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Kommissar Kel wrote:NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

See I can type in all caps too.

You are still making up rules.]

Res orb does not care when the lord or any of the other models died.

All it cares about is that the lord has a Res Orb(is the bearer), and that you are making RP ro9lls for that lord and/or his unit.

You keep making up and adding rules that you feel are somehow inferred based on rules that do not exist.

The Ever-living counter is the lord; if it is not, then does that mean I can bring a basic 35-point lord, let him take the first casualty; then replace him with Imotekh the Stormlord or a fully kitted Destroyer lord? how about a fully kited Harbinger of some sort?

If Everliving tokens are not their model, then none of the placement rules for everliving function either.

RP and EL tokens, and the models they return are the same models that had died, therefore the Tokens are also representative of the same models that died and are a place-holder-state between being in play and removed from play(as a casualty)

Also it does not say "the lord"; it says "the Bearer", and "the Bearer" is a model that benefits from the better RP roll, which can only happen if "the Bearer" is a token at the time.

My point is so are you.

The orb does not exist when the rolls are made. The token is NOT a model. It is not the lord that had the orb. It is a die or a bead, or a piece of plastic. It simply represents the need to make a roll.
It also mentions nothing about not caring about if they are alive or dead. In fact it mentions nothing of the sort, therefor you default to the preexisting rules that govern it. In this case the fact that models that are removed from play are gone.
You are also making up the fact that the unit of warriors is still "the lord's unit" even after the lord is off the board.

The lord was removed as a casualty, it is not on the board, and therefore neither is the res orb.

To answer your other question, the wording of RP states to return that specific model to play (it does not say 'any model' it says things like 'the model' and 'it' and uses words like return and 'one of the slain models'). It is quite obvious that it means the exact model that you took off initially.

I'm tired of repeating myself. You can play it however you want of course, but you have no rule backing whatsoever.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The rules say what they say; nothing more, Res orb triggers when RP rolls are made, not any time before.

Actually, that's not what the rules say. The rule says the bearer and the unit gain benefit from a 4+ RP roll. It DOESN'T state that when the model attempts an RP roll, the ResOrb comes into affect and grants a 4+ save. This factors into the notion when it "triggers", as in it doesn't its affect is granted while the bearer while the bear is alive.

Reread RP and EL. The models are removed from play as casualties and replaced with a counter. Removed from play. Off the table. Doesn't exist. The counter is used to determine if a model reanimates. If it does, it comes back into play.

You're suggesting wargear can function even if the model is removed from player as a casualty. This is patently wrong. If the model is removed from play it, and the wargear associated with the model, no longer exist in game terms.

Using your logic, once a Lord has joined a unit, the unit will forever benefit from the ResOrb long after the bearer is removed.

Keeping track of when the Orb is in affect is no more difficult now then with the old WBB rule. You just set aside those counters that are not affected by the Orb thus only get at 5+ instead of a 4+.

If you so strongly believe you are correct, provide the logic and backing rules that support your claim.

TGA, according to your logic, the bearer would never get the benefit of the rez orb (despite specifically being mentioned that it does).

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Actually, that's not what the rules say. The rule says the bearer and the unit gain benefit from a 4+ RP roll.

The exact quote is "The bearer of the ressurection orb (and his unit) PASS reanimation protocols on a 4+".


Not: gains the benefit, can pass, may pass, will pass, is elligible to pass etc. The present tense of the wording means that the orb gets activated on the RP roll.

Happyjew wrote:TGA, according to your logic, the bearer would never get the benefit of the rez orb (despite specifically being mentioned that it does).

Exactly the point. Hence why you MUST infer some additional ruling, otherwise the piece of wargear is self-contradictory.

Once this assumption is made, you then look to how you can logically play the rule with the least amount of deviation from the established rule. In this case, as close as you can get is to say that the orb is checked on death of the model instead of when the roll is taken. Any other addition/change to the rule is more complex than this. Occam's razor...

copper.talos wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Actually, that's not what the rules say. The rule says the bearer and the unit gain benefit from a 4+ RP roll.

The exact quote is "The bearer of the ressurection orb (and his unit) PASS reanimation protocols on a 4+".


Not: gains the benefit, can pass, may pass, will pass, is elligible to pass etc. The present tense of the wording means that the orb gets activated on the RP roll.

