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Just looking at my book, as I am sorting through my new forces and two questions come to mind.

1) How overpowered is the Vendetta, its 30pts more than a Valkyrie, does everything a Valkyrie does, but has three twin linked lascannons on it, instead of a multi-laser and two Hellstrike missiles. How did Cruddace point that fella up?

2) Also why in hells teeth, didn't GW do a Valkyrie/Vendetta kit. They are pretty much identical except for weapon loadout. They could have had a twin-linked lascannon to slot in where the multi-laser/lascannon goes and had two under wing twin lascannons and the kits would be fully done. Are they seriously planning to recut a Valkyrie and release with three twin linked lascannons at some point. Seems blinkin bizzare to me.


To expand on this slightly pointless what the Feth moment, I open up the thread to anyone else looking at GW 40K kits and wondering why they didn't do the obvious, or units that are way under pointed for what they can do.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Just looking at my book, as I am sorting through my new forces and two questions come to mind.

1) How overpowered is the Vendetta, its 30pts more than a Valkyrie, does everything a Valkyrie does, but has three twin linked lascannons on it, instead of a multi-laser and two Hellstrike missiles. How did Cruddace point that fella up?

2) Also why in hells teeth, didn't GW do a Valkyrie/Vendetta kit. They are pretty much identical except for weapon loadout. They could have had a twin-linked lascannon to slot in where the multi-laser/lascannon goes and had two under wing twin lascannons and the kits would be fully done. Are they seriously planning to recut a Valkyrie and release with three twin linked lascannons at some point. Seems blinkin bizzare to me.


To expand on this slightly pointless what the Feth moment, I open up the thread to anyone else looking at GW 40K kits and wondering why they didn't do the obvious, or units that are way under pointed for what they can do.

1) Because Cruddace is terrible at writting codices

2) Because FW wants more money. And I guess that GW is assuming that guard players already have enough spare lascannons from the HWTs.

Hmm didn't spot the FW kit. £15 to get the Vendetta parts.

The Voidraven. Almost Identical to a Razorwing, but with no convversion kit, parts in the box or FW parts.

Not. Happy.

Seemingly, the Vendetta is just Cruddace being dumb.

As for why it wasn't included, FW was already developing it long before the IG book came out. It was one of the first things they had in mind for Elysians for IA8 apparently, along with the buggies.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Just looking at my book, as I am sorting through my new forces and two questions come to mind.

1) How overpowered is the Vendetta, its 30pts more than a Valkyrie, does everything a Valkyrie does, but has three twin linked lascannons on it, instead of a multi-laser and two Hellstrike missiles. How did Cruddace point that fella up?

Isn't the Vendetta not a transport? and iirc the Valk has some special disembarking rules, right? (codexes got stolen a couple months ago and I haven't replaced them yet).

Nope, share all the same rules.

Ah, that makes sense with the FW thing, looking at it, £15 is expensive for basically three Lascannons, but it'll better than anything I could kitbash.

So once again FW will be getting my money. Just got a 'proper' Hellhound off them last week.

Okay, I'll point out the obvious one here: Rhinos.

It's a waste of money for GW to package these as a separate box from the Razorbacks, and the concept can't be lost on GW as they share the same assembly instruction booklet.

Not all armies which can have Rhinos can have Razorbacks, but all armies which can have Razorbacks can have Rhinos.

Yeah, but most of us players who take rhinos have figured out to buy the razorback kit and sell the turret, if we aren't using it. GW should just package them together at razorback price-discontinue the rhino box.

Either way, you are better off buying the Razorback kit instead of the Rhino kit.

You can Trade/sell the guns that come with the Rback if you do not need them.

For example, in Britain the Razorback and Rhino are exactly the same price.

Which one would you buy? The one with a free turret or the basic set?

timetowaste85 wrote:Yeah, but most of us players who take rhinos have figured out to buy the razorback kit and sell the turret, if we aren't using it. GW should just package them together at razorback price-discontinue the rhino box.

