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I say the emphatic Obliterator special rule works in a catacomb command barge's sweep attack. Trazyn's special rule that it would only work in cc but the sweep attacks special rule overides it by allowing it to work, as its written. Anybody care to agree or disagree?


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Basically what im thinking is flying Trazyn over a mob of orks and using his emphatic obliterators special ability, wich would normally only be alble to be used if in cc, but sweep attack says that it the unit suffers a hit at he characters strenght plus any strenght bonuses and special abilities from his close close combat weapon.

So basically just looking to see if anyone could say no to that.

This question got asked at my local store the other day. I read the codex very closely with an eye to this, and I'm pretty sure the barge's sweep attack rules are specifically written to deny this.

1. The Empathic Obliterator special ability doesn't trigger on a hit with the weapon. It happens in close combat, after all attacks have been made.
2. The Sweep attacks made from the barge are never once referred to as close combat attacks. The are specifically and repeatedly described as "Sweep attacks".

What about the rules for the Sweep Attack which state the unit suffers a hit "... at the character's Strength, plus any Strength bonuses and special abilities from his close combat weapon"?

When you go to try and actually apply the special rules of the Obliterater you'll find that all the trigger conditions are highly dependent on him being locked in a combat in the Assault Phase.

"When Trazyn kills one or more enemies in close combat..."
"This occurs after all blows have been struck, but before the Assault Results are determined."
"To resolve the psionic shockwave, roll a d6 for every model in the combat ... a model slain by Trazyn that phase."

The initial trigger is killing a model in close combat, which the Sweep Attacks are not. Assault results are never determined during the Movement Phase, and you can't wait until the Assault Phase to resolve it because it must be a model killed that phase. You're allowed to try and invoke the rules, but as during a Sweep Attack in the Movement Phase you'll never meet all the conditions nothing happens.

In addition, the Barge is the unit that is dealing the hits, not the embarked Overlord per se. The hits dealt by the barge just use the strength and weapon qualities of the weapon the Overlord has equipped.

Mannahnin wrote:This question got asked at my local store the other day. I read the codex very closely with an eye to this, and I'm pretty sure the barge's sweep attack rules are specifically written to deny this.

1. The Empathic Obliterator special ability doesn't trigger on a hit with the weapon. It happens in close combat, after all attacks have been made.
2. The Sweep attacks made from the barge are never once referred to as close combat attacks. The are specifically and repeatedly described as "Sweep attacks".

Normally that would apply but the sweep attack special rule overides it with specificially saying that "the unit suffers a hit at the characters strength, PLUS any strength bonuses AND special abilities from his close combat weapon. Id say that the emphatic Oliterator's special ability would kick in due to the sweep attack's rule.

Can't you only use your close combat weapons in close combat? Wouldn't this mean that his rule would work when sweeping?

Kharrak wrote:In addition, the Barge is the unit that is dealing the hits, not the embarked Overlord per se

If that were true, then there would be a set value for everyone regardless of the model's Strength, etc. The rules don't agree with your interpretation.

Mannahnin wrote:1. The Empathic Obliterator special ability doesn't trigger on a hit with the weapon. It happens in close combat, after all attacks have been made.
2. The Sweep attacks made from the barge are never once referred to as close combat attacks. The are specifically and repeatedly described as "Sweep attacks".

This. The "special abilities" mentioned are things like power weapon, force weapon, etc. Things the weapon does, not things the model does.
Essentially, there's nothing giving you permission to make a CC attack. You're making a sweep attack that is similar to a CC attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:1. The Empathic Obliterator special ability doesn't trigger on a hit with the weapon. It happens in close combat, after all attacks have been made.
2. The Sweep attacks made from the barge are never once referred to as close combat attacks. The are specifically and repeatedly described as "Sweep attacks".

This. The "special abilities" mentioned are things like power weapon, force weapon, etc. Things the weapon does, not things the model does.
Essentially, there's nothing giving you permission to make a CC attack. You're making a sweep attack that is similar to a CC attack.

