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I recently got back into 40k this past year and began updating my SM army. In my current list I am making the focus of the list a Vanguard vet squad with Shrike and a chaplain attached. That being said I am having a tough time deciding between keeping it as a full 10 with 5 pw, 1 pf, 2 ss, and 4 plas pistols or trimming it down to a 5 man squad. Also any recommendations on units that would compliment and fill out the rest of the list(s)? (I'm shooting for both a 1500 and a 2000 list). Any suggestions?

Honestly Vanguard vets are extremely overpriced in the vanilla dex. Most people will tell you to avoid them.

However, it looks like you are set on them, so I would say go for it. I would avoid the plasma pistols, they just don't do much for you, and could kill your super expensive vets.

To support your guys I would get as many homing beacons on the table as possible. Drop in some drop pods with them, use some infiltrating scouts, or some scout bikers. VV's special rule is pretty awesome, so I would say use it to the best our your ability. You are going to need some ranged stuff too, so get some rifleman dreads, predators, maybe even a TFC or two if you like them.

So would having a chaplain and/or shrike attached to a VV unit be worth it, because if i read the rule correctly they lose the special rule by having a hq attached.

You're right, they lose the special rule by having non-Vanguard ICs attached. Which bites.

If you're going with a Ravenguard theme, you're better off attaching Shrike & your Chappy to a regular assault squad and infiltrating with them. Get a couple of locator beacons in the army (on drop pods, scout bikes) and then drop in the Vanguard as a second wave

I agree with Praetor Dave that overall Vanguard are overpriced, and plasma pistols an unreasonable risk on models that expensive. Keep them relatively cheap (2-3 HtH weapon upgrades), use Locator Beacons to make sure they can drop safely and charge immediately, and you'll stand the best chance of using them effectively.

Alright. I'm gong to mock up a list with some of the things you guys suggested. will edit this post to list when done. I would appreciate critique.

I recommend checking out this article as well:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Ravenguard_Shrike

Flavius is a good local player near me who's run a Ravenguard/Shrike list a good deal. He doesn't usually use Vanguard, but otherwise his experience and info will probably be very helpful.

If I were to run vanguard vets, I would run as a small, effective unit specifically for deep striking on and wiping out glass cannon squads and backline vehicles., so i'd back away from all the power weapons and plasma pistols.

Ok so here is a stub of the mock list:
HQ
Shrike 195
Jump Chaplain w/plas 130

Troop
Scout (5man) 105
Teleport Homer
5 Snipers
Missile Launcher

Tac Squad 225
5 marines
ML & Flamer (free)
Teleport homer
Razorback

Fast Attack

VV 290
2 SS
3 PW (4 inc sgt)
1 PF
5 Jump Pack

Assault Squad 210
5 marines
Sgt w/SS & PW

Heavy
Thunderfury Cannon 100


Which brings me to 1240ish if my math is correct. What would be a good tank choice to finish rounding out the list to 1500? (I'm thinking the sternguard unit and some of the other choices mentioned in the link provided by Mannahnin for the 2k lsit)

That list isn't going to work. A teleport homer doesn't help assault marines; it helps guys who teleport (terminators).

The plasma on the chaplain isn't necessary; at 1500 you're already tight on points trying to squeeze in two HQs and the pricey Vanguard; you need more bodies, fewer toys. Give me a few minutes and I'll get you a suggested revision using many of the same models.

Well I feel foolish now. Guess I misunderstood what TH did. Although lacking a tank at the moment I usually do run with termies. EDIT: I also just ran across a thread pretty much saying that plas pistols are useless except in very specific situations and a waste of points altogether in assault type units; just further drilling in Mannahnin's earlier statement.

