to all the others. That makes little sense to me. And honestly what good is a psychic defense that only works on "some" powers?

I agree the wording is badily written and also terrible essential when Necrons get so badily mauled by this power.

I don't see how it doesn't work though. I don't see how the order makes a difference. Since even if the target was declared before the power was passed. You can't nullify the psychic test until after it has been passed. So your argument doesn't make much sense to me.

Option 1: They target unit, pass test, then I null it.
Option 2: They pass test, target unit, then I null it.

Eitherway I have nulled the power after it has been passed. And if you target a model, he is still part of the unit and therefore a part of the unit targeted.

ZombieJoe wrote:And if you target a model, he is still part of the unit and therefore a part of the unit targeted.

Not really, and I missed this when I initially read it too.

There is a pretty big difference between targeting a unit and targeting a particular model in the unit.

Interesting.

Jaws is a BS power, a mistake.

Whenever there is any doubt, rule against Jaws.

ZombieJoe wrote:And if you shut the power down for one unit, why would it not shut down the power to all the others. That makes little sense to me. And honestly what good is a psychic defense that only works on "some" powers?

I would say if you were able to shut down the power then yes it is shut down for everything it would hit. That being said if you failed the shut it down you would not get another roll if it happened to also hit a unit of Immortals behind the Spyder, that was my interpretation of what he said.

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The problem with JAWS and the subsequent FAQ regarding targetting is that the target model is not determined until after the Psychic test has already been passed

Why do you say this? Do they get to draw the line if the target is out of range, then?

Sort of; but there is no point to casting the power if you do.

The way jaws works is you draw the line; the first unit the line touches is the target unit(Target is not declared, ever; it is incidental and determines the target for the rest of the unit, if the RP is attached to a unit), you then hit every model touched by the line.

So if the Spyder/unit within 3" of the spyder is not the unit with the first model touched by the line, then the spyder/unit within 3" of the spyder is not the target of the power and cannot negate the power.

Should the Spyder or unit within 3" of the spyder be the first model touched; then the power is wholly negated(based on gloom prism wording).

So to recap:

Declare the power(Jaws)
Pass the test
Draw the line
If first model touched is not the spyder/unit within 3" carry on as normal.
If first model touched is the spyder/unit within 3" take Gloom Prism test to possibly negate; if not negated: carry on as normal.
If you Carry on as Normal; then each model on the line takes an Initiative test or is removed from play(no returns for thawn, Yarrick, or Reanimation Protocols, EW does nothing to prevent).
If negated; it is wholly negated no models suffer effect.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The problem with JAWS and the subsequent FAQ regarding targetting is that the target model is not determined until after the Psychic test has already been passed

Why do you say this? Do they get to draw the line if the target is out of range, then?

Sort of; but there is no point to casting the power if you do.

The way jaws works is you draw the line; the first unit the line touches is the target unit(Target is not declared, ever; it is incidental and determines the target for the rest of the unit, if the RP is attached to a unit), you then hit every model touched by the line.

So if the Spyder/unit within 3" of the spyder is not the unit with the first model touched by the line, then the spyder/unit within 3" of the spyder is not the target of the power and cannot negate the power.

Should the Spyder or unit within 3" of the spyder be the first model touched; then the power is wholly negated(based on gloom prism wording).

So to recap:

Declare the power(Jaws)
Pass the test
Draw the line
If first model touched is not the spyder/unit within 3" carry on as normal.
If first model touched is the spyder/unit within 3" take Gloom Prism test to possibly negate; if not negated: carry on as normal.
If you Carry on as Normal; then each model on the line takes an Initiative test or is removed from play(no returns for thawn, Yarrick, or Reanimation Protocols, EW does nothing to prevent).
If negated; it is wholly negated no models suffer effect.

I agree with your assesment, excluding the target unit idea. I still say that even if it's hitting only one model, it still targets the unit.

If in the event that a FAQ is made to clear this up, then at the least we can put our characters within 3" of the tomb spiders in cases where Jaws spam via drop pods is occuring to pretect from turn one shinanagans.

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The problem with JAWS and the subsequent FAQ regarding targetting is that the target model is not determined until after the Psychic test has already been passed

Why do you say this? Do they get to draw the line if the target is out of range, then?

