Twin Blood Talons vs. Scarab Farm?

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**I_like_u**

Just so this doesn't turn into a whole a bunch of posts by people who may not know the basic stats and rules of the units involved, I will start with a quick summary of the relevent rules.

1) Scarabs are T3 & W3, they can be instant killed by S6+, thus removing all 3 of their wounds at once.

2) Blood Talon Dreads are S6 or S7 (FC).

3) Dreads with Twin Blood Talons generate an extra attack for each unsaved wound they cause.

Given all that, here is the question.

If a Twin Blood Talon dread kills a Scarab, does it generate 1 or 3 extra attacks?

**knightpredator**

I would say 3, because even when you ID a scarab base, it counts as 3 for combat resolution.

**Ouze**

I think line 3, in and of itself, answers your question. It caused one wound, which was sufficient to cause instant death.

**Horst**

I'm thinking 1 wound actually... it only causes 1 unsaved wound, but then after you take an unsaved wound the instant death is triggered.

**tetrisphreak**

Only 1. The dread caused 1 unsaved wound that was sufficient to cause instant death. During combat resolution, the wounds caused will count as 3 each, but as far as the blood talon dreadnought's special rules go it can only generate one attack for each unsaved wound.

**I_like_u**

Is everyone just guessing? or are any off these responses based on RAW?

**tetrisphreak**

I_like_u wrote:Is everyone just guessing? or are any off these responses based on RAW?

Roll to attack - 4 hits

roll to wound - 4 wounds

Instant death causes 4 bases to be removed. However, because you didn't cause 12 wounds you only get 4 extra attacks. That's RAW.

**Portugal Jones**

RAW.

It caused one wound.

**Ouze**

Also, your phrasing on that last question "If a Twin Blood Talon dread kills a Scarab, does it generate 1 or 3 extra attacks?" is not ideally worded. It doesn't generate any extra attacks from "killing" anything.

**Abarb**

One unsaved wound equals one additional attack. That is the way Blood talons are wrote out. If Blood talons could get 3 additional attacks for one unsaved wound that would be sick

for BA and suck for Nercons

.

**SlaveToDorkness**

BRB pg 39, right column, 4th paragraph. RAW the model suffers 3 wounds.

**Abarb**

SlaveToDorkness wrote:BRB pg 39, right column, 4th paragraph. RAW the model suffers 3 wounds.

So if I read the 4th paragraph right you get 3 additional attacks?

**SlaveToDorkness**

Each wound caused by Instant Death counts as a wound in combat. So, yes.

**Abarb**

Bring on the Scarabs then!

**kirsanth**

SlaveToDorkness wrote:BRB pg 39, right column, 4th paragraph. RAW the model suffers 3 wounds.

That lets you know to count those wounds for combat resolution.

Page 26 referencing Instant Death only mentions one wound being dealt to multi-wound creatures.

**Mannahnin**

One wound is dealt, but..

a) Three wounds are lost by the model
b) Three woulds count as inflicted for combat resolution

**SlaveToDorkness**

CC is the only place where wounds lost are tallied though.

It's in B/W on pg 39:

(including all of the Wounds lost by models that have suffered Instant Death)

**CT GAMER**

I see a distinction in RAW between "unsaved wounds caused" and "wounds counted for combat resolution".

You caused one unsaved wound that autokilled the base. Thus you get ONE extra attack.

Then when combat resolution comes the rules instruct you to count all the wounds that were present for resolution. Thus THREE.

**Mannahnin**

But Instant Death causes the model to lose ALL of its wounds. The CR rules just clarify that yes, all of those lost wounds do indeed count, for more than just killing the model.

**Irdiumstern**

The section you are referencing is specifically for Combat Resolution. It says no such thing in the actual Instant Death section of the rulebook.
1 wound caused by the dread kills one base. There's nothing in the rules that says all remaining wounds are lost by the model.

**Mannahnin**

Instant Death on page 26 tells you the model is removed as a casualty.

Determine Assault Results on pag 39 tells you that you "total the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents" to determine who wins. It clarifies in a later paragraph that "Note that wounds that have been negated by saving throws or other special rules that have similar effects do not count, nor do wounds in excess of a model's Wounds characteristic, only the wounds actually suffered by enemy models (including all of the Wounds lost by models that have suffered Instant Death)".

This is telling us quite clearly that those wounds are actually lost. And that Combat Resolution is based on wounds that are actually lost by models.

**Jidmah**

"unsaved wound" is a defined term in WH40k. It is defined as a wound that was not saved or that no saves can be taken against. Unsaved wounds may cause instant death, trigger FNP or simply remove a single Wound from the target's profile.

You have to remove an entire swarm base for each unsaved wound a blood talon dread causes, and you may attack again for each unsaved wound it it causes. Simple as that.

**Dok**

Doesn't the wording for blood talons reference Failed armour saves? As in "for each failed armour save, you generate an additional attack"? I don't have my codex handy, but with that wording, then I would say it's 1.

**pretre**

@Dok: That would be horrible wording, since Blood Talons are power weapons and don't give armour saves.

It says 'for every unsaved wound'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, I really like the difference here between 'unsaved wounds caused' which is what the Blood Talons do. And 'unsaved wounds taken' which is what instant death strength does to the model.

**DeathReaper**

Jid has it correct.

"For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in CC, the Dread immediately makes an additional attack."

you cause 1 unsaved Str 6 wound, you get 1 extra attack, no matter if that attack caused ID or not.

With Blood talon dreads the scarabs wont do much to it anyway, since you get 4 attacks on the charge and ID for every unsaved wound, you will most likely kill 10-15 bases before they get to attack you.

**Dok**

pretre wrote:@Dok: That would be horrible wording, since Blood Talons are power weapons and don't give armour saves.

It says 'for every unsaved wound'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, I really like the difference here between 'unsaved wounds caused' which is what the Blood Talons do. And 'unsaved wounds taken' which is what instant death strength does to the model.

Ah yeah, that's right. You can't blame me for thinking that something in the BA codex would have horrible wording though

**Mannahnin**

I actually disagree with you, DR. The Determine Assault Results section of the rules explains to us that all wounds lost due to instant death ARE actually inflicted on those models. It goes into some detail to make sure we know how many wounds really are being caused. If you (for example) cause Instant Death to a 3W model which only has 2W remaining, you've actually only caused 2W. But you've cause two wounds there, not just one.

**DeathReaper**

But how many of those were Unsaved Wounds?

Just one.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

I find myself agreeing with DR here, as Blood Talons specifies for each unsaved it will generate an additional attack.

ID going from memory is also inflicted for each unsaved wound.

So 3 hits, 3 unsaved wounds. Would literally be 9 wounds, but only generate an additional 3 attacks.

**Zalmout**

Given the rules presented I would say it goes by each unsaved wound the blood talons cause. Not be wounds caused for purposes of combat resolution.