Shrike: 195
leads...
10 assault marines, fist & two flamers: 235
5 vanguard w/jump packs, Fist: 200

10 Tac Marines, Fist, combi-melta, meltagun, multimelta: 210
Drop Pod: 35
10 Scouts w/pistols & combat blades, sgt with power fist: 175

Dreadnought w/Multimelta, Heavy Flamer: 115
Drop pod w/Locator Beacon: 45
Dreadnought w/Multimelta, Heavy Flamer: 115
Drop pod w/Locator Beacon: 45
Dreadnought w/Multimelta: 105
Drop pod: 35
-----------------------------------------

Alternately, if you're not such a fan of dreads and would rather have some razorbacks:

Shrike: 195
leads...
10 assault marines, fist & two flamers: 235
5 vanguard w/jump packs, Fist: 200

5 Sternguard w/4 combi-meltas: 145
Drop Pod w/locator beacon: 45
Dreadnought w/Multimelta: 105
Drop pod w/locator beacon: 45

10 Tac Marines, combi-melta, meltagun, missile launcher: 185
Drop Pod: 35
5 Tac Marines w/combi-flamer: 100
In Razorback w/Las/plas: 75
5 Tac Marines w/combi-flamer: 100
In Razorback w/TL heavy bolters: 40

A question about the scouts. why combat blades over snipers?

Cozzy215 wrote:Well I feel foolish now. Guess I misunderstood what TH did. Although lacking a tank at the moment I usually do run with termies.

No need to feel foolish. Many choices are not obvious in 40k. Terminators could possibly make a good complement to this kind of list too; both they and the vanguard can benefit from the beacons. It's just tough fitting in multiple pricey elite-type units in a 1500pt list. Maybe a bare-bones Troops list, like:

Shrike: 195
10 Assault Terminators w/TH & SS: 400
Dread w/MM: 105
Pod w/Beacon: 45
Dread w/MM: 105
Pod w/Beacon: 45

7 vanguard w/jump packs, two Fists: 235
Speeder w/heavy flamer, multimelta: 60
2x Speeder w/heavy flamer, multimelta: 120
5 SM: 90
Pod: 35
5 Scouts w/Snipers, Missile, Camo: 100


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cozzy215 wrote:A question about the scouts. why combat blades over snipers?

In a Shrike list, Fleet allows Scouts to potentially charge on turn 1 if you're going first. Infiltrate 18" away, make a 6" Scout move to 12.1" away, then on turn 1 move 6", Run, and assault. If you've got an LOS-blocking piece of terrain you can potentially Infiltrate even closer. Although you're not allowed to come within 12" of the enemy on your Scout move, being hidden somewhere between 12"-18" away may give you more choice of assault targets, moving laterally with your Scout move.

Your first list is illegal. You need 10 men in a tactical squad to get the flamer and missile launcher (or any other weapon for that matter).

Teleport beacons are only for terminators, but locator beacons work for anyone using deep strike. Now Drop pods can take locator beacons, so if you want to run some of those, and load them all with locator beacons, then that would be a good idea. Additionally, scouts can't take locator beacons, but scout bikers can. Though be advised that is another one of your FA slots, so be careful.

PraetorDave wrote:Your first list is illegal. You need 10 men in a tactical squad to get the flamer and missile launcher (or any other weapon for that matter).

As far as that squad goes that 5 man was to denote 5 extra not a single 5 man squad, sorry if that was confusing. As that list goes overall Mannahnin set me straight already on why other parts will not work so I scrapped that entirely. Thank you for the tips though.

I would advise a Relic Blade and Storm Shield on the Sgt. Not only does this look beastly, but is powerful and well protected, and the Sgt is the only one who can get a Relic Blade in that list and they are awesome.


Seriously, in the MEQ FAQ it even says that Relic Blade+ SS looks awesome, and I guarentee it will look better with a JP.

So I modified one of the lists Mannahnin posted earlier and tailored it with my current available models and tactics in mind.

HQ
Shrike 195
attached to:
10 man assault squad w/2 flamers 1 fist 235

Jump Chaplain 115
attached to:
5m VVet squad w/2 SS, 3 PW, 1 PF and Jump packs 275

Troop
5man Scout w/ 3 snipers 1 ML and Sgt Tellion 140

10 man Tac Squad with 1 ML 1 Melta 1 PF 125
Razorback w/ TL/LC 75

Elite
5 man Sternguard w/ 4 combi-meltas 145
Drop Pod w/ Locator 45

Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta 105
Drop Pod w/ Locator 45

1500 even. As far as the VV squad goes I know it is a bit heavy on "toys" still but the idea is that I'd be hunting HQ or "Glass Cannon" units with it. Also is Tellion a reasonable choice?