Because the rules for JAWS in conjunction with the FAQ tell you that the target model is determined after the psychic test has been passed and after the line has been drawn. The first model the line touches is in effect the the target model. You cannot determine which will be the first model that is affected by the power until after the line is drawn.

ZombieJoe wrote:And if you shut the power down for one unit, why would it not shut down the power to all the others. That makes little sense to me. And honestly what good is a psychic defense that only works on "some" powers?

I agree the wording is badily written and also terrible essential when Necrons get so badily mauled by this power.

I don't see how it doesn't work though. I don't see how the order makes a difference. Since even if the target was declared before the power was passed. You can't nullify the psychic test until after it has been passed. So your argument doesn't make much sense to me.

Option 1: They target unit, pass test, then I null it.
Option 2: They pass test, target unit, then I null it.

Eitherway I have nulled the power after it has been passed. And if you target a model, he is still part of the unit and therefore a part of the unit targeted.

I quoted the Gloom prism rule to show you why. The rule sets the order of events leading up to nullifying the psychic power which you are bound to follow;

The Gloom prism is trigger when the Spyder or friend unit within 3" is targetted by a psychic power at which time you roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed.

JAWS takes a Psychic test. Gloom prism is not triggered because neither the Spyder or a friendly unit within 3" has been targetted. The line is drawn and the target model is determined by the first model the line has touched and affected. Gloom prism is triggered because a the Spyder or friendly model has been targeted. However, it is now waiting for a Psychic test to be passed, which has already been taken. The Gloom prism sits in limbo waiting for a Psychic test to be taken and passed to roll a d6 in an attempt to nullify.

Seriously, GW could have just changed the wording to have been when the Spyder or friendly unit to be like the runic staff. Instead that set a strict order of events to follow.

Going to amend the last part because as has been pointed out,

"On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect."

Is an open ended condition. It does not specify that the power is nullifed for the targetted unit only, just that the power is nullified.

Makes sense.

This is why I ask.

I just have to wait and see if the FAQ helps.

ZombieJoe wrote:I just have to wait and see if the FAQ helps.

I anticipate not a FAQ but an errata for the Gloom prism for it to cover JAWS.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Because the rules for JAWS in conjunction with the FAQ tell you that the target model is determined after the psychic test has been passed and after the line has been drawn. The first model the line touches is in effect the the target model. You cannot determine which will be the first model that is affected by the power until after the line is drawn.

This is entirely irrelevant. You can draw the line as much as you want, Gloom Prism makes it not have any effect on a 4+.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Because the rules for JAWS in conjunction with the FAQ tell you that the target model is determined after the psychic test has been passed and after the line has been drawn. The first model the line touches is in effect the the target model. You cannot determine which will be the first model that is affected by the power until after the line is drawn.

This is entirely irrelevant. You can draw the line as much as you want, Gloom Prism makes it not have any effect on a 4+.

only when the Spyder/Unit within 3" of the Spyder are the first model touched.

If the Spyder/Unit within 3" is not the first model touched, then they are not the target unit, nor are targeted by the power.



As for the "but the power went off before the unit was a target" argument; Gloom Prism does not care in which order the targeting/Passing happens in; The unit is targeted and the Psychic test was passed, the order in the sentence does not need to be followed, just that the conditions are met(a test was passed and the unit is targeted).

Kommissar Kel wrote:As for the "but the power went off before the unit was a target" argument; Gloom Prism does not care in which order the targeting/Passing happens in; The unit is targeted and the Psychic test was passed, the order in the sentence does not need to be followed, just that the conditions are met(a test was passed and the unit is targeted).

I need to read it.

Their point was, I think, that the targeting only happens after the effect occurs, which would preclude a psychic test modification/reaction from affecting the power. And no unit is targeted, unless it is a lone model.

/shrug

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Because the rules for JAWS in conjunction with the FAQ tell you that the target model is determined after the psychic test has been passed and after the line has been drawn. The first model the line touches is in effect the the target model. You cannot determine which will be the first model that is affected by the power until after the line is drawn.

This is entirely irrelevant. You can draw the line as much as you want, Gloom Prism makes it not have any effect on a 4+.

Read the rules Darkness.

The Gloom prism is triggered when the Spyder or friendly unit within 3" is targeted by a psychic power and then waits to nullify the power if the Psychic test is passed. The trigger is a specific step by step process, all in one sentence. The psychic test for JAWS is passed before a Spyder or friendly unit within 3" is ever targeted. You cannot backtrack the nullify because if you do, the Spyder or friendly unit within 3" was never targeted by JAWS and the trigger never happened.

