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gcs only wounded on 6s with snipers.
dmark unit wounds marked on 2+

looks like the first is still more specific as the dmark one is a catch all. eldritch lances, snipers, gauss, tesla. ccws anything in the unit will wound on a 2+.

RAW and Apoc don't necessarily mix well. Rules written for regular 40k don't take APoc into account at all. Apoc is left wide open so people will set up games together and get to use all their models. Too often it becomes the case of "..and why did we bother setting this up just so you could RF the game?"

JD - no, the second is more specific

THAT single unit they marked are wounded on 2+. Any other unit they shoot at is wounded on a 4+ / 6+. In THAT specific situation their rule is the much much much more specific one

In Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition they've clarified this rule:

All sniper weapons and poisoned weapons wound Gargantuan creatures only on a roll of 6 (rather than their usual rule).

I'd say that's pretty clear - Deathmarks wound on a 6+.

The deathmarks aren't using the "usual rule" to wound. They're using their special rule.

We play 6+

Hulkster wrote:During an apoc game today, a group of Necron Deathmarks used their special rule and marked a gargantuan creature. While it clearly states in the apocalypse rules (newest version) that gargantuan creatures may only be wounded by sniper/poison weapons on a roll of 6 (rather than their usual rule), the Necron player argued that it was their special rule which caused the 2+ wound, and not the sniper weapon.

Given the wording in new apoc book, especially the rather than bit, I feel that because the weapon is classified "sniper" it should have required a 6 to wound regardless of the special rule as it is negated. Personally, I don't like to see creatures of that size go down to silly little weapons like that.

Thoughts?

what did he role?

I think that I wound go with a 5+, just to give them a bit of an edge compared to normal snipers. They are much more expensive and can easily be seen trying to hunt down and kill a big beasty in the theater of war. You'd think that they would be just a tad more prepare for that one foe they have their entire existence focused on.

Config2 wrote:You'd think that they would be just a tad more prepare for that one foe they have their entire existence focused on.

Being that most of them are Tyranids, would this not be at least as well argued the other way too?

Regardless, it is Apocalypse.

/shrug

kirsanth wrote:Regardless, it is Apocalypse.
/shrug

Pretty much this. If it bothers you too much just clarify before you start - just so that everyone knows what to expect. It's Apocalypse. These kind of questions will happen.

rigeld2 wrote:The deathmarks aren't using the "usual rule" to wound. They're using their special rule.

Yes, but some poisoned weapons wound on a 2+ as well - for them, that is their "usual rule". Same goes for Deathmarks.

sort of the same thing on if scarabs can affect titans. seems absoultly dumb to me that a 100pt scarab swarm can totally cluster fck a 1250 pt reaver titan at full health in 1 round of combat. and yea, ive seen that happen. scarabs flank march, show up behind totally undamaged reaver, and gank it. a 6 structure point titan DONE in 1 round. by 100 pts of scarabs....not fair at all.

but, deathmarks ability to wound on a 2+ is a unit special rule, not a weapon rule, so i would assume it works. but again.... just ridonkulus if you ask me.

DarthSpader wrote:sort of the same thing on if scarabs can affect titans. seems absoultly dumb to me that a 100pt scarab swarm can totally cluster fck a 1250 pt reaver titan at full health in 1 round of combat. and yea, ive seen that happen. scarabs flank march, show up behind totally undamaged reaver, and gank it. a 6 structure point titan DONE in 1 round. by 100 pts of scarabs....not fair at all.

but, deathmarks ability to wound on a 2+ is a unit special rule, not a weapon rule, so i would assume it works. but again.... just ridonkulus if you ask me.

That's why Titans should move every turn - Scarabs can hardly damage it when they're hitting on a 6+.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The deathmarks aren't using the "usual rule" to wound. They're using their special rule.

Yes, but some poisoned weapons wound on a 2+ as well - for them, that is their "usual rule". Same goes for Deathmarks.

Except the Deathmark "usual rule" is a normal sniper rifle. The specific rule is the Hyperspace Hunters rule.

Usually, sniper weapons wound on a 4+. GC make it so sniper weapons usually wound on a 6+. Deathmarks specifically wound on a 2+ against one target.

Bringing poison in is a red herring - there's no likeness.