No. It means if the model is removed while the ResOrb is in range, the model passes the RP roll on the 4+. Note, the quoted rule doesn't state anything about being activated or the like, just the bearer and his unit pass RP rolls on a 4+. Nothing is "activated", it just happens.

What rule permits wargear to be used when it's not on the table?

So I stopped reading on the second page bout half way through lol because the argument is ridiculous IMO. Here's what I think not that anyone cares:

I hate playing against necrons n I would love to.see them rarely get back up on a 4+ but I say that if the Lord is attached to a unit.of warriors then that unit gets the 4+ save regardless of when he dies in that turn and here is why. Rules aside I think this is more a fluff situation. Res orb makes rp easier right? Well when the Lord dies among his unit he's replaced with a token right? The token is to make things easier.to remember. The Lord is actually lying there in pieces merely waiting to get put back together. It's not, where just because he dies he gets teleported miles n miles away where the orb can't work its actually lying there amongst the heap of dead Lord. Like I said I.HATE necrons but I feel like there is no reason they shouldn't get the bonus, unless they fall out of coherency and at that point it would obviously not work.

Just saying have some fun. Get mad at the.necrons cuz they.still.get back up pretty easily. Don't take away from the fluff because you want easier time.winning just suck it up and try a lil harder to murtilate them lol maybe hate them a little more? But the 4+ should be in effect unless the.Lord is straight up dead and failed his.get.back up rule and then he is actually removed from the battle. Not just placed aside for easy's sake.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:What rule permits wargear to be used when it's not on the table?

Well, I'm thinking you may have glossed over the obvious, but the rules in the new necron codex for the res orb do.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet nothing requires the lord to be in play.

Nonsense. So you believe that Wargear can still be used or have an effect on models/units in play if the model the Wargear was bought for is removed from play? What requires the Lord to be in play is the fact that Wargear must be in play to be 'used'.

-Yad

Except nothing requires the wargear to be activated or used; it just simply "is"

The wargear in itself dictates that it can be used while not on the board.

Like I said the model isn't actually gone its just fixing itself and the tokens are used to try and keep things 'neat' but the orb is in fact chillin right there where the guy died! Also remember that I'm just talking out my butt here but the argument that it should work no matter what is pretty solid seeing as how enough people are saying it is straight up in the codex

Wolfnid420 wrote:Like I said the model isn't actually gone its just fixing itself and the tokens are used to try and keep things 'neat' but the orb is in fact chillin right there where the guy died! Also remember that I'm just talking out my butt here but the argument that it should work no matter what is pretty solid seeing as how enough people are saying it is straight up in the codex

There you are wrong. The model is removed from play. A counter is used to indicate how many models have been removed and eligible to roll for RP. There is nothing significant tying one counter to a model. A D6 can be used to keep track of the casualties. As could a slip of paper or similar method of keeping track of the number of casualties.

The dead bearer of the ResOrb is physically removed from play thus the bearer is no longer part of the unit, being dead and all. The ResOrb isn't even on the table to identify which unit is affected. The Necron Codex does NOT state the ResOrb works when the bearer isn't on the table.

Then contrary to Rez Orb rules, the bearer would NEVER get the benefit of the Rez Orb.

Happyjew wrote:Then contrary to Rez Orb rules, the bearer would NEVER get the benefit of the Rez Orb.

No so. The check for the benefit from the ResOrb is made when the model is removed from play. If there is a ResOrb in the unit prior to removing the model, the model benefits from a 4+ RP roll. If there is no ResOrb in the unit prior to removing the model, the model has the standard 5+ RP roll.

The bear of the ResOrb will always be in a unit with a ResOrb prior to being removed since a unit can have a single model, the bearer in this instance.

To say otherwise requires deviation from normal game play beyond that stated in the the Codex. You're suggesting the ResOrb wargear effect extends beyond removing a model from the table. This is not supported by the rules. Further, how long after the bearer is removed from game play does the ResOrb effect last? The rest of the phase? Turn? Game?

The key thing to remember, Necron models are removed from game play, all game play. Counters/markers are used to keep track of how many RP rolls are made. Successful passing of the RP roll mean returning a "slain model" back with its unit.

There is absolutely nothing that says you check when the model is removed and substituted with a counter. Nothing.

Making up rules, then using your made up rules to prove your point ?

TGA, Normal operations are as followed:
1. Suffer Wound
2. Take Save (if applicable)
3. If save fails, subtract 1 from Wound characteristic.
4. If Wound Characteristic = 0, remove model from play.

