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So, for the entirety of 5th ed, I've been more or less against heavy weapons in infantry squads (either platoon or vets). Mobility is important in 5th ed, so there's no time for troops to just be sitting around. Plus, it's a somewhat expensive way to distract your troops from their real goal of killing things with much more efficient special and power weapons. Not only that, but heavy weapons get WORSE over the course of the game. The beginning presents lots of fresh targets while the end of the game sees targets getting cover saves from your own troops more, target reduction not only due to enemy casualties, but because stuff gets in close combat, and because carriers of heavy weapons are usually vulnerable to good short-range shooting and assault which arrives on their doorstep mid-game. Meanwhile, while heavy weapons decline in value, short ranged weapons and especially assault specialists increase in value as the game goes on (not only because they're finally bringing their weapons to bear, but short ranged weapons are much more efficient killers, and see your troops on enemy objectives while you use them).

So, why have this diatribe about how bad heavy weapons are? Surely this isn't just a reiteration of an old position piece? The reason why is because I'm just now faintly beginning to see a use for blob-based and even vet based heavy weapons. The first thing to note is that, while mobility is still important, it can't be looked at just along an axis of space, it's also along an axis of time. With only median run rolls (assuming no passed "go go go!" orders), a foot squad clears 27" in three turns. This means that a unit directly across from an objective could leave on turn 3 or even 4 and still be able to threaten an objective on the other side of the board. Likewise, anything in a can (if it survives that long) gets to an objective on the other side of the board at the same speed. This means any squad that you have for the purpose of assault can spend up to two turns just dallying around in your deployment zone and still fulfill its job. Assault squads that aren't so close to an objective can still likely get off a first turn volley with a heavy weapon before they need to start hoofing it.

One of the problems with heavy weapons, though, is that they do pretty crappy damage during any given turn (for their cost), and have to rely on several turns of shooting, which they naturally wouldn't get if they just fired off a shot or two and were then dead weight for the rest of the game. This would mean that you would need to pick high-damage heavy weapons, as a single turn of autocannon fire or a single mortar or even a couple turns of heavy bolter fire aren't likely to accomplish much of anything, which is why I'm looking at the lascannon.

25 points is a lot, especially for a weapon you're only going to shoot twice (compare to two HK missiles for example). The thing is, though, even a single hit with a lascannon is likely to go a lot farther than other heavy weapons. I mean, if a lascannon dings a wound off of a demon prince, which isn't unlikely over two rounds of shooting, you've just gotten 40 points worth of damage with a 25 point upgrade. Likewise, you blow up or immobilize about 20 points of rhino, or 30 points of land raiders. In short, in just two turns, it's likely to roughly make its points back, which means the squad can spend turns 3-7 moving, and not even touching the lascannon, and it will still have been roughly worthwhile. Of course, the players would have to have the discipline to then continue to charge, rather than sitting and shooting (5th ed is a game of mobility after all).

Basically, the quality of heavy weapons is the amount of damage put out over time (compared to, say, meltabombs, which is damage all at once). As such, you can either increase the amount of time they shoot, or you can increase the amount of damage, even while decreasing the amount of time. Because you need time to move, you'd need to only pack high-damage weapons, or else the unit itself won't have the time to be effective in the mission. More importantly, you'd need a heavy weapon that was good early on, because early on is the only time when it's all that worthwhile to have heavy weapons at all (that you spent the end of the game moving, rather than shooting isn't so important when late game heavy weapons shooting is going to struggle).

Being able to successfully damage a sufficient amount of any of a wide variety of targets with one or two turns of shooting makes the lascannon seem viable, while every other weapon is stuck with a much more exclusive target list, or has difficulty guaranteeing the kill turns 1 and 2, or both.

Of course, it still sounds crazy. What say you?

If the rumors of rapid firing is true, I could see las/plas making a comeback.

I think conventional logic is buy tank killing units rather than multi-task power blobs. If the lascannons in power blobs can get the job done without impacting the blobs ability to do it's thing, you're cutting down on kill points you could give up.

Are you thinking lascannons in blobs to support your normal anti-tank, or is it instead of your normal anti-tank?

