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Just a quick one that ive been wondering about.

Is it legal to cast a model based on the original sculpt if the model in question is strictly for personal use or to repair the existing product?
if not, how much of the original model is it legal to replicate, if at all?

I am not able to give a definite answer to the question but a general rule of thumb is that you can do "what ever you want" for personal use. Includes scratch builds etc that copy the original, most IP laws etc. are part of competition law and we consumers dont need to bother with it.

Issues arise when something gets too much attention and therefore generates value. This includes websites, selling casts and random stuff that can be considered or turned into a business.

If you are speaking of GW models, it is illegal to do it at all, even if other companies give the ok for personal use only. Check GWs legal rules. If you have a model that needs fixing, I fail to see how recasting will help it.

Strictly, recasting pieces is illegal, but casting your own identical sculpts is a bit of a grey area because you're reproducing an image not an actual manufactured object.

But if you are only making a few parts for your own purposes to repair some old models, it doesn't really matter. No one will know or care so don't worry about the legal technicalities, it's largely irrelevant unless you start boasting about it and trying to sell them.

timetowaste85 wrote:If you have a model that needs fixing, I fail to see how recasting will help it.

How about the fact that a lot of RT era marines on eBay and second hand generally are sold without their backpacks? These seem quite hard to come by, especially the original metal variants. I only have acouple, yet I have about 50 marines. GW don't make these any more and you simply can't find them let alone dozens. Should I be allowed the leeway to recast the few backpacks I have to complete the figures I have collected?

Short answer is no you can't. (safe answer) Even for personal use.

But who is going to find out is the real question.

There are no IP police making random inspections

I feel like I must point out, that GW in the past has asserted more control on independent stockists (for example) then they had/have the legal right to do.

What I want to say is that breaking GW rules does not necessarily mean that you are breaking the law.

Edit:
I got interested in this and started reading GW:S Lega-section

Quote from GW official home page, legal section

Do not cast any materials that are based upon Games Workshop material. Games Workshop has to maintain a strict policy on this to fight counterfeiters. We would also remind you that reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide.

I consider that to be an admission that they cannot stop people casting for personal use. Please ignore the first sentence and concentrate on the second one as it also reminds us that GW cannot set laws. "not an automatic exclusion"... it implies that in most cases it actually IS an exclusion though, since IP laws are mostly about competition law.

Short answer: It depends.

timetowaste85 wrote:If you are speaking of GW models, it is illegal to do it at all, even if other companies give the ok for personal use only. Check GWs legal rules. If you have a model that needs fixing, I fail to see how recasting will help it.

That assumes we're discussing this in terms of a region where that right isn't automatically given. Gw can 'not give permission' but if the local government says you automatically have permission under certain circumstances, GW can't override that.

Legally you can't reproduce copyrighted material of any kind, not even for personal use. That being said I don't know how many times I've recorded a sports match or movie off TV, or copied a game for backup. Am I doing something illegal? Yes, but I never profeted from it and I am not going to bother the NFL every time I DVR a game. So could you reproduce some broken or missing parts for a few models you need to finish? You could and no one would bother you about it, just don't start selling them on ebay. It's sill illegal though.....

Balance wrote:Short answer: It depends.

timetowaste85 wrote:If you are speaking of GW models, it is illegal to do it at all, even if other companies give the ok for personal use only. Check GWs legal rules. If you have a model that needs fixing, I fail to see how recasting will help it.

That assumes we're discussing this in terms of a region where that right isn't automatically given. Gw can 'not give permission' but if the local government says you automatically have permission under certain circumstances, GW can't override that.

Exactly, rules set by companies are suggestions and requests, not laws. We consumers are in most cases untouchable. Obviously when you make the mistake of turning a profit on someone elses IP, you might get in trouble.

Edit: GW's legal section also mentions conversions to be a "major infringement of IP law" WHILE being commonly acceptable, obviously they cant be both, since a law against something that is commonly acceptable is moot by default. At least in most European legal systems governing individuals.

so, in short, its a matter of local law? there are no ways for a company to overwrite that?

tarnish wrote:so, in short, its a matter of local law? there are no ways for a company to overwrite that?

Law overrules any rule that a company makes that is against that law, in that sense it is a matter of local law.

In any case, if you do something for personal use it at most becomes down to the morality of the action, not its legality. For example, GW cannot say it is forbidden to modify their IP and state that conversions are acceptable.

'personal use' has a very narrow and detailed definition. People on this board like to consider almost anything personal use.

Technically isn't the sole purpose of buying stuff and playing with it 'personal use'? i personally use it it is personal use right? No, it is not.

Recasting a product so you can have more of modex X because you don't want to buy it is not personal use by most countries laws.

Example of fair use:
*My model fell off the shelf and shattered into a dozen pieces. Putting it back together won't work, but I can temporarily clue it to recast. I make one recast.
*I am making a GD model and I want to test paint schemes. I recast the model 10 times to test paint jobs and techniques without harming the original. When I finish my exercises, the recasts are destroyed.