Part of the rule that's relevant for those who haven't actually read it "Choose a non vehicle enemy unit on the battlefield to be their prey - place a counter next to the chosen unit to serve as a reminder. Any deathmark unit that shoots at, or strikes blows against a unit maked in this fashion will score a wound on a role of 2+". They could being throwing poo at it and it still seems like it would wound on a 2+. Never played apoc with them but seen people roll it on 4+ instead. House rules really help apoc.

Necrons break Apocalypse in every which way (Scarabs, Deathmarks, Solar Pulse, C'Tan powers, Imotekh, Anrakyr, Mindshackle Scarabs, etc).

That said, the Deathmarks special rule has nothing to do with their sniper rifles. Attached Crypteks or Lords would wound anything they hit on a 2+ as well. If the Deathmarks charge said GC in assault, they would wound him on a 2+. So even though their sniper weapons would wound on a 6+, it really doesn't matter, as their special rule would make absolutely anything wound on a 2+.

Before taking Necrons into Apocalypse, I'd discuss a list of house rules with your opponent.

mikhaila wrote:
RAW and Apoc don't necessarily mix well. Rules written for regular 40k don't take APoc into account at all. Apoc is left wide open so people will set up games together and get to use all their models. Too often it becomes the case of "..and why did we bother setting this up just so you could RF the game?"

I think this is the gist of what the ruling should be following. Apoc needs to be setup properly with a good organizer. Some things like solar pulse/deathmarks special rule need to be limited just like STR D weapons. It's just no fun if no one ever has a chance to do anything.

Here's a simple fix for gargantuan creatures in Apoc games and Deathmark marking.

Normally snipers wound on a 4+ and Deathmarks wound a marked target on 2+. Gargantuan creatures are wounded by snipers on a 6+, 2 higher than normal targets. So, if the gargantuan creature is marked, just add 2 to whatever the normal to wound roll would be. In this case the Deathmarks would wound it on a 4+ instead of 2+.

Sniper weapons wound on a 4+ (general)
GC are only wounded by snipers on a 6+ (specific)
Deathmark wounds a single unit on 2+, regardless of weapon they are using. (Even more specific).
My question is do necrons still have that "phase out" rule so that I only need to destroy 75% of the army?

No - the new codex doesn't mention it, so they don't have it.

DarthSpader wrote:sort of the same thing on if scarabs can affect titans. seems absoultly dumb to me that a 100pt scarab swarm can totally cluster fck a 1250 pt reaver titan at full health in 1 round of combat. and yea, ive seen that happen. scarabs flank march, show up behind totally undamaged reaver, and gank it. a 6 structure point titan DONE in 1 round. by 100 pts of scarabs....not fair at all.
.

People still allow Flank March? That's the quickest way to screw up a game of Apoc there is. Why take any other strategem when you can take an assault army and come in on the other guys board edge?)

The problem with Apoc is that a lot of peoples experience with it is a GW manager saying "everyone come play" and 20 guys showing up ready to screw up the game as fast as they can. Unrestricted Apoc games are like putting a dozen ADD 12 year olds in a basement with chainsaws and bbguns after you give them 4 double expressos and a shot of testosterone.

mikhaila wrote:Unrestricted Apoc games are like putting a dozen ADD 12 year olds in a basement with chainsaws and bbguns after you give them 4 double expressos and a shot of testosterone.

This. I wanna see this.

mikhaila wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:Unrestricted Apoc games are like putting a dozen ADD 12 year olds in a basement with chainsaws and bbguns after you give them 4 double expressos and a shot of testosterone.

The caffeine from the espresso will actually function as a sedative to kids with ADHD. Their brains require that boost, and so the caffeine will feed the desire and thus allow them to function normally. Now, the same situation with normal 12-year-olds...

However, it does seem to be more and more apparent that the Newcrons in' own the board in Apoc. Between the Deathmarks not caring how tough your Gargantuan creatures are, to Scarabs destroying your superheavy tanks in a single turn, to the Monolith triangle now working great with their unlimited-range teleporting, to the Stormlord taking all day just to resolve all of his lightning hits and even the good ol' pylons (because they have always been excellent), I think I'm gonna play more Necron Apoc games.

I've run a lot of Apoc games. After the first couple, we re-read the book, and paid a lot of attention to how the games in the book were set up. After that the process was a bit more than pick sides randomly and toss it on the table.