-Matt

In support, I suppose. I'm actually somehow envisioning them to be like combi-weapons. Something that you fire once (or in this case, up to three times), and then go about your business as if you don't have them anymore.

What's the rumor for rapid fire?

The Rapid Fire rumor is that you'll be able to double tap at max range if the unit did not move.

I have a friend who fields Lascannons in absurd numbers in his foot IG lists. This is exactly what he does except that he splits up into 10man units. They shoot a few times before moving into rapid fire range. It's very effective against pretty much anything.

Interesting idea. I honestly admit I haven't really thought about that way. I'm building a new IG army right now actually and I'm wondering how to make it potentially adapt it for decent competition without necessarily going all mech. Afterall, I want to show off the mixed Stormtrooper lead death korps + storm legion mixed unit. I got enough boxes for my GK army to ride in already.

so, along with this, do you think there's other uses like for missle lanchers in the same vein? I'm also thinking of some random grenade launchers just to give my men some s6 shooting vs all the tough (but fewer in number) melee units.

I was also thinking of some armored sentinels with plasma cannons too but not sure if that'd be all that useful.

I'll say this, that friend of mine takes Lascannons and grenade launchers in droves and they both work for him. Another thing though, is that he doesn't care for powerblobs. He just runs tons of 10man units. This hurts him in KP games but in objectives it's a pain because you can't target more than 10 guys without a Flamer or blast. The squads with Lascannons chill until there aren't any tanks to shoot and special weapon teams are full of grenade launchers and melta. Anyway, those things work wonders for him

I've started putting autocannons in my 20 man blobs. This gives them far more flexibility. Against combat armies you can sit back and shoot for a couple of turns, and when they get close jump on them with the ole power swords. Against shooty armies you run at the guns and leave don't use the autocannons. They're also handy for taking a wound, while keeping 2 attacks in combat.

Autocannons are far superior to lascannons I'm afraid. Obviously much cheaper but 2 shots means you're gonna hit most turns, and S7 means you can pop transports and still wound that demon prince, who has a 4+ invulnerable (I think) against your lascannon anyway.

That's what I think, anyway )

I'm starting to see the merits of grenade launchers and autocannons in a blob. A 30 man blob can release 3 S6 and 6 S7 shots, which with orders can be twin-linked against transports, MCs etc. Then when they move the GLs are still available to shoot. This seems to give me plenty flexibility.

Problem with a single lascannon or say 2 in a blob (same cost as 2 GL and 3 autos), is that's not a lot of shots and if I'm playing foot lists I may not want to waste an order on 1 or 2 shots. A single lascannon is also unreliable against vehciles. Even if you hit you are then relying on a decent armour penetration roll without modifiers - sometimes good, sometimes not. For this reason I still run lascannons as a HWS. The 48" range should keep them in shooting the whole game, 3 shots is worth an order and you are increasing signficantly your chances of damaging your target with multiple shots. HWS still have their problems I know, but I still feel that is the best place for lascannons (apart from vendettas or leman russes that is ...).

Sorry, best place for lascannons is surely Vendettas? 20 points more than a HWS... and twin linked without an order, plus harder to kill, and won't run away...

To be honest its a lot of points to pay for 1 shot. personally I'd take an Autocannon or Missile launcher

I run my squads with lascannons and flamers., shoot for the first few turns then advance in the later turns and torch the enemy with flamers.

Mr other infantry guard guy:

It really depends on what kind of guard you are running, you run more of an assaulty foot guard with a ton of melta and upgrades.
I run something akin to alpha strike foot guard, running as many autocannons and lascannons as I can fit in my foot list, while my assault squads aren't a swiss army knife like yours, I rely on those first few turns of shooting to get rid of what targets I don't want to deal with.