Trazyn's close combat weapon IS the Emphatic Obliterator, so that is what he would be using to strike with while riding in the command barge, Trazyn doesnt directly do this. Its also an item of wargear and not described as a special abilty or rule coming from him. The item ( emphatic ) in his entry has a set of rules that happens and yes, id agree that it should'nt work in the combat barge BUT the sweep attack says it can. I will say, its definatly another thing that needs a faq.

No, it does not work. It requires you to make the additional attacks before Assault Results are calculated, which is not a part of Sweep Attack. It also requires you to have fought a round of close combat, which again you do not do with sweep attack.

Garukadon wrote:id agree that it should'nt work in the combat barge BUT the sweep attack says it can. I will say, its definatly another thing that needs a faq.

Sweep Attack says it acts as a CC attack?
Or it's described in a similar fashion as a CC attack?

The former would allow it.
The latter doesn't. EO requires a CC attack, and SA isn't one not matter how much you want it to be.

Chrysis wrote:When you go to try and actually apply the special rules of the Obliterater you'll find that all the trigger conditions are highly dependent on him being locked in a combat in the Assault Phase.

"When Trazyn kills one or more enemies in close combat..."
"This occurs after all blows have been struck, but before the Assault Results are determined."
"To resolve the psionic shockwave, roll a d6 for every model in the combat ... a model slain by Trazyn that phase."

The initial trigger is killing a model in close combat, which the Sweep Attacks are not. Assault results are never determined during the Movement Phase, and you can't wait until the Assault Phase to resolve it because it must be a model killed that phase. You're allowed to try and invoke the rules, but as during a Sweep Attack in the Movement Phase you'll never meet all the conditions nothing happens.

This is the other half of what I was saying; sorry I was short; thanks Chrysis for completing it.

The Sweep Attack rules say to use the weapon's special abilities, but this particular special ability is phrased so that it does not and cannot triggered by a Sweep attack. A (somewhat) parallel case might be if he could take a Force Weapon, but failed his "to wound" roll with it. A Force Weapon has the special ability to cause instant death, but if you fail to cause an unsaved wound, that ability can't trigger. Similarly, the Empathic Obliterator can't do its thing unless you hill one or more enemies "in close combat".

Copied from my post above:

"id agree that it should'nt work in the combat barge BUT the sweep attack says it can. I will say, its definatly another thing that needs a faq. "

I wont try to use this when I play and ill wait for an faq to see what happens.

It just kind of reminds me of a situation where draigo gave a dreadnought the ability to capture an objective due to his grand master abiltiy. The brb says that vehicles could not capture and control objectives so it nixed the grand master ability. Then when it was faq 'd, you could use the dread to control objectives.

So here's to hoping that the faq will clear this up and say whether or not this is allowed.

The sweep attack does not say that it can work. The sweep attack does *not* say to mae a CC attack. That's why EO doesn't work.

From the description of power weapons on page 42 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed an armour save.

Emphasis added. So does that mean that you'll still get an armour save from the sweep attacks if the Overlord is equipped with a hyperphase sword?

Without the Sweep Attack rules in front of me, I'd say yes.

Then it seems to me a bit off that the rules for Sweep Attacks tell you that you can use the special abilities of the independent character's close combat weapon yet it excludes the most common special ability a close combat weapon is likely to have. It indicates to me that this isn't as cut and dried as some would believe.

You would ignore armor saves and get other bonuses (+2 s +1d6 armor for a warscythe) for Sweep Attack.

As has been stated, it is the specific criteria of Empathic Obliterator that prevent this from working. Trazyn needs to be 'in a combat' he is not when he makes a sweep attack.

If this stricture was not in place, it would work. Unfortunately for Necrons (and fortunately for Orks, Guard and Tyranids!) it is.

Read it again. Both the Empathic Obliterator and power weapons have the same criteria that their effects occur in close combat. You're ignoring the exact same criteria that the power weapon has that you're trying to enforce on the Empathic Obliterator.

Ghaz wrote:Read it again. Both the Empathic Obliterator and power weapons have the same criteria that their effects occur in close combat. You're ignoring the exact same criteria that the power weapon has that you're trying to enforce on the Empathic Obliterator.