I think this army will have problems in actual execution because it's all over the place.

First of all, if you get second turn, your whole alpha-strike plan is out the window. Your opponent can move or screen to counter Shrike's infiltration, and he gets two whole turns to shoot everything to death before there's even a chance that your vanguard or second pod arrives.

1. Even if you get first turn, though, assault marines are horribly overpriced for what they can do. A mech army can basically ignore the charge from Shrike's unit, or screen with low-cost transports which Shrike's unit may be able to destroy a few of. Then in his turn, he charges the assault marines and wipes them out. A BA, SW or GK player can just deploy his troops and take the charge from Shrike's unit, turn one, win the combat (or lose by a few and hold), and throw in more troops to grind the unit away. Run the numbers on what'll happen to one unit of assault marines against 5 purifiers, 6 grey hunters, or a unit of FNP blood angels and you'll see what I mean. You need at least a 2-1 advantage in numbers--or even better 3-1 if you're going to try to win assaults with assault marines.

2. The problem with two drop pods is that either your sternguard or your dread are going to be out until at least turn 2, and possibly much later. You have very few things that can reliably pop tanks (missiles aren't that reliable--really melta is the only reliable thing). If you're hoping to overwhelm your opponent in his deployment zone, you really need all your melta on the table turn 1.

3. Attaching the chaplain deprives the vanguard vets of their charge ability, which means that since they'll arrive at the earliest in turn 2, they won't be able to charge until turn 3 *at the earliest*. And a tiny unit will have to eat a turn of fire from your opponent's whole army, since it's not likely there will be much of your alphastrike force left in turn 3 and 4. So they'll either get there in time to mop up a game you've already won, or in time to die gloriously as the last unit in your army that's already dead. IMO the rerolls on attacks are not worth effectively taking a unit out of your game plan.

So here are some suggestions:

1. Unless you're running 30 of them (and maybe not then) vanilla assault marines belong on the shelf until the next codex. They need to be cheaper and have access to melta before they'll be viable in a game full of 20-point GK marines with power weapons. BP & CCW scouts are cheap enough to serve as a sacrificial unit. Infiltrating TH/SS terminators, although they can't assault turn one, can present a credible threat.

2. If your tac squad had a drop pod instead of a razorback, you could leave their pod empty in reserve, deploy the tac squad on the table, and drop both your melta units in turn 1. The empty "dud" pod doesn't need a locator beacon or any other upgrades because it's only there to allow you to drop 2 pods in turn 1.

3. Drop the chaplain, or attach him to a different unit. Let the vanguard vets do what they do.

Also the dread is a bit of a mismatch in a list that doesn't otherwise have any vehicles except drop pods. He'll die very quickly to short-range melta in turn 2. Did you consider the possibility of a second tiny sternguard unit, or a command squad (both can take pods) as a source of more melta?

As depressing it is to have the list eviscerated like that, thank you. I did not really take all of that into account. The majority of the players I come into contact with are Vanilla Marines, IG, and the occasional BA or DE.

So drop the chaplain, easy enough. that will easily free up enough points for another Assault Squad.

Trade the Dread for a second Stern squad, maybe. If I drop the dread, I would want to be looking more for an anti heavy/ anti armor choice. Preferably a longer range one such as a tank. (I'm not a fan of Dev squads I don't know why, I just seem to have bad luck with them.)

As for my scouts, I see them more as a squad that can go in, occupy an objective if need be, and bog down the enemy with sniper fire and be a general nuisance to the enemy advance. The thought with Tellion is he can allow the squad to split fire if need be, and in those really tight situations he can guide the shot of the ML to get a crucial hit on enemy armor. I am not really comfortable with just zerging in melee scouts when the majority of my opponents will just shake off their attacks.

Please correct me if any of this seems ridiculous or just plain wrong.

Oops, sorry to have come across as eviscerating.