The squads that get lascannons usually don't move all game, or on the last turn or so to run to objectives, they are only there for a relatively invulnerable 2 lascannon shots a turn, HWS's are usually bullet magnets, 20 infantry in cover with 2 lascannons are too suvivable to reliably kill at range.
The trick to this army is to reach a saturation point, where your orders+heavy weapons+lasguns can cause significant damage to most armies in a turn or two while your 150 or so guardsmen spread out suffer virtually no real damage from ranged fire,, forcing them to come at you, bro. After the first 1-2 shooting phases the power blobs move up and start busting heads, the lascannons keep shooting until very late game when they run to get objectives.
If the enemy is tau gunline, or similiar i'll still usually spend the first turn or so shooting, focusing on close range anti infantry stuff so al'harim can do more significant damage when he arrives.

Mobility is provided by al'harim's outflanking melta circus and scout sentinals to contest objectives.

It's not perfect, but those lascannons really help with the av13 vehicles and instant killing things.

In a mech list I might take autocannons or lascannons in platoons to sit in the back chmieras holding objectives. As for blob guard, I took a lascannon in each of my 4 squad blobs purely to allow me the chance to sit back and shoot. means i can split them into 8x 10 man squads fi facing razorback spm, 20 man squads if fcnig slightly better equipped anti infantry vehicles, or 40 man squads meaning BID orders makes the guys very likely to bust up something before I advance.

Have ound usually depending on what your facing and how far aay the objs are you can get 3 turns of shootnig with the lascannons and then spend turns 4-5 moving on to the objectives with movement then 'Move move move' orders.

I prefer the lascannon in the Company Command squad. The higher weapon skill makes it worth while. Using the different commands to make it twin linked realy helps in the command squad. I know you can do the same to the infantry squads, but, the better leadership in the CCS helps. I prefer auto cannons or missile launchers in the infantry squads.

Regardless what anyone tells you here on these forums, it is your army, your money you are spending. Make it how you want. If you want a cookie cutter list, there are plenty to be found here on Dakkadakka.

sudojoe wrote:I'm also thinking of some random grenade launchers just to give my men some s6 shooting vs all the tough (but fewer in number) melee units.

I was also thinking of some armored sentinels with plasma cannons too but not sure if that'd be all that useful.

Firstly, plasma cannons in general are crappy against skilled opponents (say hello to one model touched per blast template), while plasma cannon sentinels are hideously overpriced.

Secondly, grenade launchers follow the same rules as heavy weapons, except they're 24" weapons, which makes them not worth taking. The whole point of heavy weapons is that they don't do much damage quickly, but they do it over a few turns. Grenade launchers are no different. They do MUCH less damage than plasma or melta, but get to shoot a turn earlier. The problem, though, is that once you start getting into grenade launcher range, you're starting to get into mid-range, which is just when heavy weapons start losing effectiveness. If you're in GL range, odds are good that you're going to wind up in close combat soon, which means you won't have enough time to shoot it to get enough damage out of them.

I've been waiting two guard codecies and two rules editions for grenade launchers to be worth taking. Unfortunately...

Grundz wrote:The squads that get lascannons usually don't move all game, or on the last turn or so to run to objectives

Certainly, but I'm wondering about lascannons outside of the gunline, either in a power blob, or in a vet squad before the chimera starts rumbling off.

sudojoe wrote:so, along with this, do you think there's other uses like for missle lanchers in the same vein?

Jamumools wrote:Autocannons are far superior to lascannons I'm afraid.

So, the point here is that it has to be a heavy weapon that behaves like a short ranged weapon. A melta or plasma gun might only get 2 or 3 shots per game, which is why they're so high in damage. Likewise, you would need a heavy weapon that is front-loaded towards high damage if you're only going to shoot it twice.

Autocannons CERTAINLY aren't this way. The odds of an autocannon putting down enough firepower to take down AV12 in just one or two turns is just too low. Given that it also does jack by squat to infantry units of all types, the only reason to take autocannons in infantry squads is if you KNOW you're going to be facing a whole lot of AV10 (and to a lesser extent, AV11), because that's the only target range it can effectively handle in such a short time.

The same is true, if to a lesser extent, with missile launchers. They can handle a broader spectrum of targets early on, but they still don't have that punchy power to really put anything big down in a couple rounds of shooting against all but a few targets.

Really, all weapons but lascannons fall into the camp of "little damage, many shots", which just doesn't work for a mobile squad.