Necrons change step 4, and add additional steps:
4. If Wound characteristic = 0, replace model with token.
5. At the end of the phase, make RP rolls.
6. IF RP = pass, replace token with model, if RP = fail, remove token.

As it is, it's not until step 6, that the Lord with a rez orb would be removed. AFTER the RP rolls are made. If the Lord fails his RP roll, then (and only then) are the benefits of the rez orb lost.

Happyjew wrote:TGA, Normal operations are as followed:
1. Suffer Wound
2. Take Save (if applicable)
3. If save fails, subtract 1 from Wound characteristic.
4. If Wound Characteristic = 0, remove model from play.

Necrons change step 4, and add additional steps:
4. If Wound characteristic = 0, replace model with token.
5. At the end of the phase, make RP rolls.
6. IF RP = pass, replace token with model, if RP = fail, remove token.

As it is, it's not until step 6, that the Lord with a rez orb would be removed. AFTER the RP rolls are made. If the Lord fails his RP roll, then (and only then) are the benefits of the rez orb lost.

Not true. Reread RP: "If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase." (Necron Codex, page 29, my emphasis) Thus, the slain model is removed from game play. At the end of the phase, there is a chance the model is returned to game play. Per the RP rule, the slain model doesn't exist until it is repaired and returned to game play.


Further, the model is not replaced with a counter/marker/token. Counters are placed next to the unit to indicate how many casualties are take. Also, counters are not replaced with a model.

The actual augmented sequence is:
4. If Wound characteristic = 0, remove model. Place one counter next to the unit to keep track of the number of models removed this phase.
5. At the end of the phase, make an RP roll for each counter next to the unit.
6. For each RP roll passed, return a model to the unit
7. Remove all counters

THAT is the sequence of events for RP. Counter have no relationship to the model beyond tracking when a model is removed from play in the phase. The slain bearer of the ResOrb is removed from the game. Period. There is no residual or latent effect of the Orb, it's no longer on the table. As I pointed out before, the check if the model is affected by the ResOrb is done when the model is removed from game play not when the RP roll is made.

The whole point of the rez orb is it functions when the model is off the board, you are going to get flak at a tournament if you try to pull what you're saying on someone.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:As I pointed out before, the check if the model is affected by the ResOrb is done when the model is removed from game play not when the RP roll is made.

No. The "check if the model is affected", can only be done when you do your Reanimation Protocol rolls. The only thing the Resurrection Orb cares about are Reanimation Protocol rolls. When you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer (and his unit), then they pass on a 4+. There is nothing more to it.

TGA - you are making up a "check" that does not exist in the rules.

bagtagger wrote:The whole point of the rez orb is it functions when the model is off the board, you are going to get flak at a tournament if you try to pull what you're saying on someone.

No it's not. The ResOrb is a piece of wargear, nothing more. Show me where in the rules wargear not on the table can affect game play.

ToBeWilly wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:As I pointed out before, the check if the model is affected by the ResOrb is done when the model is removed from game play not when the RP roll is made.

No. The "check if the model is affected", can only be done when you do your Reanimation Protocol rolls. The only thing the Resurrection Orb cares about are Reanimation Protocol rolls. When you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer (and his unit), then they pass on a 4+. There is nothing more to it.

Right. If the the bearer is no the table the ResOrb works. If bearer is not on the table it doesn't work. Pure and simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - you are making up a "check" that does not exist in the rules.

Nope. It's by RAW. It's the only way the gear works.

So, by all y'all's interpretation, a unit with a ResOrb will ALWAYS benefit from the Orb well after the bearer is removed from play. So, if the bearer is removed from play in the first turn the unit benefits from the Orb for the rest of the entire game. Right, try playing that at tournament and see how much flak you get.

"Nope. It's by RAW. "

Then you can find the rule stating to check for the presence of the item then? Ah wait, no such rule exists. So, not RAW then....

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Nope. It's by RAW. "

Then you can find the rule stating to check for the presence of the item then? Ah wait, no such rule exists. So, not RAW then....

TGA should have been a bit more clear in his last sentance. By check I think he meant that other models check to see if a Res Orb is present in their unit at the end of the phase. If the Res Orb has been removed from play before the end of the phase then no 4+. To my recollection, at no time has wargear ever been allowed to function once it has been removed from play. From a RAW perspective the FAQ needs to clear that contradiction. From a RAI, I'm completely fine with allowing the Lord to gain the 4+ even when he's removed from play.