-We restricted a lot of what we felt were "Wow, did you see his face when I screwed his whole army?!" type of maneuvers. This includes things like flank march, restricting titans to battles where both sides have a couple, epidemius's ability, and other things that turn a 6 turn game into a 45 minute arguement and vow to never play again.)

-One small change is to limit 'global' effects to 4' sections of the board. Stormlord's lightning, Rain of Blood, and similar things only affect the board that player is on, not all 20-40 feet of the game.

-Nominate a captain for each side. Captain makes sure there are no overlapping Strategems. People who don't own a book (and thus don't know the rules for strategems) don't get to pick a strategem.

-Referee (who may also be playing) that marks the clock for set up, and asks the all important question "Anything sneaky and special you want to inform me about before the game?" This gives a chance for both sides to talk a bit and negate problems. When the answer is "Yes! I have 24 converted eversor assassins who will do 24 hits on every vehicle, and lone model before the game starts across 40' of table", then we have a talk and explain how just possibly screwing up the game on turn 1, while funny to one person, is sort of detrimental to actually getting in 6 turns of Apoc.

Then we beat him with a dreadsock.

YMMV, we like big games where tank companies and infantry actually matter, and we get to play 6 full turns.

mikhaila wrote:I've run a lot of Apoc games. After the first couple, we re-read the book, and paid a lot of attention to how the games in the book were set up. After that the process was a bit more than pick sides randomly and toss it on the table.

-We restricted a lot of what we felt were "Wow, did you see his face when I screwed his whole army?!" type of maneuvers. This includes things like flank march, restricting titans to battles where both sides have a couple, epidemius's ability, and other things that turn a 6 turn game into a 45 minute arguement and vow to never play again.)

-One small change is to limit 'global' effects to 4' sections of the board. Stormlord's lightning, Rain of Blood, and similar things only affect the board that player is on, not all 20-40 feet of the game.

-Nominate a captain for each side. Captain makes sure there are no overlapping Strategems. People who don't own a book (and thus don't know the rules for strategems) don't get to pick a strategem.

-Referee (who may also be playing) that marks the clock for set up, and asks the all important question "Anything sneaky and special you want to inform me about before the game?" This gives a chance for both sides to talk a bit and negate problems. When the answer is "Yes! I have 24 converted eversor assassins who will do 24 hits on every vehicle, and lone model before the game starts across 40' of table", then we have a talk and explain how just possibly screwing up the game on turn 1, while funny to one person, is sort of detrimental to actually getting in 6 turns of Apoc.

Then we beat him with a dreadsock.

YMMV, we like big games where tank companies and infantry actually matter, and we get to play 6 full turns.

You make me wish I was up your way, trying to help build a player base in general in my area as the last store shut down shop from having a baby (his oldest son helped him run store at 23). I like your rules for APOC and they sound like you really do have fun with APOC.

House Rule it:
1) Death Marks wound on a 6, with a re-roll against gargantuan creatures.
2) Scarabs only strip armor on a 6, instead of 4+ vs super heavies.
3) Mind Scrabs don't work on gargantuan creatures.

If you don't have all players involved forcusing on a fun game for everyone, I'm pretty sure nobody is gonig to have fun in apoc.

-Matt

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:sort of the same thing on if scarabs can affect titans. seems absoultly dumb to me that a 100pt scarab swarm can totally cluster fck a 1250 pt reaver titan at full health in 1 round of combat. and yea, ive seen that happen. scarabs flank march, show up behind totally undamaged reaver, and gank it. a 6 structure point titan DONE in 1 round. by 100 pts of scarabs....not fair at all.

but, deathmarks ability to wound on a 2+ is a unit special rule, not a weapon rule, so i would assume it works. but again.... just ridonkulus if you ask me.

That's why Titans should move every turn - Scarabs can hardly damage it when they're hitting on a 6+.

titans are walkers, they have a WS. unless youre using nades youll more than likely hit on 3s/4s.

HawaiiMatt wrote:House Rule it:
1) Death Marks wound on a 6, with a re-roll against gargantuan creatures.

So then what about attached Crypteks? The Harbingers of The Storm have an Assault 4 weapon that would apply. Better to rule that Gargantuan creatures simply cannot be marked.