The Crusader wrote:To be honest its a lot of points to pay for 1 shot.

But it's a matter of what you DO with that shot or two that's important. Not only does the lascannon approach points efficiency here, but it's the early game impact that's important here.

I mean, if you blew up a couple of rhinos with autocannons turn 1, so what? The guys inside get out and run instead. Likewise, so what if a heavy bolter killed a couple of orks, there's still a whole lot of them left on the field. But what if you took down a tervigon turn 1? What if you blew up a land raider turn 1? What if you aced a couple of ironclad dreadnoughts or vendettas carrying most of your opponent's anti-tank? Suddenly the game has changed substantially, and on turn 1 or 2, something which no other heavy weapon is likely to pull off.

Other heavy weapons are just about damage, while lascannons are about damage, and the ability to force your opponent to adapt in early game.

Ailaros wrote:
Autocannons CERTAINLY aren't this way. The odds of an autocannon putting down enough firepower to take down AV12 in just one or two turns is just too low. Given that it also does jack by squat to infantry units of all types, the only reason to take autocannons in infantry squads is if you KNOW you're going to be facing a whole lot of AV10 (and to a lesser extent, AV11), because that's the only target range it can effectively handle in such a short time.

This doesn't sound right to me.

Generally most competitive lists these days are AV11 spam. Coincidentally, Auto Cannons have the same chance to pen a razor back as a las cannon. (2 shots and pens 1/3 of the time vs 1 shot and pens 2/3 of the time), and Auto Cannons have a higher chance to get at least a glance (2 shots at 1/2 > 1 shot at 5/6).

So Las Cannons are better against AV12. But what armies are going to be fielding a lot of AV12? Pretty much Eldar and Imperial Guard are able to put the most on the table. Eldar for their part will be have energy fields on almost everything... and energy fields reduce las cannons to s8. So against Eldar tanks you are once again better off with the Auto Cannon since you get the same chance at penning, and a better chance at glancing for less points.

As a result the only armies where I'd rather have Las Cannons than auto cannons are against Imperial Guard Chimera Spam, and other armies which feature lots of units like dreads and storm chickens. But I certainly wouldn't say that Las Cannons are necessarily more high damage than Auto Cannons against the majority of targets out there.

Ailaros wrote:

Grundz wrote:The squads that get lascannons usually don't move all game, or on the last turn or so to run to objectives

Certainly, but I'm wondering about lascannons outside of the gunline, either in a power blob, or in a vet squad before the chimera starts rumbling off.

sudojoe wrote:so, along with this, do you think there's other uses like for missle lanchers in the same vein?

Jamumools wrote:Autocannons are far superior to lascannons I'm afraid.

I got where you're coming from now

so yeah, bad idea
I run autocannons in my blobs to help more men get into combat, and for those first few turns of shooting, and occasionally they shoot a little more.

I agree with you, point by point all these heavy weapons aren't as good as things like plasma or melta, but they provide some flexability to your army. If I'm fighting dark eldar I can lay down a ton of fire from long range, if I'm fighting razorback spam I can pop many of them in the first turn or so, instead of stomping across the map with weapons that /do/ cause more damage in the course of the game voeral, i'm frontloading my damage which further increases the armies staying power.
Like you said, its just a different way of playing its not right or wrong.

Well, so I'd still assume that the vets or blobs would take special weapons as well. 20 pts for a pair of meltaguns is still a pretty good price. This would be more spending 20 points to be good against anything that power weapons aren't good at, and then spending a further 50 points to take down those very few things that neither melta/swords is good against. In the case of blobs, a 21-dude power blob with 2x melta and 2x lascannons costs 225 points, but there's really not a lot it can't handle all by itself.

akaean wrote:This doesn't sound right to me.

Well, turn it on it's head. The ONLY thing that the autocannon is better against is AV10 and wave serpents.

