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During an apoc game today, a group of Necron Deathmarks used their special rule and marked a gargantuan creature. While it clearly states in the apocalypse rules (newest version) that gargantuan creatures may only be wounded by sniper/poison weapons on a roll of 6 (rather than their usual rule), the Necron player argued that it was their special rule which caused the 2+ wound, and not the sniper weapon.

Given the wording in new apoc book, especially the rather than bit, I feel that because the weapon is classified "sniper" it should have required a 6 to wound regardless of the special rule as it is negated. Personally, I don't like to see creatures of that size go down to silly little weapons like that.

Thoughts?

I'd think its a case of specific over general - in general, sniper weapons only wound on a 6+ (instead of a 4+). Deathmarks can wound on a 2+.

wow, it's sad but I'd have to say that the deathmarks' rule works against gargantuan creatures, sorry world.

I know this isn't RAW, but here's how I'd approach it. Normal sniper weapons hit on 4+, or 1/2 the time. Deathmarks hit on 2+, or 5/6 of the time.

(5/6)/(1/2) = (5/3), or 1.66x more often.

I'd want deathmarks to be about that much more effective in Apoc, just like they are in normal 40k. So if you normally wound on 6+...

(1/6)*(5/3) = 5/18 or 27.8%. The closest reasonable approximation to this is 6+ rerollable, which gives an 11/36 = 30.6% chance to wound. Going from a 6+ to a 6+ rerollable is pretty easy to remember and shouldn't slow the game down overly much.

It's obviously not RAW, but I feel it's a good compromise between "never works" and "always works."

The gargantuan creature rule is pretty specific too, as it's telling you how to apply regular 40k rules to creatures only seen in apoc.

The deathmark rule only takes into consideration normal games of 40k. A rule for normal 40k should not over rule a rule that affects gargantuan creatures in a game of Apoc. Most gargantuan creatures aren't worth the points in apoc in the first place, with the maybe exception of some of the Nid ones. Squiggoths and such do little damage and die quite easily as is.

Deathmarks don't have any more specific rules than eldar rangers, and many other units.



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In the end, it's Apoc. A bunch of guys getting together to play a big game. Make it not fun, no one plays.

One guy has a gargantuan creature, the other pops out his 10 deathmarks and blows it away. Last time you'll see someone take that many hundred point, many hundred dollars model, sort of defeating the purpose of playing apoc games.

RAW the Necron Deathmarks have a special rule that allows them to wound on a 2+ so would wound it on a 2+, because the rule applies to any attack made by the deathmarks against their "prey".

But as mikhaila pointed out, if your playing Apoc and try this you may ruin the fun of the game for the other player and they may not be willing to play with you again.

Really simple: create a house rule that gargantuan creatures cannot be selected as prey. Deathmarks keep their strength, gargantuan creatures still get to be only slightly not worth their points, and everyone wins.

azazel the cat wrote:Really simple: create a house rule that gargantuan creatures cannot be selected as prey. Deathmarks keep their strength, gargantuan creatures still get to be only slightly not worth their points, and everyone wins.

That would be more fun for most people and it doesn't invalidate the Deathmarks.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:RAW the Necron Deathmarks have a special rule that allows them to wound on a 2+ so would wound it on a 2+, because the rule applies to any attack made by the deathmarks against their "prey".

But as mikhaila pointed out, if your playing Apoc and try this you may ruin the fun of the game for the other player and they may not be willing to play with you again.

No, as RAW, the Gargantuan Creatures also have a special rule that means they will be wounded on 6's. I don't get what the big fuss is about this. The Deathmarks have marked the target, but the target cannot be wounded on 2's, rather it is wounded on 6's, regardless of wherever it is in CC or ranged.

The GC has a rule saying only sniper and poison weapons are bumped to a 6; so the deathmarks sniper weapon (4+) would be bumped to a 6+ and THEN their special rule which is neither a sniper or poisoned weapon kicks in and sets it as a 2+

So then what about Agonizers? They "always wound on 4+" -- does that hold against Gargantuan Creatures as well?

I'm guessing "probably," and my only response to that is "Why would I ever take these?"

This is one of those "codex trumps BRB" moments , its broken for now and I personally wouldn't play my 'Crons that way but...We will see what the FAQ brings.

Codex does not trump BRB. Specific trumps general.

Even if its a special rule allowing the wound on a 2+ its still a sniper weapon, which is only allowed to wound a GC on a 6+. with the exception of cc, etc.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Even if its a special rule allowing the wound on a 2+ its still a sniper weapon, which is only allowed to wound a GC on a 6+. with the exception of cc, etc.

