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Quick question regarding the new rez orb mechanic.

It states that it affects the Lord and his unit. My question is, when is that determined? Primarily, I'm thinking along this type of scenario:

A Lord is attached to a 10 man squad of Warriors. The Lord and 2 Warriors each suffer a wound in the shooting phase. Leadership test is passed. When RP kicks in, is it:

a) a 4+ for the Lord and Warriors
b) a 5+ for the Lord and Warriors
c) a 4+ for the Lord and a 5+ for the Warriors
d) a 4+ for the Lord and if he resurrects successfully then a 4+ Warriors, if he does not a 5+ for the Warriors

Thanks!

A.

RP is all done at the same time(that is to say the resolution is considered simultaneous, so order that it is actually done in does not matter).

Roll for the overlords/lords/crypteks separately as they are not RP tokens, but everliving tokens.

This means if your lord and overlord die, and you roll 2 dice, 1 succeeds and one doesn't you can pick which one to bring back

Unless its been changed, res orb is checked when the model died.

WanderingFox wrote:Unless its been changed, res orb is checked when the model died.

I don't follow.

do you mean changed from the old book?

If so, then yes it has.

RP is all rolled for in 1 go, EL tokens roll for RP; El just changes how/when/where they can return.

The Lord + 4 warriors that go down are all replaced by tokens, 4 RP tokens for the warriors, 1 EL token for the lord. You then roll for all 5 tokens(the EL either separately or with a different colored die) using the Res Orb benefits. If the Lord does not return, and you take more casualties in the next phase(or any later phases); then those RP rolls will not benefit from the res orb.

If you are rolling the dice separately for the RP tokens and the EL token, the order you roll them in does not matter; even if you roll the EL token first and the Lord does not return.

I meant in specific to when the res orb needs to be in play in order for it to effectively count for being there. This was obviously a big topic of concern in the old codex since it effected models outside of the unit it was in, but it still has some relevance now.

To explain further, perhaps an example from the old codex?

Take for example, a unit of necron warriors. They are shot to below 75% strength, and thus must take a fall back move. Due to this movement they have moved into the range of a res orb. At the start of the next necron turn do the models get up as if the res orb is in range?

The answer to this for the old codex is a resounding no as the FAQ clearly states that the res orb must be in range when the model is removed from play in order for it to gain the benefits.

Now, back to the OP's question, the lord and the 2 warriors die. These three models were all affected by the lord's res orb when the models died, and thus would get their rolls at the end of the phase.

If they have not deviated from the wording, this would also mean that any warriors shot down in another round of shooting would not get the benefit of a res orb since it would not be present when the model died (since the lord would now just be an ever living token).

That would mean if something like the following happened:
2 warriors, 1 lord killed.
3 warriors killed.

You'd make 1 everliving roll @ 4+, 2 RP rolls @ 4+ and then 3 RP rolls @ 5+

Like I said, however, this is based on the assumption that they have not changed the way the orb functions in the new codex. As far as I'm aware, the new wording is extremely vague, so I've been going with the above, which is exactly how you'd play it in the old codex.

No, they have completely changed the function in the new codex.

New wording is(paraphrased to avoid breaking Forum rules, but not changing the mechanics): The bearer of the res orb(and his unit) pass their RP on "a better number".

since RP is now done at the end of every phase, and all done simultaneously, it is very concise. It does not matter who died first in the phase, all that matters is that the bearer(and/or his unit) is making an RP roll.

Except that the lord is no longer part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols when it dies.

Not only that, the model is no longer there. You're arguing that the model that had the piece of wargear is still effecting the battlefield even after it's died. That's like me saying that my sanguinary priest is still providing FNP even though you killed him in an assault the same phase as another assault was taking place.

The model is no longer on the table, it is no longer part of the unit of warriors that are still up (or the ones that are dead for that matter, but I covered why they get it in my previous post). Therefore, the piece of wargear does not exist when the other warriors die, and even if your argument made sense, the lord ceases to be a part of that unit the second it dies since it is removed from the board and is thus, no longer in coherency with any of the models still on the table.

While I agree, after rereading it, that RAI is that the whole unit would roll on a 4+ if it contained an orb in the phase the rolls were being made on, RAW does not support it one bit.

edit:
To clarify my previous example... that was all happening in one shooting phase.