Meanwhile, lascannons force models to rely on cover or invul saves, which makes a big difference against anything with an invul save (which is precisely the kind of thing that you're going to want to shoot at turn 1). Secondly, lascannons ID T4 models, making them better against things like obliterators. Thirdly, they have much higher strength which means they can more reliably handle high-toughness MCs (especially since they also tend to have good armor saves which autocannons don't negate), and they are also a serious threat to non-serpent AV12 (yes, chimeras and dreadnoughts, but also storm ravens, falcons, vendettas, defilers, etc.) and AV13 and AV14 as well, which autocannons can't even touch.

Autocannons are laughably terrible against anything but AV0 and multiwound T3 models. At best, they TIE the lascannon in certain other things. After that, the difference is that the lascannon kills stuff, and the autocannon doesn't.

... which I'd expect for being 2.5x the cost.

I have alternated between blobs with lascannons and multiple 10 man squads with either LC/GL or HB/flamer combos.

I am finding that the HB/Flamer combo can really assist my russes and command squads in later stages of a game.

I play mainly for fun/fluff but my opponets get quite unnerved by multiple heavy bolters raining fire on their troops. To a certain extent the 36" range of the HB seems to keep their assaults at bay longer than if i were to use my old tried and trusted autocannons in the same way.

The LC in my ten man squads augments my vets tank hunting abilities, Like you Ailaros I see them as one shot weapons when they do take down a light tank or transport it takes the pressure off of my vets allowing them to waste something else.

I do player larger point games where I can generally saturate the table with squads, moving and firing as I move. I'm pretty merciless when it comes to my foot troops though. I don't mind whole squads being targeted when playing objective based games.

Edit: post deleted

Ailaros wrote:So, why have this diatribe about how bad heavy weapons are? Surely this isn't just a reiteration of an old position piece? The reason why is because I'm just now faintly beginning to see a use for blob-based and even vet based heavy weapons. The first thing to note is that, while mobility is still important, it can't be looked at just along an axis of space, it's also along an axis of time. With only median run rolls (assuming no passed "go go go!" orders), a foot squad clears 27" in three turns. This means that a unit directly across from an objective could leave on turn 3 or even 4 and still be able to threaten an objective on the other side of the board. Likewise, anything in a can (if it survives that long) gets to an objective on the other side of the board at the same speed. This means any squad that you have for the purpose of assault can spend up to two turns just dallying around in your deployment zone and still fulfill its job. Assault squads that aren't so close to an objective can still likely get off a first turn volley with a heavy weapon before they need to start hoofing it.

Yup. I've explained this before in blob IG threads, including ones you've participated in. The successful tournament blob lists I've seen run lascannons or autocannons in most of their blobs.

Ailaros wrote:One of the problems with heavy weapons, though, is that they do pretty crappy damage during any given turn (for their cost), and have to rely on several turns of shooting, which they naturally wouldn't get if they just fired off a shot or two and were then dead weight for the rest of the game. This would mean that you would need to pick high-damage heavy weapons, as a single turn of autocannon fire or a single mortar or even a couple turns of heavy bolter fire aren't likely to accomplish much of anything, which is why I'm looking at the lascannon.

25 points is a lot, especially for a weapon you're only going to shoot twice (compare to two HK missiles for example). The thing is, though, even a single hit with a lascannon is likely to go a lot farther than other heavy weapons. I mean, if a lascannon dings a wound off of a demon prince, which isn't unlikely over two rounds of shooting, you've just gotten 40 points worth of damage with a 25 point upgrade. Likewise, you blow up or immobilize about 20 points of rhino, or 30 points of land raiders. In short, in just two turns, it's likely to roughly make its points back, which means the squad can spend turns 3-7 moving, and not even touching the lascannon, and it will still have been roughly worthwhile. Of course, the players would have to have the discipline to then continue to charge, rather than sitting and shooting (5th ed is a game of mobility after all).

I think your analysis is flawed here. A lascannon isn't necessarily more efficient over a short period of time compared to an autocannon. It depends on the target. The AC is cheaper, slightly superior against AV11 and substantially better against AV10. The lascannon does have a wider range of targets it's good against, though, which is handy since in a blob list you need your blobs to be able to take on a wide variety of units.