I think the changes you're listing will work better. Note that, since Shrike can only infiltrate one assault squad, the second squad won't be able to join them in assault until turn 2, so you'll generally have more success infiltrating conservatively with Shrike's unit to coordinate big turn 2 charges (hopefully with vanguards as well) unless your opponent leaves something vulnerable in a spot where you can kill it and get out before his countercharge.

Having a third pod to leave in reserve as a dud is more important than changing out the dread. The dread will work okay, but only if he's on the table at the same time as everything else.

Going second is always the big obstacle with a Shrike assault army, especially if your opponent goes all in reserve to nerf your drop. Remember you can always just leave any number of empty pods in reserve and deploy the army normally. If your opponent goes all reserve, it's usually best to deploy everything (maybe leave sternguard in reserve in their pod), advance to the center of the table and grab some cover. Drop empty pods at the center of the table to provide extra cover in turn 1.

I have used the Telion/sniper unit with my mech marine army, and it does what you're thinking it will do (except Telion doesn't let you split fire to different units). IMO it doesn't mesh with the rest of the army, but YMMV.

No no eviscerate away, I would rather be corrected during theorycrafting than finding out the hard way in a game. That is exactly why I joined the site; to find constructive criticism.

My mistake with the split fire on Tellion, I didn't have codex in front of me when I composed that response, although the EoV could make for a nice IC hunter if I am not mistaken.

In regards to the Tac squad vis a vis the method of transport; I had intended for the group to combat squad allowing the ML and 4 bolters to take cover at deployment and have the rest of the squad (inc the sgt and meltagunner) to "ride in style" up to the front lines with the razor providing mobile cover and also extra fire support. I don't have anything against taking the pod per se, but that was my thought process on the razorback. EDIT: Also, having the drop pod as a back up/empty shell as you described.. wouldn't that make splitting the tac squad much less effective and remove most of the validation of having a PF and a Melta?

Now for the Assault and Van squads, after re-examining the list it seemed more likely that the assault squads would spearhead a quick strike and the Van would be more of a hard hitting back up/ response unit.

It has been pointed out multiple times that the VV unit, and mine in particular is a large point dump given the amount actually fielded and is quite vulnerable to being hit by a battle cannon and wiping out a substantial portion of my army. this leads me to somewhat of a bind; I like the concept of VV as a hard hitting "glass hammer", however it seems like in reality it is a bit too fragile for the list size I am using.
TL;DR: My VV unit is point heavy and now i am doubting if I want them in a 1500 pts army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realized that that list I have up has an error in it on the tac squad points making it a 1575 pt list, not the 1500 I originally thought.

Short of Telion, your scouts aren't going to do anything. They are objective holders first, speed bump second, damage dealers third. Never expect scout snipers to do any damage. The missile launcher is nice, and will pop rhinos, the like I said the snipers rarely kill anything for me.

You are troop light right now. You only have 2 troop choices, and one is a 5 man scout squad (very fragile). In an objective game, you are going to have a really hard time winning, or even tying.

With the razor, you don't have much armor, so all the missile launchers, lascannons, and multi-meltas are going at that thing (after your dread is dead on turn 1). So it is going to get slagged quickly. Just be forewarned.

Even at 1500 points, competitive armies won't have trouble killing/disabling a rhino and a dread in one or two turns of shooting. Since those are your only two vehicles* on the table, all antitank fire will be directed at them--meltas on the dread up close, and missiles or whatever on the razorback, stranding your melta hunter squad on the wrong side of the table anyway. In general, 3-4 is the minimum break point that makes vehicles viable. Fewer than that and you're typically better off with 100% infantry.

*I don't count drop pods as vehicles because any opponent who knows what he's doing won't bother shooting at them. The best way to take out pods is assault them with a spare power fist or meltabombs--autohits and open topped=dead pod.

The bottom line on the razorback is that you've got two melta units you want to drop in turn 1, and in order to do that you need a third pod from somewhere. With a Shrike & pods army, the game is pretty much decided by the end of turn 3, and sometimes by turn 2. You can't count on units you have to wait around for for longer than that.