Tactical squad A fires, kills 2 warriors and a lord
Tactical squad B fires, kills 3 more warriors
End of shooting
2 warriors and a lord died when the res orb was on the board (since the shots of a single unit all land simultaneously). They roll at 4+
3 warriors died when the res orb was not on the board (since the lord model is removed as a casualty from the previous volley of shots). These warriors roll at a 5+
RP occurs at the end of the phase, so all of these rolls are made simultaneously (ie. the lord cannot get up first). Ergo, you roll 1 4+ ever living, 2 4+ RP, and 3 5+ RP

"Except that the lord is no longer part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols when it dies.
"

No such rule exists. EL even specifies the situation where the EL model had joined.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Except that the lord is no longer part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols when it dies.
"

No such rule exists. EL even specifies the situation where the EL model had joined.

I don't think that's the point being made. The 'bearer' of the Res Orb is no longer on the table. It is removed from play and a token is placed in its stead. The question is, "Do the models that have been removed as a casualty, including the Lord, gain the benefits of the Orb when the model bearing the Orb has been replaced by a token?" I would assert that per the RAW you do not get the 4+.

-Yad

I would assert that per the RAW; you do get the 4+.

Reason being that if the bearer is not on the table when he is an EL token, then the bearer can never benefit from the res Orb(and he is specified as benefiting).

The only way for a res orb to work for the bearer is for it to work when the bearer is an EL token.

Since the EL token and the RP tokens are still to be returned to their unit, then any RP tokens will benefit as well.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I would assert that per the RAW; you do get the 4+.

Reason being that if the bearer is not on the table when he is an EL token, then the bearer can never benefit from the res Orb(and he is specified as benefiting).

The only way for a res orb to work for the bearer is for it to work when the bearer is an EL token.

Since the EL token and the RP tokens are still to be returned to their unit, then any RP tokens will benefit as well.

I get what you're saying. I do think that the current way the Orb is worded prevents the bearer from gaining its benefits. There would have to be another model alive in the unit that has an Orb. I don't think that the token bears the the Res Orb.

-Yad

The primary beneficiary of the res orb is the bearer.

In fact the wording would have to allow the bearer to benefit it since he is specified.

The bearer rolls rp at a 4+.

It is that simple, and that clear.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The primary beneficiary of the res orb is the bearer.

In fact the wording would have to allow the bearer to benefit it since he is specified.

The bearer rolls rp at a 4+.

It is that simple, and that clear.

I would say that the primary beneficiary of the Res Orb are those models with the RP rule. The wording certainly does not suggest that the 'token' which replaces the model with Res Orb gains the 4+ roll. It's a token, it is not the model that you purchased the Res Orb for. Yes, I agree it is that simple and clear.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
I get what you're saying. I do think that the current way the Orb is worded prevents the bearer from gaining its benefits. There would have to be another model alive in the unit that has an Orb. I don't think that the token bears the the Res Orb.

-Yad

Your position is that the rule which clearly says that the bearer gains the benefit of the rule somehow doesn't gain the benefit of the rule?

Folk wisdom about how the rules work like "Models that are dead don't benefit from their wargear" is not valid when GW goes out and invents wargear that only works when the model dies.

You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

What I was getting at, and how orb worked in the past, is that if the lord is shot down in one volly of fire, and then another volley kills more warriors, the warriors killed in the second volley are not in the presence of a res orb when they died since the lord is no longer on the table.

Also, nosferatu, go read your codex. I'll list it in detail here just to be crystal clear.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols"

Page 29 of the Necron Codex, Reanimation Protocols Section, Last Paragraph, Second sentence.

And just to prove it some more... see attached image.

Like I said, from a RAI point of view I agree with you all 100%, however there is no backing in the RAW.

solkan wrote:

Yad wrote:
I get what you're saying. I do think that the current way the Orb is worded prevents the bearer from gaining its benefits. There would have to be another model alive in the unit that has an Orb. I don't think that the token bears the the Res Orb.

-Yad

Your position is that the rule which clearly says that the bearer gains the benefit of the rule somehow doesn't gain the benefit of the rule?

Folk wisdom about how the rules work like "Models that are dead don't benefit from their wargear" is not valid when GW goes out and invents wargear that only works when the model dies.

You're seem to be either deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying or missing the point entirely.

-Yad

So what is your point? Your claim is that the bearer of the res orb cannot benefit from the 4+, yet the rules say exactly the opposite.