So because players use the secondhand market to eat the expense(usually 2-3 dollars or the equivalent in their currency), GW should alter how they produce things?

The Rhino doesn't just sell to Space Marine players. Chaos Marine players buy it, Ork players used to(and I'm sure some still do) buy it, Inquisition players bought it(although now the Grey Knights book allows for Razorbacks as well, this was not always the case), Sisters players bought it(with the new plastic Immolator kit I don't know if any still do), and so on and so forth. Let's not forget that Forge World also sells a lot of Rhinos through their site at the same time they sell their doors for the Rhino.

Kanluwen wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Yeah, but most of us players who take rhinos have figured out to buy the razorback kit and sell the turret, if we aren't using it. GW should just package them together at razorback price-discontinue the rhino box.

So because players use the secondhand market to eat the expense(usually 2-3 dollars or the equivalent in their currency), GW should alter how they produce things?

The Rhino doesn't just sell to Space Marine players. Chaos Marine players buy it, Ork players used to(and I'm sure some still do) buy it, Inquisition players bought it(although now the Grey Knights book allows for Razorbacks as well, this was not always the case), Sisters players bought it(with the new plastic Immolator kit I don't know if any still do), and so on and so forth. Let's not forget that Forge World also sells a lot of Rhinos through their site at the same time they sell their doors for the Rhino.

Not to mention that the ForgeWorld weapon kits for Razorbacks come with a "normal" rhino and the parts to assemble the one turret you bought.

As far as kit stupidity goes, I give you the IG Basilisk! Standard equipment in the entry includes a hull HB. Box artwork shows hull HB, instructions show hull HB. The actual kit? No hull HB.

Manticore.

GW: "I know! Lets twin it with the Deathstrike instead of the Hydra. We haven't got enough room for the added money in the barrel anyway".

Steelmage99 wrote:Manticore.

GW: "I know! Lets twin it with the Deathstrike instead of the Hydra. We haven't got enough room for the added money in the barrel anyway".

Yeah, I know, pairing a missile launcher with a missile launcher is just so dumb!

Exile wrote:As far as kit stupidity goes, I give you the IG Basilisk! Standard equipment in the entry includes a hull HB. Box artwork shows hull HB, instructions show hull HB. The actual kit? No hull HB.

Duh. The Heavy Bolter is a Forge World only purchase and costs $10,000,000 (£999,999).

More to the money barrel!

No, my gripe with it is:

WHY NO HYDRA!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!
Seriously, as soon as a Plastic hydra kit comes out, I will be taking 9 of them.

The Basilisk was a lazy repackage which just packed the old Basilisk sprues with the new Chimera sprues without any real thought as to what was on the new Chimera sprue.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:2) Also why in hells teeth, didn't GW do a Valkyrie/Vendetta kit. They are pretty much identical except for weapon loadout.

Because, I suspect, the Vendetta was added to the rules late in the game, and after the plastic kit was done.

Kanluwen wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Yeah, but most of us players who take rhinos have figured out to buy the razorback kit and sell the turret, if we aren't using it. GW should just package them together at razorback price-discontinue the rhino box.

So because players use the secondhand market to eat the expense(usually 2-3 dollars or the equivalent in their currency), GW should alter how they produce things?

The Rhino doesn't just sell to Space Marine players. Chaos Marine players buy it, Ork players used to(and I'm sure some still do) buy it, Inquisition players bought it(although now the Grey Knights book allows for Razorbacks as well, this was not always the case), Sisters players bought it(with the new plastic Immolator kit I don't know if any still do), and so on and so forth. Let's not forget that Forge World also sells a lot of Rhinos through their site at the same time they sell their doors for the Rhino.

...Aaaand you've missed the point entirely.

From a company perspective: It costs more to put the same product into two different boxes. Smart move would be to discontinue the Rhino kit.

