Ever-living vs. Power From Pain

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**somerandomdude**

Simple: If a Dark Eldar unit with Power From Pain kills a Necron Character with Ever-Living, does the Dark Eldar unit get a pain token?

I say yes.

Then, if the Necron Character comes back to life and is killed again by the same (or different) Dark Eldar unit, does that unit get another pain token?

I still say yes.

Thoughts?

**Yad**

So long as Power From Pain triggers by removing an enemy model/unit as a casualty then I would agree. The RP rules specifically state that the model(s) must have been removed [from play] as a casualty to gain the benefit of RP/EP.

-Yad

**CthuluIsSpy**

Doesn't the rules for PfP follow the same logic as killpoints? If so, then no.

**ToBeWilly**

Power from Pain states, "Whenever a Dark Elder unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it immediately gains a 'pain token'."

If the Ever-Living model comes back at the end of the phase, it is no longer destroyed.

I would think the Dark Elder unit would only get the 'pain token' when the ever-living model fails its Reanimation Protocols roll.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Its on the FAQ, the unit/model must be completely removed from play in order to get pain token.

**Yad**

ToBeWilly wrote:Power from Pain states, "Whenever a Dark Elder unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it immediately gains a 'pain token'."

If the Ever-Living model comes back at the end of the phase, it is no longer destroyed.

I would think the Dark Elder unit would only get the 'pain token' when the ever-living model fails its Reanimation Protocols roll.

100% agreement.

-Yad

**Galador**

ToBeWilly wrote:Power from Pain states, "Whenever a Dark Elder unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it immediately gains a 'pain token'."

If the Ever-Living model comes back at the end of the phase, it is no longer destroyed.

I would think the Dark Elder unit would only get the 'pain token' when the ever-living model fails its Reanimation Protocols roll.

It may no longer be destroyed, but to be no longer destroyed, you must be destroyed first.

Also, it states in the PfP rules that when we destroy a non-vehicle unit, we immediately gain a pain token, not at the end of the phase. So, following that, at the time we gain the pain token, the model is destroyed.

**ToBeWilly**

From the Dark Elder FAQ:

Q: When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain
token for destroying a model/unit with the ability to
return to play. For example a Necron with the We’ll be
Back special rule. (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the
unit will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is
completely removed from play. In the case of a
Necron unit, a pain token will be generated once a unit
has been destroyed (even if some of its models have
returned into other nearby units).

Necrons can no longer return to other units, but that pretty much answers your question.

**Galador**

This FAQ post doesn't apply because according to ever-living, the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter. If the model was still just laid down, that would be different, but it isn't, it is removed from play, as per the Ever-living rule. And the last line of Ever-Living states that if the roll is failed, remove the counter from play. It also states that if the model cannot be placed for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. If you werew not removed from play, why would you need to return to play?

The model is removed from play once its last wound is taken, and it is replaced by a counter, hence the PfP rule gains a pain token immediately after the destruction of the model each time it is destroyed.

**DaKKaLAnce**

But the model still is not completely destroyed , so i dont see why you would get a pain token.

**Galador**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:But the model still is not completely destroyed , so i dont see why you would get a pain token.

Because when that FAQ rule was written with the We'll Be Back as an example, the model was not removed as a casualty, it was simply laid on its side. The model is no longer laid on it side, it is removed and replaced with a counter. Hence, the model has been completely destroyed and removed from play, it just has a chance to return to play on its roll, but at the time PfP is enacted, it has been completely destroyed and removed from play, as per the new Ever-Living rules.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Im pretty sure "completely destroyed" means it will NOT come back. The overlord still can come back.

**Galador**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Im pretty sure "completely destroyed" means it will NOT come back. The overlord still can come back.

However, heres my question... If the overlord is removed from play, but not completely destroyed, where does the model go when you remove it from play?? If you read under wounds, it states that a model that loses it last wound is immediately removed from the table as a casualty, i.e. removed from play. If you are removed from the table, you are destroyed. They are not placed in reserve, they are not laid down on their side, they are removed as a casualty, and taken off the table.

Last I checked, removed from the table meant you were completely destroyed and unable to continue fighting, and if the model is removed, that is when PfP immediately goes into effect.

**DaKKaLAnce**

But the Ever-living Rule would be the only exception... Since its still able to come back.. Which still would mean its not Completely destroyed.

**ToBeWilly**

"The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the
unit will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is
completely removed from play."

The model/unit must be completely destroyed. If the model passes it's Reanimation Protocols roll, it is not completely destroyed. You do not get a 'pain token'.

**Galador**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:But the Ever-living Rule would be the only exception... Since its still able to come back.. Which still would mean its not Completely destroyed.

But at the time that the PfP rule takes effect, it is completely destroyed, as per the Necron's own Ever-Living rule, hence it is not an exception.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Gain pain token, then lose it if he comes back= win

**insaniak**

Galador wrote:Because when that FAQ rule was written with the We'll Be Back as an example, the model was not removed as a casualty, it was simply laid on its side. The model is no longer laid on it side, it is removed and replaced with a counter.

Which amounts to the same thing. The model laying on its side was also just a counter. So long as that counter is there representing the position of the model in limbo, the model has not been completely removed from play.

If there is a chance of the model returning, however you choose to denote that on the table, the model has not been completely removed from play.

**Galador**

insaniak wrote:
Galador wrote:Because when that FAQ rule was written with the We'll Be Back as an example, the model was not removed as a casualty, it was simply laid on its side. The model is no longer laid on it side, it is removed and replaced with a counter.