-Yad

Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

You keep claiming that someone needs to find a rule that wargear on infantry continues to work when the model is no longer on the table.

I am still waiting for the rule that says it doesn't.

Also; Transport rules do state that wargear/special rules continue to function while models are off the table: When the unit is embarked, the wargear/special rule's effects are measured from the hull; The model is not in play, and the gear/rule continues to function.

EL has a token that is for all intents and purposes the killed model, it is where the radius for the model's return must be measured from, and is the same model that was killed there, revived, when the RP roll is passed.

Furthermore no one has addressed the Phylactery; which has the same wording of functioning via a RP roll, and must come into effect while the model is off the table(since, again it returns the model with D3 wounds instead of 1).

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

Right. But the RP rule also states this happens when the the model is removed from play, thus not on the table.

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

That's not what the rule states. The rule states: "The bearer (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+." (Necron codex, page 82). Nothing about when the orb effect affects the unit, thus, the effect only happens when the Orb is on the table when models are removed from play.

You keep claiming that someone needs to find a rule that wargear on infantry continues to work when the model is no longer on the table.

I am still waiting for the rule that says it doesn't.

You're making the claim thus the burden of proof is yours.

Also; Transport rules do state that wargear/special rules continue to function while models are off the table: When the unit is embarked, the wargear/special rule's effects are measured from the hull; The model is not in play, and the gear/rule continues to function.

Correct. Regardless of the physical location of the model, the game rules abstract the notion the model(s) are still on the table as being in the transport. I.e., the models can suffer wounds, use powers, wargear etc.

EL has a token that is for all intents and purposes the killed model, it is where the radius for the model's return must be measured from, and is the same model that was killed there, revived, when the RP roll is passed.

Complete false. The EL counter serves two rolls, to keep track of which RP rolls are from EL models and to serve to mark where the EL model was located when removed from play. That's it. It has no other relation to the model. It doesn't represent the model, it doesn't function as the model, it's just a simple counter/marker.

Furthermore no one has addressed the Phylactery; which has the same wording of functioning via a RP roll, and must come into effect while the model is off the table(since, again it returns the model with D3 wounds instead of 1).

It hasn't been addressed because no one mentioned it. Again, the model has the wargear when it's removed from game play. This grants the possibility of self-repairing with more than one wound. Nothing states this ability is activated AFTER the model is removed from play.

Remember, the very first sentence of the RP rule states "If a model with Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty...."(Necron Codex, page 29). The model is removed as a casualty, thus is no longer part of the game.

Your still making stuff up. Then using it prove your points.

It's not RAW is you have to invent a check that happens when the model is removed. RP doesn't happen then, it happens at the end of the phase.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

Indeed, thought about this myself, though it didn't provide a clear answer.

Before he has returned (as in, before he has been placed back on the table), is he considered to be part of that unit? Is the EL rule an indication of his retained attachment, or rather a re-attachment?

Not trying to make a point here, it's a question I'm actually putting forward, as for me this is the clincher situation - whether the unit benefits from the Res Orb, while the bearer is "not in play" during death, particularly in that moment in time RP rolls are made.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

Right. But the RP rule also states this happens when the the model is removed from play, thus not on the table.

Again, So?

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

That's not what the rule states. The rule states: "The bearer (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+." (Necron codex, page 82). Nothing about when the orb effect affects the unit, thus, the effect only happens when the Orb is on the table when models are removed from play.

Well, yes, it does. It affects the bearer and his unit when making RP rolls(since it's only effect is for those rolls to be passed on a 4+)

You keep claiming that someone needs to find a rule that wargear on infantry continues to work when the model is no longer on the table.

I am still waiting for the rule that says it doesn't.

You're making the claim thus the burden of proof is yours.

No you are making the claim that there is a rule; there is no such rule, the burden is on you and your claim that there is a rule stating anything of the effect.

I need to leave, I will finish when I get home.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

That's not what the rule states. The rule states: "The bearer (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+." (Necron codex, page 82). Nothing about when the orb effect affects the unit, thus, the effect only happens when the Orb is on the table when models are removed from play.

Well, yes, it does. It affects the bearer and his unit when making RP rolls(since it's only effect is for those rolls to be passed on a 4+)