WanderingFox wrote:You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

What I was getting at, and how orb worked in the past, is that if the lord is shot down in one volly of fire, and then another volley kills more warriors, the warriors killed in the second volley are not in the presence of a res orb when they died since the lord is no longer on the table.

Also, nosferatu, go read your codex. I'll list it in detail here just to be crystal clear.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols"

Page 29 of the Necron Codex, Reanimation Protocols Section, Last Paragraph, Second sentence.

And just to prove it some more... see attached image.

Like I said, from a RAI point of view I agree with you all 100%, however there is no backing in the RAW.

I'd also like to point out the rule for the Resurrection Orb:

BRB, page 82, Resurrection Orb (my emphasis) wrote:
The bearer of the Resurrection Orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocol rolls on a 4+.

By RAW, the Lord and the unit he is with benefit from the ResOrb. The ResOrb works even if the Lord is downed in the phase prior to other models within the unit going down (such as in Assaulting). This is the RAW.

WanderingFox wrote:You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

What I was getting at, and how orb worked in the past, is that if the lord is shot down in one volly of fire, and then another volley kills more warriors, the warriors killed in the second volley are not in the presence of a res orb when they died since the lord is no longer on the table.

Also, nosferatu, go read your codex. I'll list it in detail here just to be crystal clear.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols"

Page 29 of the Necron Codex, Reanimation Protocols Section, Last Paragraph, Second sentence.

And just to prove it some more... see attached image.

Like I said, from a RAI point of view I agree with you all 100%, however there is no backing in the RAW.

Fox, read the rest of that sentence; your highlighted portion is being taken out of context.

A Character that is the only member of the unit alive, does not count for RP to the unit.

The Character has EL; so the character can always attempt to revive; and does so on the 4+.

@komissssar I'm aware of the rest of the phrasing, but even if you were to take it as to only referencing that specific example, there is still no rules that support the orb functioning once the lord is off the table, or at the very least no one has provided any.


@avatar:
What you're arguing is the following:

I have a lord w/ 10 warriors. The lord dies and does not return to play. Next phase you kill 4 warriors. By your logic, I can take RP at a 4+ on those 4 warriors because they are "part of the lords unit" even though the lord with the wargear is not present.

This makes absolutely no sense, and has no backing in the rules.

A model ceases to be a part of a unit the second it is 'removed as a casualty' which happens the moment you place that ever living counter.

Allow me to illustrate this with a known example from another codex.

The blood chalice provides FNP and furious charge to any unit within 6" of the chalice. When does this power take effect when a model is charging?

The FAQ for Blood Angels answers this and sets precedent.

"Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks."

In other words, they must be within 6" of the chalice when the power would come into play.

Back to our other example, the orb is 'put to use' when the necron dies since that's when you're placing RP tokens. The orb is no longer in the unit once the lord is off the table.

Just to clarify your side of this... Does the unit an independent character starts in count as 'his unit' even after the independent character dies/moves out of coherency?

What you're arguing here is that even after the lord is dead and gone (say 3 turns later), that the unit it was originally a part of can STILL take RP rolls at a 4+. That does not make any sense.

This is along the same string of topics.

If a lord in a group were to be RFP via lets say JOWW, and some warriors in his group died also they would then have to use the 5+ RP correct?

They don't get RP at all. JOWW acts like a sweeping advance for those models. They were never 'removed as casualties' they were simply removed from the table. If they were killed via say... shooting from another squad, yes the ones that were killed via normal shooting (ie removed as a casualty) would then test RP at a 5+

The lord is not present when it dies = no RP at 4+ Although apparently people play that differently :3

WanderingFox wrote:They don't get RP at all. JOWW acts like a sweeping advance for those models. They were never 'removed as casualties' they were simply removed from the table. If they were killed via say... shooting from another squad, yes the ones that were killed via normal shooting (ie removed as a casualty) would then test RP at a 5+

The lord is not present when it dies = no RP at 4+ Although apparently people play that differently :3

no this one is correct; the Lord, or his EL token are not Present at rolling for RP; therefore no 4+ RP.

And Fox you are still ignoring that the Lord, himself is the locus of the Res orb, it is very specific in that the lord gets to make his RP roll on the 4+, the parenthetical to extend to his unit is ancillary.

If he did not benefit from his Orb, then his Orb would not say "the bearer(and his unit)"; it would say "the Bearer's unit"

when did I ever say the lord doesn't get to use his orb? I'm pretty sure I actually said the exact opposite 3 or 4 posts ago...

edit:

WanderingFox wrote:You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

end edit.