I agree I think the nay sayers are hoping this does not work while many of us hope that it does. I agree that the EO would trigger off the barge as it is his CC. If it does not thaty means Scythes also suffer from this and would lose their 2D6 to pen and str bonus.

The trouble is that the Sweep Attack is not the model's close combat phase. I'm simply saying that just because the weapon's special rules state that they're used 'in close combat' doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be used in a Sweep Attack because that would disqualify what is arguably the most common type of special weapon from working during the attack.

Ghaz - not quite, given that Empathic Obliterator requires you to perform the attack before you calculate ASsault results. You never calculate assault results, thus have no ability to use EO

Nor do you have no ability to use a power weapon as it only works on models "wounded in close combat". I'm simply saying despite what the RAW says, its not as cut and dried as it seems and I wouldn't be surprised to see it FAQed either way.

I do not believe that it does, as the Empathic Obliterator specifies it only works in CC, whereas the sweep attacks take place during the movement phase. I think that makes this fairly straightforward.

Ghaz wrote:Read it again. Both the Empathic Obliterator and power weapons have the same criteria that their effects occur in close combat. You're ignoring the exact same criteria that the power weapon has that you're trying to enforce on the Empathic Obliterator.

My problem is with this part of the rule:

"To resolve the psionic shockwave, roll a d6 for every model in the combat ... a model slain by Trazyn that phase."

How do you determine which models are in the combat. As far as I can tell there are no models in the combat with Trazyn. If you can show me where it says they are in combat during a sweep attack, then you can use EO.

And you haven't explained how a power weapon that says it works on models wounded in close combat when you're not in close combat.

Ghaz wrote:And you haven't explained how a power weapon that says it works on models wounded in close combat when you're not in close combat.

Did you even read what I wrote at all or are you refusing to think critically about this. Let me try again.

"To resolve the psionic shockwave, roll a d6 for every model in the combat ... a model slain by Trazyn that phase."

Okay, I am willing to apply Empathic Obliterator. I wounded a model with a CC attack. I then check before combat results are determined but after blows have been struck (assume for a moment this actual moment is exists in the movement phase). I look for EVERY MODEL IN THE COMBAT.

Wait, there ARE NO MODELS IN THE COMBAT because I am NOT LOCKED INTO COMBAT. I guess that means all of the 0 MODELS in the combat have to roll a d6.

Unless you are somehow claiming that flying over a unit in the movement phase somehow puts those models in 'the combat.'

Edit: The blows are struck using the weapon profile, it is logical that if the attack benefits form special rules associated with weapon that you can ignore armor. I am fine letting you benefit from Empathic Obliterator, unfortunately I am not okay with you rewriting the entire EO entry to allow it to occur at a time that does not exist in the movement phase to models that are not in combat with Trazyn. While we are at it, let's just let EO affect any arbitrary model on the entire board.

And its obvious you didn't read what I wrote, So once again, here is what you wrote earlier:

You would ignore armor saves and get other bonuses (+2 s +1d6 armor for a warscythe) for Sweep Attack.

Now kindly stop changing the subject and support your claims that a hyperphase sword would ignore armour saves when the rules say that it would only do so against wounds caused in close combat.

This doesnt necessarily prove it but this is how I would imagine how things would go and thus show that the EO would work.

Okay so lets say Trazyn charges into a mob of orks. The orks swing away and Trazyn is still left standing. Trazyn then swings back and lops off an orks head with one swipe. All of the sudden a flash eminating from Trazyn's Emphatic Obliterator spreads out like a glowing disc of light, expanding out. The light causes several orks to grab at their heads as if Khan had put things in their ears, and then they fall as casualties, leaving only a few orks left standing.

Okay now lets say Trazyn is in his catacomb command barge, moves flat out over a mob of orks. As the command barge tips almost to its side while Trazyn hangs on, he swings down towards the heads of the orks and manages to catch one- CHOP! Again the Emphathic Obliterator takes effect, causing a ripple like wave of psionic energy, liquifying the contents of each green brute effected.

Anyways, thats just how I would see things working.