I think it's a mistake to assume that Shrike plus an assault squad is capable of reliably making a turn 1 "quick stroke." Based on my experience, it hardly ever happens unless your opponent is very inexperienced. Even if your opponent doesn't want to start in reserve, any decent army will have a sacrificial unit (or cheap transports) for screening or bubble wrap. Take a look at this picture:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/157992-.html

The Tau player has actually left his right flank open, but you get the idea. If the kroot line were extended to cover the whole front of the Tau army, then the infiltrate rules would only allow you to get 18.1" from the Kroot, not the tanks, which are actually what you want to assault. The tanks are geometrically impossible for you to reach (and if it's done right, there's not enough room between the screen and the tanks for a drop pod).

So turn 1 you'd assault the kroot, wipe them out, and the entire Tau army guns down your assault unit in turn 1, before the VV even have their 50% chance to arrive from reserve. And any army can counter your turn 1 charge with some version of this.

The *threat* of the turn 1 assault is really the thing that figures in every game, not the assault itself. I think the VV can work in this list if you deploy them flexibly. They can also just start on the table and assault normally. Or they can infiltrate with Shrike. You don't have to decide where your characters are going until deployment.

So I'm going to try another list, hopefully one that is more valid.

HQ
Shrike 195

Troop
Scout Squad 5man w/ ML Camo and Telion 155

Tac Squad 10man with ML and Melta 170
drop pod 35

Tac squad 10 man with ML, flamer and power weapon 180
drop pod 35

Elite
Term assault squad 7 man 280

(This is the unit with Shrike)

Sternguard w/4 combi-meltas 145
Drop Pod w/ Locator 45

Vet Van 235
w/ 2 SS (1 on sgt)
1 PW
1 Relic blade
and 5 jump packs

which leaves the list at 1475. Points can be shaved from the VV squad and from the 2nd tac squad for another ATermie.

Does this list look more feasible in terms of survival and ability to score with troops?
note: the 2nd tac squad without a doubt and most likely the 1st one as well will be split into combat squads.

Both Tac squads are 5pts cheaper than they should be. Tyhey should be 175 and 185 respectively, which leaves the list at 1485. I would add in another weapon on the Vets, maybe Lightning Claw.

Yep, that should work. The only tweak I'd suggest is a multimelta on Tac1 since they'll be in the enemy's face for a turn 2 shot if they don't move. Also if you have extra points, a combi-melta on the dropping sergeant.

Deadshot wrote:Both Tac squads are 5pts cheaper than they should be. Tyhey should be 175 and 185 respectively, which leaves the list at 1485. I would add in another weapon on the Vets, maybe Lightning Claw.

Ah good catch, but not quite. the first one is true because i forgot to add in the melta cost, but a flamer is free in the second squad so it should be 175 and 180. As far as the LC goes i thought it was better to just take a plain pw if you couldn't do a pair of LCs.

a multimelta on Tac1 since they'll be in the enemy's face for a turn 2 shot if they don't move. Also if you have extra points, a combi-melta on the dropping sergeant.

So instead of the ML in Tac1 go with a multimelta? The combimelta will fit in nicely.

do you think that the amount of pods is right or is it excessive?

Three pods is a key break point because it allows you to drop two in your first turn. Four is no improvement, and five is overkill.

Alright, i wasn't sure what the "magic range" was. thanks for the help everyone. now to fill out all these models and make them presentable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So final List ends up being

HQ
Shrike 195

Troop
Scout Squad 5man w/ ML Camo and Telion 155

Tac Squad 10man with multi-melta and Melta 175
drop pod 35

Tac squad 10 man with ML, flamer, power weapon and combi-melta 195
drop pod 35

Elite
Term assault squad 7 man 280

(This is the unit with Shrike)

Sternguard w/4 combi-meltas 145
Drop Pod 35

Vet Van 250
w/ 2 SS (1 on sgt)
2 PW
1 Relic blade
and 5 jump packs

which leaves the list at 1500.

Edit: Fixed my math errors. Thanks for the spot Deadshot.

The second squad is indeed 5pts out. a 10 man squad with ML and Flamer is 170, a PW is 15, and a combi is 10.

170+15+10=195.


So the list is bang on 1500pts.