From a player perspective: There is absolutely nothing you can do with a Rhino kit that you cannot do with a Razorback kit, however the reverse is not true. Smart move is to buy the Razorback.

So, the smarter decision from both the company's standpoint and from the player's is to live in a world without Rhino kits.

azazel the cat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Yeah, but most of us players who take rhinos have figured out to buy the razorback kit and sell the turret, if we aren't using it. GW should just package them together at razorback price-discontinue the rhino box.

So because players use the secondhand market to eat the expense(usually 2-3 dollars or the equivalent in their currency), GW should alter how they produce things?

The Rhino doesn't just sell to Space Marine players. Chaos Marine players buy it, Ork players used to(and I'm sure some still do) buy it, Inquisition players bought it(although now the Grey Knights book allows for Razorbacks as well, this was not always the case), Sisters players bought it(with the new plastic Immolator kit I don't know if any still do), and so on and so forth. Let's not forget that Forge World also sells a lot of Rhinos through their site at the same time they sell their doors for the Rhino.

...Aaaand you've missed the point entirely.

No, I really didn't. You missed the point I made.

From a company perspective: It costs more to put the same product into two different boxes. Smart move would be to discontinue the Rhino kit.

From a player perspective: There is absolutely nothing you can do with a Rhino kit that you cannot do with a Razorback kit, however the reverse is not true. Smart move is to buy the Razorback.

So, the smarter decision from both the company's standpoint and from the player's is to live in a world without Rhino kits.

The "smarter decision" is to to look at the profits of the kits.

The Rhino is, from a reasonable point of assumption, selling well enough to justify its continued existence. If it was not doing well enough, one could assume that it would be packed in at the first chance.

That said, it still does not change the point I made: the Rhino kit exists because despite the convenience of the Razorback kit not everyone has access to them.

Kanluwen wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Yeah, but most of us players who take rhinos have figured out to buy the razorback kit and sell the turret, if we aren't using it. GW should just package them together at razorback price-discontinue the rhino box.

So because players use the secondhand market to eat the expense(usually 2-3 dollars or the equivalent in their currency), GW should alter how they produce things?

The Rhino doesn't just sell to Space Marine players. Chaos Marine players buy it, Ork players used to(and I'm sure some still do) buy it, Inquisition players bought it(although now the Grey Knights book allows for Razorbacks as well, this was not always the case), Sisters players bought it(with the new plastic Immolator kit I don't know if any still do), and so on and so forth. Let's not forget that Forge World also sells a lot of Rhinos through their site at the same time they sell their doors for the Rhino.

...Aaaand you've missed the point entirely.

No, I really didn't. You missed the point I made.

From a company perspective: It costs more to put the same product into two different boxes. Smart move would be to discontinue the Rhino kit.

From a player perspective: There is absolutely nothing you can do with a Rhino kit that you cannot do with a Razorback kit, however the reverse is not true. Smart move is to buy the Razorback.

So, the smarter decision from both the company's standpoint and from the player's is to live in a world without Rhino kits.

The "smarter decision" is to to look at the profits of the kits.

The Rhino is, from a reasonable point of assumption, selling well enough to justify its continued existence. If it was not doing well enough, one could assume that it would be packed in at the first chance.

That said, it still does not change the point I made: the Rhino kit exists because despite the convenience of the Razorback kit not everyone has access to them.

Well, let's look at this.

In Britain, they sell for the same price. In America, $2 more. For $2 you get a turret which you can sell on to other people, plus the basic rhino. I think I know that spending all of the extra money is really not worth it to give other armies what they want. One of the parts of the actual rhino box is the plate to fix a turret onto.

Anyway, I think GW would make more money if they just had the Razorback.

For $2 you get a turret which you can attempt to sell on to other people.

When you come down to it, you're usually spending $2-3 to ship and insure the piece...resulting in a profit of either $0 or a loss of $1.