Not examples of fair use:
*I bought a OOP model off ebay and recast it 20 times so I can have a whole unit because I waaaaaaaant it and I should get things I want...

Many legal systems take intent into account and nkelsch makes a very good point.

As long as you don't start trading the bits for stuff or selling them you should be just fine. just keep it to personal use only. also how are they going to ever find out that 1 person out of billions is recasting a few figures UNLESS IT COMES FROM YOUR MOUTH!!! so do what you like just don't make word of it.
also I doubt any court would take it to full effect of OMG THIS MAN DID A RECAST!! AND HE USED IT FOR PERSONAL USE!!! OMG!!! 1BILLION IN LEGAL FEES TO THAT MAN!

GamzaTheChaos wrote:As long as you don't start trading the bits for stuff or selling them you should be just fine. just keep it to personal use only. also how are they going to ever find out that 1 person out of billions is recasting a few figures UNLESS IT COMES FROM YOUR MOUTH!!! so do what you like just don't make word of it.
also I doubt any court would take it to full effect of OMG THIS MAN DID A RECAST!! AND HE USED IT FOR PERSONAL USE!!! OMG!!! 1BILLION IN LEGAL FEES TO THAT MAN!

You sir have never heard of Napster.

JudgeShamgar wrote:Legally you can't reproduce copyrighted material of any kind, not even for personal use. That being said I don't know how many times I've recorded a sports match or movie off TV, or copied a game for backup. Am I doing something illegal? Yes, but I never profeted from it and I am not going to bother the NFL every time I DVR a game. So could you reproduce some broken or missing parts for a few models you need to finish? You could and no one would bother you about it, just don't start selling them on ebay. It's sill illegal though.....

Again, every region is different, but I think the US government has approved 'time shifting' (I.E. recording broadcasted material) and copying software for backup purposes as legal. TiVo might have trouble staying i business if their product was based on doing illegal stuff.

There's also the interesting thing where the Government says it is both legal to tape stuff, but ALSO legal for broadcasters to try to stop you (I.E. adding copy protection to some digital signals). So it's a back and forth... Right now, things favor the content creators as getting around their blocks can be considered illegal.


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tarnish wrote:so, in short, its a matter of local law? there are no ways for a company to overwrite that?

GW could buy a bunch an island and declare themselves a sovereign nation, but even then they'd only have authority over Geedubistan.

Companies have to work within the framework of the law. This si why many companies don't do business in various companies that don't adhere to international copyright treaties and such.

IP law is complex, and I know nothing about the laws in Europe (or even if the OP is in an EU country).

Here's a helpful tip: anytime you ask "can I make a copy of this" the answer is probably no.

There are a few exceptions (backup copies of software being one), but generally people get "personal use" confused with "fair use."

Not that either exception really allows as much copying as people would like.

The link below spells out that it is illegal to make a copy of anything, DVDs, games, TV shows, ect. That is why there is a giant disclaimer at the biginning of every DVD and all American Football games have the "You may not make a copy of this, blah blah, with out written permission, blah blah. Like I said can you? Yup you can, but it is still illegal. Does the NFL or movie studios care? Not unless you start making money from it.


http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86356/mpaa-says-making-even-one-copy-of-a-dvd-is-illegal/

JudgeShamgar wrote:The link below spells out that it is illegal to make a copy of anything, DVDs, games, TV shows, ect. That is why there is a giant disclaimer at the biginning of every DVD and all American Football games have the "You may not make a copy of this, blah blah, with out written permission, blah blah. Like I said can you? Yup you can, but it is still illegal. Does the NFL or movie studios care? Not unless you start making money from it.

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86356/mpaa-says-making-even-one-copy-of-a-dvd-is-illegal/

Clear as mud.

(Actually, I can't visit the link as I'ma t work and it's blocked.)

First, the MPAA can't make laws (except by the time-honored method of buying congressmen).

The NFL disclaimer is (from wikipedia):

"This telecast is copyrighted by the NFL for the private use of our audience [and] any other use of this telecast or [of] any pictures, descriptions or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent is prohibited"

Further research notes that a 1979 case of Universal vs. Sony (For the record, Sony was the good guy here as they wanted to make sure their Betamax technology could be used to record TV) was finally wrapped up (appeals) in 1984 with a decision in Sony's favor: copying TV programs is OK as long as it's for personal use. It's an example fot he much-despised term fair use.

I am not a lawyer and am using Wikipedia as a primary source, so I am clearly an insane fool. However, reading up on fair use...The whole idea seems to be summed up as "Don't be a jerk." It's also got a lot of what appear to be grey areas.

Back to miniatures: The chances of a small basement casting operation getting busted for making a small pile of backpacks is very small. However, if there's concern, maybe look for a 3rd party that makes their own backpacks that could be used instead? Do any of the 3rd party GW parts sources sell backpacks?