How can you trigger a nullify if you retroactively nullify the condition that causes the trigger?

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:As for the "but the power went off before the unit was a target" argument; Gloom Prism does not care in which order the targeting/Passing happens in; The unit is targeted and the Psychic test was passed, the order in the sentence does not need to be followed, just that the conditions are met(a test was passed and the unit is targeted).

I need to read it.

Their point was, I think, that the targeting only happens after the effect occurs, which would preclude a psychic test modification/reaction from affecting the power. And no unit is targeted, unless it is a lone model.

/shrug

"Gloom prism: each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a d6 if the psychic test is passed. On a 4+ the power is nullified and has no effect."

Exact text.

For Jaws the targeting happens at the same time as the effect(since any unit that is with the RP must also be shooting simultaneously at the unit with the first model touched by the line).

To split the FAQ's hair on it claiming the first model hit is the "Target model", thus disqualifying any models in the unit within 3" of the Gloom-spyder; then we open back into the RP being able to send Jaws out at any old unit he wants to(since he is targeting a model); or to either force his entire unit to only fire at that 1 model(since they must fire at the same target); or disallow any shooting from a squad the Jaws-priest is with when he casts jaws(since they must all shoot at the same target and units target units, and cannot target models).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Because the rules for JAWS in conjunction with the FAQ tell you that the target model is determined after the psychic test has been passed and after the line has been drawn. The first model the line touches is in effect the the target model. You cannot determine which will be the first model that is affected by the power until after the line is drawn.

This is entirely irrelevant. You can draw the line as much as you want, Gloom Prism makes it not have any effect on a 4+.

It nullifies Jaws. I get the feeling that if I asked if Runic Weapons could nullify Jaws that someone's head would explode from Space Wolf fanboyism (and I'm saying this as a Space Wolf player).

I can see there's no reasoning with you. Troll away.

It nullifies Jaws, as the Gloom wording simply requires that something has been targetted and a psychic test passed.

I will ask you the same thing then Nos as you consider the timing irrelevant,

How do you nullify JAWS if by nullifying it you prevent it from targeting you in the first place?

Being targeted by a psychic power is necessary for the Glood prism to trigger. JAWS only is considered to have targeted a model after the psychic test has been passed and the first model to be affected by the power has been determined.

The only way you do not go into that paradox is if you consider timing relevant and the Gloom prism does not nullify JAWS.

In the same way you ignore the unsaved wound with FNP.

You nullify the power; the power was successfully "cast", the unit was targetted, and the 4+ was rolled and the power is now nullified, or "ignored"

You do realise the wording for Gloom does NOT require a sequence, as you have erroneously claimed multiple times? It simply requires two things to have happened - targetting and pasing a psychic test.

Agreed, there is no conflict with the Gloom Prism nullifying Jaws, provided the 'target' (the first model hit) is a unit within 3" of the Spyder with the Gloom Prism.

This is exactly how saving throws work. If you pass them, the wound/damage is ignored. Just because that's the case doesn't mean that the saving throw can't be used because a successful save would mean a space-time paradox in which there was never a wound to start with...

This is not an issue, IMHO.


If you want a real issue, then look at the Grey Knight's 'Aegis' special rule which requires a target to be identified BEFORE taking the psychic test, which isn't actually possible the way the rules are written (you have to pass a psychic test in order to USE a power, which means you don't choose a target for any power until after taking the psychic test).

I have a special rule when it comes to JotWW ... feel free to use it, but dont' expect me to play you again after you do .. its not a fun move makes for annoyances

G00fySmiley wrote:I have a special rule when it comes to JotWW ... feel free to use it, but dont' expect me to play you again after you do .. its not a fun move makes for annoyances

It's just not that bad. I'm saying that as a Nid player that has lost 700 points in one Jaws.

That's because Nid players lose 700 points before we ever get to combat anyay. I know that cause I also play Nids. And Nids are init 4, 5, 6! So Jaws is moot. But, Crons are init 2!

And why is only the first model hit by the line, the "target model?" If it his others in the unit then they are also targets. Hell anything hit by the line has to be targeted or how else do you hit it?!

try haveing 3-4 nobz in a green tide list get taken out yay 120 useless ork boy!