Generally, sniper weapons fired against an Apoc Gargantuan creature wound on a 6+.
Deathmarks wound a target on 2+ with any weapon.
It's not the sniper weapon doing the wounding, it's the special rule.

So than it loses rending and pinning too? I mean apparently the "sniper" isnt wounding the special rule is.

Otherwise its a sniper weapon that can only wound GCs on 6's.

All snipers wound GCs on a 6+

THESE snipers wound on a 2+ because of a special rule.

THIS is more specific, as they are a subset of snipers

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:So than it loses rending and pinning too? I mean apparently the "sniper" isnt wounding the special rule is.

Otherwise its a sniper weapon that can only wound GCs on 6's.

Two handed weapons are a general group. More specifically, you can have Bolters, Sniper Rifles, Lasguns as examples.
Sniper Rifles are a general group. More specifically you can have the <insert name of Deathmark guns>, SM Scout sniper rifles, and I'm sure Tau have one as well.

All sniper rifles wound on 6+, only some wound on 2+.

See how a general "thing" can become more specific, making a lot of things that apply to the general group not apply to the specific thing?

not really as it says snipers wound on a 6+ it looks real cut and dry to me. I understand their rule allows them to wound the marked unit on a 2+, however in the end its still a sniper.

And it's also Apoc - you'll need to go through these things and agree on them beforehand so it's fun for all.

The specific wording of the death marks rules, does it apply to their close combat and attatched cryptek? if so the 2+ comes from the unit, not the weapon and therefore still wounds on 2+

Yes, it comes from the unit. Any Deathmark unit. Cryptek is included, and the rule specifies it works via both shooting and CC.

RAW, Deathmarks wound a gargantuan creature on a 6+ because their rule is very specific, which trumps the general rule about gargantuan creatures. However, RAW are also broken. See my previous post for the most simplistic solution.

I think snipers wound on 6s is more specific than unit wounds on 2s.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I think snipers wound on 6s is more specific than unit wounds on 2s.

All sniper rifles is more specific than these sniper rifles?

When you donate to a homeless person, do you give him all the money in your wallet, or these specific bills?

No, it really isnt

ALL snipers wound on a 6+

THESE snipers, using their special rule, wound on a 2+

What is more specific: all snipers or this subset of snipers? this subset of snipers

[ Taken by the void dragon. [

...but using a special rule that wounds THIS and only THIS GC on a 2+
THE most specific possible - 1 unit

nosferatu1001 wrote:...but using a special rule that wounds THIS and only THIS GC on a 2+
THE most specific possible - 1 unit

It's actually any Deathmark unit. If you have 2 deathmark units, the one mark works for both of them.

And "all sniper rifles" is less specific than "all deathmark units". I can prove it logically, and hopefully nail this coffin shut:

All Deathmarks have Sniper Rifles, but not all sniper rifles are carried by Deathmarks. Therefore, the rule applying to the Deathmarks is more specific than the rule applying to sniper rifles.

And just to make this completely a moot point, you can just take a Cryptek, such as the Harbinger of Despair with the Deathmarks, wherein RAW the Cryptek will be part of the unit, and therefore gain the benefit of the Hunters From Hyperspace rule, and can then use the Abyssal Staff, which is definitely NOT a sniper rifle, to auto-hit thanks to its template and then wound on a 2+ (my favorite). Or even better in this circumstance, take a Cryptek like the Harbinger of the Storm, and use the Assault 4 Voltaic Staff, which is again definitely NOT a sniper rifle, and shoot the creature. It will hit and wound on a 2+.

So again, since you're playing Apoc with a set of rules that were created before the Hunters From Hyperspace rule and therefore were written without needing to take this issue into account, and since you are so concerned about it being game-breaking, then why not just create a house rule that Gargantuan creatures cannot be marked by Deathmark units? It saves the Gargantuan creatures from being worthless against Necrons, but it still allows Deathmarks to be every bit as useful as they are in normal games.

EDIT: I cannot spell today

In the end, it's Apoc.

The people organizing the game should be setting up the scenario and the rules, not relying on a forum. You'll have a better time. Get together with your friends and set up the game, and deal with problems ahead of time.

Doesn't solve the problem where people are just showing up and throwing stuff on the table, but Apoc games with no scenario or referee, played with random people showing up at a store, each one trying the best they can to break the game, usually suck anyway.) In this case, skip the GC, take something with a STR D template, and kill all the Newcron infantry on turn 1.

I like the just don't let the deathmarks mark them as their prey suggestion.

But RAW I think they wound on a 2+. They don't get to take all gargantuan creatures on a 2+ just the one they mark.