I honestly think Missile Launchers are alot more suitable than Las Cannons for an Infantry Squad. Missile Launcher is a dual-purpose weapon that can deal with Monstrous Creatures and hordes, and would definately make their points regardless of what you were facing.

Las Cannons aren't really worth their salt in an Infantry Squad. Unfortunately, the two best units for Las Cannons are the Vendetta Gunship and the Vanquisher w/ a Las Cannon on its hull, with formers high mobility and the latter's toughness, your more likely to do considerable damage to Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures without sacrificing alot of points for them.

Ailaros wrote:
So, why have this diatribe about how bad heavy weapons are? Surely this isn't just a reiteration of an old position piece? The reason why is because I'm just now faintly beginning to see a use for blob-based and even vet based heavy weapons. The first thing to note is that, while mobility is still important, it can't be looked at just along an axis of space, it's also along an axis of time. With only median run rolls (assuming no passed "go go go!" orders), a foot squad clears 27" in three turns. This means that a unit directly across from an objective could leave on turn 3 or even 4 and still be able to threaten an objective on the other side of the board. Likewise, anything in a can (if it survives that long) gets to an objective on the other side of the board at the same speed. This means any squad that you have for the purpose of assault can spend up to two turns just dallying around in your deployment zone and still fulfill its job. Assault squads that aren't so close to an objective can still likely get off a first turn volley with a heavy weapon before they need to start hoofing it.

This is how my friends play guard. They mix their heavy weapons- the only thing they don't take his heavy bolters, although mortars are more rare. AC or ML are common choices. It can work very well- a good run roll or two and/or an objective not the full 24" away (assuming they deploy 12" up) means they can also stand and deliver, although this is situational those extra HW's help- especially if they've moved up close enough to the objective and have clear LoS on the ass end of a dread threatening your tanks/arty.

Grundz wrote:
If I'm fighting dark eldar I can lay down a ton of fire from long range, if I'm fighting razorback spam I can pop many of them in the first turn or so, instead of stomping across the map with weapons that /do/ cause more damage in the course of the game voeral, i'm frontloading my damage which further increases the armies staying power.

I just cant understand how can you "pop many razorbacks in the first turn or so" only with a few ACs. I tried this fighting against rhinos/razorback/speeders (Armour 10-11) in several games. I have always been able to destroy about one or two of those vehicles in the whole game. Then I did the math. It takes 36 shots from an AC to destroy AV11 (3 to wreck or explode, 2 to get through cover, 3 to penetrate, 2 to hit with BS 3....3x2x3x2=36) and 24 shots from AC to destroy AV10. Please tell me, how is it possible you can pop many of those vehicles in the first two turns? Assuming "many" would mean "three", you would have to fire 108 AC shots...Do you really have 54 autocannons in your list?

to Ailaros: I agree that LC can do something to AV12 vehicles, but is it really worth it (20 points a piece for only 2 shots or so if you want to move in turn 3)? Just asking what is your personal experience (I myself did only try LCs in power blobs two times)

Lothar wrote:

Grundz wrote:
If I'm fighting dark eldar I can lay down a ton of fire from long range, if I'm fighting razorback spam I can pop many of them in the first turn or so, instead of stomping across the map with weapons that /do/ cause more damage in the course of the game voeral, i'm frontloading my damage which further increases the armies staying power.

I just cant understand how can you "pop many razorbacks in the first turn or so" only with a few ACs. I tried this fighting against rhinos/razorback/speeders (Armour 10-11) in several games. I have always been able to destroy about one or two of those vehicles in the whole game. Then I did the math. It takes 36 shots from an AC to destroy AV11 (3 to wreck or explode, 2 to get through cover, 3 to penetrate, 2 to hit with BS 3....3x2x3x2=36) and 24 shots from AC to destroy AV10. Please tell me, how is it possible you can pop many of those vehicles in the first two turns? Assuming "many" would mean "three", you would have to fire 108 AC shots...Do you really have 54 autocannons in your list?