Well Cruddace did produce the Tyranid Elite slot....And on the Nid theme Wot no Tervigon???

Kanluwen wrote:For $2 you get a turret which you can attempt to sell on to other people.

When you come down to it, you're usually spending $2-3 to ship and insure the piece...resulting in a profit of either $0 or a loss of $1.

That turret sells for like $10.... and you charge shipping on top of that.

Kanluwen wrote:The "smarter decision" is to to look at the profits of the kits.

The Rhino is, from a reasonable point of assumption, selling well enough to justify its continued existence. If it was not doing well enough, one could assume that it would be packed in at the first chance.

Sales of Model X + Sales of Model Y - Cost to produce Model X - Cost to produce Model y = profit margin.
vs.
Sales of Model X + Sales of Model Y - Cost to produce Model X = greater profit margin at a difference of the cost to produce Model Y

The assumption is not reasonable. It is logical, but given the stubbornness of the company in question, I don't think that "reasonable" is the correct adjective. Your faith-based position needs to be re-evaluated once you've considered the irony here. You appear to be taking the standpoint that you have faith in GW having made the best decision, in a thread dedicated to GW's strange, nonsensical and poor decisions with their product.

Kanluwen wrote:That said, it still does not change the point I made: the Rhino kit exists because despite the convenience of the Razorback kit not everyone has access to them.

...So the point you made is that you've never realized that the model for the Rhino is just the Razorback model minus the turret?

azazel the cat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "smarter decision" is to to look at the profits of the kits.

The Rhino is, from a reasonable point of assumption, selling well enough to justify its continued existence. If it was not doing well enough, one could assume that it would be packed in at the first chance.

Sales of Model X + Sales of Model Y - Cost to produce Model X - Cost to produce Model y = profit margin.
vs.
Sales of Model X + Sales of Model Y - Cost to produce Model X = greater profit margin at a difference of the cost to produce Model Y

The assumption is not reasonable. It is logical, but given the stubbornness of the company in question, I don't think that "reasonable" is the correct adjective. Your faith-based position needs to be re-evaluated once you've considered the irony here. You appear to be taking the standpoint that you have faith in GW having made the best decision, in a thread dedicated to GW's strange, nonsensical and poor decisions with their product.

And you appear to be taking the standpoint that because they do strange, nonsensical and poor decisions with their product--it means every single thing they do is compatible with that idea.

The Hydra/Manticore thing makes perfect sense when you actually stop and think. The Manticore and Hydra being the same shared kit relies upon the assumption that the Manticore kept the same turret bit that it had originally when the FW versions shared the same turret base.

The "new"(and far less attractive) Manticore does not share that option...so how do you propose that one works?

Kanluwen wrote:That said, it still does not change the point I made: the Rhino kit exists because despite the convenience of the Razorback kit not everyone has access to them.

...So the point you made is that you've never realized that the model for the Rhino is just the Razorback model minus the turret?

I'm well aware of the difference between a Rhino and Razorback kit, thank you.
Just like I'm aware of the fact that it's a dumb idea to buy a Basilisk kit now because you'll be missing the hull Heavy Bolter option--and the Basilisk just doesn't look good unless it's the Armageddon pattern one.

The point you still fail to grasp is that GW is a company of beancounters. They combined the Leman Russ variants into a single box, and have had many chances to combine the Rhino with the Razorback. The fact that they have not speaks volumes.

Speaks volumes, and explains nothing.

And as to the Manticore box, I have no idea as I do not play IG and therefore never had the desire to purchase one. But please do not attempt to turn my point into a straw man.

So what you're saying is you have no clue what you're talking about?

Gotcha.

What I'm saying is, here is a complete list of the vehicles that I was speaking about:

Rhino
Razorback

...I don't see any IG vehicles there. ...Do you?




EDIT: Also, you're quite snippy about this. I think you should seek out a cookie and hug.