Best advice so far in almost any thread - "don't be a jerk" If your not being a jerk your probably on to a winner!

Balance- OK so by the wording on the NFL disclaimer talking about the Monday Night Football game around the water cooler would be in violation of said disclaimer, ie it is public usage of accounts. I guess the point I was trying to make is that "illegal" actions are sometimes turned a blind eye to just because no one could police it, or it would be just plain stupid to try. I think making a few small parts of a model and backing up expensive software, still illegal on both counts, falls into this line of reasoning.

Balance wrote:Back to miniatures: The chances of a small basement casting operation getting busted for making a small pile of backpacks is very small. However, if there's concern, maybe look for a 3rd party that makes their own backpacks that could be used instead? Do any of the 3rd party GW parts sources sell backpacks?

Well they wouldn't look like the original figure, which is the point of 'repairing' a retro figure in the first place. If you didn't care about the look of the backpack, you could use modern ones or any that have been produced since the RT ones. What I described hurts no one, GW don't make the parts and if I don't recast, I'm left without backpacks. It's not like my recasting these parts will mean GW lose out on sales which is the issue with recasting whole figures or stuff currently for sale.

JudgeShamgar wrote:Legally you can't reproduce copyrighted material of any kind, not even for personal use. That being said I don't know how many times I've recorded a sports match or movie off TV, or copied a game for backup. Am I doing something illegal? Yes, but I never profeted from it and I am not going to bother the NFL every time I DVR a game. So could you reproduce some broken or missing parts for a few models you need to finish? You could and no one would bother you about it, just don't start selling them on ebay. It's sill illegal though.....

If this is the case regarding DVR, TIVO, etc., then why do they exist considering that every single item you would record is going to be illegal? I am not trying to derail this topic, honest. I am just very curious as to why something that has gained such widespread usage is, by its very nature, illegal.

As to recasting models or components...it is illegal even for personal use, but I know that I have had to do it and will continue to do it until products are packaged more reasonably. An example of this is the Eldar Warwalker. You get one of each weapon in a box, thereby giving no option to twin link unless you purchase another box. I am not rich so I will not do this. Bitz sites do not always carry the items needed and GW has made the community offending decision to not sell bitz or solo sprues anymore, so I am left with only one option as I see it. So I have recasting items for personal use in the past and will more than likely do it again in the future until companies actual package their merchandise in a more realistic manner.

JudgeShamgar wrote:
Now you are getting into the area of something like Project Gutenberg, where books past their copyright date are avalable as free. I would think reproduction would be OK just like many antique car reproduction companies. Those companies even make a profit on the reproduced items that car companies origanly sold.

I would say that it's my intention to cast up these backpacks eventually but I just need to get the compounds for the mould and the resin mix and other odds and ends. It's not actually a cheap thing to do. Recasting for home use is actually something done due to necessity not as a cost saving exercise.

Ah, this thread again. I'm only familiar with US law, so this may change depending on where you live.

1) There is NO protection from copyright law because something is for "personal use". That's a myth. There is a "fair use" exemption, but having it be for personal use is NOT included. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

2) You cannot recast anything without GW's permission. If you do, they can sue you. (I said "can", not that they necessarily will.)

3) Recording something off TV is totally fine and a completely different legal issue. It's called "time shifting" where you record something so that you can watch it at a later date. http://supreme.justia.com/us/464/417/case.html

JudgeShamgar wrote:Balance- OK so by the wording on the NFL disclaimer talking about the Monday Night Football game around the water cooler would be in violation of said disclaimer, ie it is public usage of accounts. I guess the point I was trying to make is that "illegal" actions are sometimes turned a blind eye to just because no one could police it, or it would be just plain stupid to try. I think making a few small parts of a model and backing up expensive software, still illegal on both counts, falls into this line of reasoning.

I admit it's weird, but that's what they try to do. I think the thing is that the NFL (and other pro sports) has tried to prevent 'live coverage' by a radio station doing play-by-play by watching the TV coverage.

Of course, I'm still not a lawyer.

Then I am safe on all counts. The US of A isn't that bad after all then.

Grakmar's advice above seems pretty solid.

Shepherd23 wrote:If this is the case regarding DVR, TIVO, etc., then why do they exist considering that every single item you would record is going to be illegal?

Because something that records video is not in itself an infringement. It's what you choose to do with it that causes the theoretical issues.

And recording TV isn't universally illegal. I can't speak for other countries, but here in Oz it's legal to record stuff on TV, but you're supposed to only watch it once and then delete it.


It's a completely different issue to making copies of physical sculpts, though. Recording TV, and copying music, movies or books are given specific exemptions from normal Copyright restrictions in some countries. People like to think that this (or the oft-toted US 'Fair Use' clause) gives them the right to copy whatever they want so long as they're not selling it, but it doesn't actually work that way.