Well the chance of an individual shot immobilising, wrecking or destroying an AV11 vehicle (probably a transport, hence immobilising should suffice) is
1/2 to hit
glancing (1/36, we can add this to the penetrating total)
penetrate-1/3
immobilised, wrecked or destroyed-1/2
so that's 1/2 of 1/3 of 1/2, or 1/12, plus the glancing 1/36 gives us 4/36, or 1/9.
Each autocannon has 2 shots so that's a 2/9 chance per weapon. Which isn't bad, really.
Chance of a lascannon-
1/2 to hit
1/36 glance (as above)
2/3 penetrate
1/2 valuable result
gives us 1/6 plus the glance, so 7/36, compared to 4/36 for the autocannon, which fires two shots, so the autocannon wins.
edit-just realised I didn't include cover. However, this leads into something else-
ORDERS.
That blob with three autocannons/lascannons can become twin-linked, or make the enemy re-roll his cover save.
twin-linked stats-
autocannon 3/4 to hit, plus stats from above...okay gonna have to switch to decimal
0.75*0.3*0.5=0.1125+0.027=0.139
So 14% chance, compared to 11% from above. With both shots gives us 28%. Definately not to be sniffed at.

Joey wrote:
So 14% chance, compared to 11% from above. With both shots gives us 28%. Definately not to be sniffed at.

Thanks for the math buddy

~2000-2500pts
times ~25 autocannons = about 7 transports a turn. 3.5 if they all have cover

I'll takes thems oddses

I concede. I ran some mathhammer about destroying stuff, and las cannons are actually coming out on top of auto cannons for a lot of these results. The proper formua for expected auto cannon damage

1-(1-to hit * to pen * to destroy)^ # of shots
which gives the odds of a result happening over multiple attempts does a bit to tone down the Auto Cannon's numbers. Tables give the odds of destruction, as well as odds to at least roll on a damage table! s9 is more powerful than one would expect. Or at least I would expect, being an Eldar player first and foremost and we pretty much just spam s6... I suppose the real question is are these numbers worth 10 points?



OH, one final interesting point

Auto Cannon has a 13.4% chance of nuking a tactical terminator
Las Cannon has a 27.7% chance of nuking a tactical terminator BUT a Las Cannon only has a 13.8% chance of nuking a Storm Shield Terminator.

Mannahnin wrote: A lascannon isn't necessarily more efficient over a short period of time compared to an autocannon. It depends on the target. The AC is cheaper, slightly superior against AV11 and substantially better against AV10. The lascannon does have a wider range of targets it's good against, though, which is handy since in a blob list you need your blobs to be able to take on a wide variety of units.

Right, the autocannon is ONLY better against basically AV10 (and multi-wound T3, and another, very short list of targets). I'd say the lascannon is more efficient, because if a weapon kills nothing, then it's not going to be worth its points.

Lothar wrote: I agree that LC can do something to AV12 vehicles, but is it really worth it (20 points a piece for only 2 shots or so if you want to move in turn 3)? Just asking what is your personal experience (I myself did only try LCs in power blobs two times)

I have no experience with this at all, it's merely theoryhammering.

KplKeegan wrote:I honestly think Missile Launchers are alot more suitable than Las Cannons for an Infantry Squad. Missile Launcher is a dual-purpose weapon that can deal with Monstrous Creatures and hordes, and would definately make their points regardless of what you were facing.

How much horde thinning are you really doing with a couple of missile launcher shots? When I've played with my horde, I scarcely ever see more than one hit per shot from enemy missile launchers.

As for the krak, you're still stuck with the autocannon problem. The missile launcher is only roughly as good against most of the targets that the autocannon is (and in some cases worse). Yes, the krak missile does have a larger target threat range, as you mention, but it's still nowhere near the lascannon.

KplKeegan wrote:Las Cannons aren't really worth their salt in an Infantry Squad. Unfortunately, the two best units for Las Cannons are the Vendetta Gunship and the Vanquisher w/ a Las Cannon

Yes, but I'm talking about augmenting the power of blobs and vets, not about where the most efficient place in the guard codex to take lascannons.

If Necrons prove viable and become more common, the prevalence of AR13 quantum shielding will make lascannons more important in all-comers lists--especially in the first couple of turns where the net effect of knocking down a command barge or ghost ark early will carry through the whole game.