Which amounts to the same thing. The model laying on its side was also just a counter. So long as that counter is there representing the position of the model in limbo, the model has not been completely removed from play.

If there is a chance of the model returning, however you choose to denote that on the table, the model has not been completely removed from play.

But it has been completely removed from the table, and must then return to play, that means it has left play completely for some period of time, hence making PfP take effect.

**insaniak**

Galador wrote:But it has been completely removed from the table, ...

No it hasn't. There's a marker on the table to denote where the model is sitting while it decides whether or not to return.

Again, this is absolutely no different to how WBB used to work. The downed Necrons were no longer considered models... they were just markers for WBB.

**Galador**

insaniak wrote:
Galador wrote:But it has been completely removed from the table, ...

No it hasn't. There's a marker on the table to denote where the model is sitting while it decides whether or not to return.

Again, this is absolutely no different to how WBB used to work. The downed Necrons were no longer considered models... they were just markers for WBB.

This is completely different, because with WBB, the models were not considered counters, they were considered battlefield debris. It was not until this new codex that a counter was placed and the model removed from play. The model was never removed from play, nor treated as a casualty with the WBB rule. It is both removed from play AND treated as a casualty in the Ever Living rule.

**rigeld2**

Galador wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Galador wrote:But it has been completely removed from the table, ...

No it hasn't. There's a marker on the table to denote where the model is sitting while it decides whether or not to return.

Again, this is absolutely no different to how WBB used to work. The downed Necrons were no longer considered models... they were just markers for WBB.

This is completely different, because with WBB, the models were not considered counters, they were considered battlefield debris. It was not until this new codex that a counter was placed and the model removed from play. The model was never removed from play, nor treated as a casualty with the WBB rule. It is both removed from play AND treated as a casualty in the Ever Living rule.

You're reaching. You cannot farm Necrons, Thrawn, St. C, or other similar models for PfP tokens.

**Galador**

rigeld2 wrote:You're reaching. You cannot farm Necrons, Thrawn, St. C, or other similar models for PfP tokens.

I am not reaching. I am stating an actual rule from the BRB. But lets break down your people one by one:

Necron Overlord: Removed as a Casualty, removed from play, place a counter, roll at end of of Phase = Pain Token.

Justicar Thrawn: Removed as a Casualty, removed from play, place a counter, comes back at start of his turn = Pain Token

Saint Celestine: Removed as a casualty, remove from play, comes back at start of her next turn = completely destroyed, which equals a pain token

And lastly, as per the Grey Knight FAQ:
Q: When does Justicar Thawn count as killed for the
purpose of rules like Power from Pain? (p43)
A: The first time he is reduced to 0 Wounds after he
has left his unit.

So, they are all replaced with a counter when removed from play, and while you cannot use another army's FAQ for a different army, I would say that the Grey Knight FAQ is on my side in this argument.

Now, what this does state, using Justicar Thrawn's FAQ ruling, is that the first time I kill you, I immediately get my pain token. However, if you get back up, reappear on the table, miraculously end up in reserve, whatever your rules are, and I kill you again, I do not get another pain token.

**rigeld2**

Right - you can't farm them for tokens. That was my point. And that is what you stated you'd be able to do.

**insaniak**

Galador wrote:This is completely different, because with WBB, the models were not considered counters, they were considered battlefield debris. It was not until this new codex that a counter was placed and the model removed from play.

Whether or not the rules specifically said to call them a counter or not makes no difference to their function. The model was laid on its side as a marker of where the model was when it was alive. You now place a counter as that marker rather than using the model... but either way, the end result is something that is not considered a model, that marks the model's previous location. That's a counter, regardless of whether or not the rules call it such, or whether it is a plastic disc, a die, or a model laying on its side.

Under WBB, the model was removed from play and became a counter. Under the current rules, the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter. Functionally, there is no difference. And either way, the model is not completely removed from play, since there is a possibility that it will return... which is why you place the counter in the first place.

**copper.talos**

Read the FAQ galador. It refers to abilities that "return to play". In order to return to play they must have been removed from play in the first place.

So no, killing a Necron IC will not give you a token. When he fails his RP roll, then you'll get one.

**Galador**

copper.talos wrote:Read the FAQ galador. It refers to abilities that "return to play". In order to return to play they must have been removed from play in the first place.

So no, killing a Necron IC will not give you a token. When he fails his RP roll, then you'll get one.

Yet Killing Thrawn will get you one, even though they both do almost the exact same thing at a different time?? They have the exact same circumstances, they are both reduced to 0 wounds, both replaced with a counter, and both return to play where that counter is on a die roll. So how can I get a Pain Token from Trawn when he is removed from play and then returns to play, but not a Necron Overlord who is removed from play and then returns to play??

I just can't agree that if the conditions are the exact same for them both, I don't see how one can give you a token for it and the other can't. The only difference between the two rules is when they roll to return to play, but even that is a moot point as they both fulfill the requirements for Power from Pain, which happens immediately after they are removed from play.

**Warbrucey**

There is a big difference between mostly destroyed and all destroyed.

Trawn, being the sporting fellow he is, gives away a pain token easier than Necron Lords. GK's playing nice, oh my!

**time wizard**

Based on the FAQ for Thrawn, I believe you would gain a token the first time a Necron with ever-living is reduced to zero wounds.

You would not gain a pain token each time the Necon is reduced to zero wounds though.

**Jidmah**

Maybe someone could quote the exact rules of both everyliving and Thawn? If they are worded the same, they work the same.