The el token has NO IMPACT on the game. It is not a model. It is not a lord. It is a marker. This is clearly stated in the necron codex.

By your own admission, if the lord is not present, then the RP rolls of any models that die after the lord are made at a 5+.

The wording of both RP and EL make it explicitly clear that the model is still removed as a casualty.

You can't agree to only half of that as the lord is removed as a casualty in both cases before the other warriors die.

This is even proven in the BRB in the shooting section.

You must completely finish one units shooting phase before moving onto the next. That means that the following happens in order:

Unit A fires
Deals wounds
Saves failed
Lord and 2 warriors are REMOVED AS CASUALTIES
2 RP tokens and 1 EL token are placed near the unit of warriors to denote the rolls that must be taken at the end of the phase.

Unit B fires
Deals wounds
Saves failed
3 more warriors are removed as casualties
3 more RP tokens are added. However, there is no lord in the unit that the 3 warriors came from. It was removed as a casualty already (exactly as in the other example that spanned a turn).

Your argument is that the EL token some how is still conferring the res orb benefit to the unit. However, an EL token is not a Necron Lord with a Res Orb. That model is not on the table.

And as much as I'd love to play it with all 5 warriors and the lord getting a 4+ RP, it is just not supported by the rules as written. 2 warriors and the lord roll at 4+, the other 3 warriors roll at 5+

I think what you don't get is that the ResOrb now is completely different from the one in the previous codex (and the BA Grail). If it worked in a 6" bobble like the previous one, then your would have a point.

The new ResOrb's effect comes into play at the time of the RP roll. No sooner, no later. At that time everyone rolls on a 4+. If the lord doesn't make it, then in the next phase all RP rolls happen on 5+, because there is no orb anymore to get activated. Plain and simple.

I get that, however, that interpretation self-contradicts with reanimation protocols.

If the lord not being on the table does not confer the 4+ bonus (as you just admitted). How is it giving the bonus when it's removed from the table prior to the RP rolls being made?

A lord with a resorb just means that there is an ability that triggers when it's time for the RP rolls. It isn't an everpresent effect as the previous one, that at the time of the damage, that effect decided whether to roll or not for WBB. Now it is an one time effect that gets triggered only at the time of the RP roll. If you have casualties and the bearer is among them, since he is entitled a 4+ RP roll, then so will his unit. In a later RP roll when the lord with the orb isn't there anymore, at the time of the RP there won't be any effect to get triggered. So 5+ RP rolls.

I hope I didn't make things too complicated, sometimes my english seem to fail me...

Again, while I understand that from a RAI point of view, RAW does not agree with it.

The lord ceases to be there the second it dies. This is very clearly stated in reanimation protocols that the model is still removed as a casualty.

What has me still debating this is that no one has been able to satisfactorily explain, with rules evidence, how this being removed as a casualty is any different than the removed as a casualty that is described in the other scenario.

In short, how is it dieing in a shooting phase first, and it not being there in a subsequent phase any different, from a rules point of view? Both involve the model being removed as a casualty prior to the RP rolls being made, and nothing in EL or RP states that the token continues to act as the model. In both cases the rest of the warriors cease to be part of the lord's "unit" the second the lord is removed as a casualty.

WanderingFox wrote:@komissssar I'm aware of the rest of the phrasing, but even if you were to take it as to only referencing that specific example, there is still no rules that support the orb functioning once the lord is off the table, or at the very least no one has provided any.


@avatar:
What you're arguing is the following:

I have a lord w/ 10 warriors. The lord dies and does not return to play. Next phase you kill 4 warriors. By your logic, I can take RP at a 4+ on those 4 warriors because they are "part of the lords unit" even though the lord with the wargear is not present.
This makes absolutely no sense, and has no backing in the rules.

No. Reread my post. I said at the start of the phase. If the ResOrb isn't available at the start of the phase, obviously, its not available at the end of the phase.

A model ceases to be a part of a unit the second it is 'removed as a casualty' which happens the moment you place that ever living counter.

Regardless of your logic the ResOrb rule explicitly states the Lord and the unit he is with benefits from the affects of the Orb. By your "logic" the Lord can never benefit from the affect of the ResOrb, yet the rule of the ResOrb EXPLICITLY states otherwise.

Allow me to illustrate this with a known example from another codex.

Actually, no. Rules from another codex, or FAQs for other codices, do not affect other codices unless explicitly stated as such.