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Plenty of fluff exists that details various miracles and acts of faith that goes beyond the mundane and might even be divine.
But are these effects and events fueled by the warp, as all other gods in the cosmology seem to draw their power here? I had a discussion with a mate about this and he said no. that the angels summoned by the faith of the sisters of battle are not warp entities and that they cant possibly be "good daemons". If not that then where does this energy come from?

Another valid question would be that if these energies actually fuel a warp god named the emperor or even the actual emperor, then how many faiths and practices are actually on the right track? When you look at the various books out there it comes apparent that the imperial faith can easily be distorted to serve darker means, and indeed many cults think they worship the emperor and are in error...

any thoughts on this? speculation is totally fine, but if you can quote material that will help a lot.

It is a simple answer: Sister get all of their "magic" Act's of Faith and Resurrection via the Emperor himself. He is giving them portion of his power to use it in battle. And since Emperor channel all his power trough Warp you can tell that fallen angels are Warp entities. But not all Warp is Chaos.

For more details wait until Lynata and Melissia post.

Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

I dont really believe that the "miracles" have anything to do with the Emperor. Now if I recall correctly there was a book in HH ( I believe it was The Flight of the Eisenstein by Swallow, but I am not 100% sure) where a Remeberence Euphrati Keeler (?) did banish a daemon back to the warp, due to her fervant faith. This might not mean that her faith allowed her to do that, she might have been a latent psyker (though I do not really believe that). In my opinion those "miracles" or acts of faith happen because people do believe that they will happen ( do not confuse this with the Orks ability to think that red goes fasta! religious faith is one thing the Orks...well they are on a different category ). Do not forget that humanity woships(again religious practise)the Chaos Gods or their aspects and as such they get the "fuel" they require.

Again this is my personal opinion.

The God-Emperor and the Emperor of Mankind are not the same entity.
The God-Emperor is a warp entity, fuelled by the prayers and worship of the members of the imperial cult, who is based on the template of the Emperor of Mankind, who united the human race and started the Imperium. Whereas the EoM hated religion and thought it held mankind back, the G-E is fuelled by religion. if they met they probably wouldn't get on at all This is why SM's dont get the special treatment that the Sisters of Battle do, they believe in two very different Emperor's.

on the subject of good Deamons, Deamons are just a physical manifestation of a warp entity's power, so yes good Deamons are possible, for example, the Eldar Avatar.

Yeah, in the absence of a better explanation, it's always been my assumption that the Sisters of Battle are in fact unknowingly practising sorcery, and that living saints are daemons serving the Emperor.

As to why the Space Marines don't get Faith powers (ignoring the actual explanation that Faith is there to give the Sisters of Battle something distinct in rules terms) my explanation would be that, even if they nominally worship the Emperor, the Astartes are still conditioned to the old Imperial virtues of self-reliance and belief in a rational cosmos.

Moreover, Space Marines don't need to pray for divine intervention, they are divine intervention.

IMO, the God-Emperor and the Emperor are one and the same, just that Sisters and that Keeler, believing in His divinity, can actually call on His power without Him realizing it. After all, the Emperor is a gestalt reincarnation of tens of thousands of shamans, just like Slaanesh is just a collection decadent and non-decadent Eldar souls. Faith just draws on the Emperor's 'warp shadow' or His presence in the warp. Astartes can't do that since they follow the Imperial Truth, and so can't really invoke the Emperor's power.

Tadashi wrote:IMO, the God-Emperor and the Emperor are one and the same, just that Sisters and that Keeler, believing in His divinity, can actually call on His power without Him realizing it. After all, the Emperor is a gestalt reincarnation of tens of thousands of shamans, just like Slaanesh is just a collection decadent and non-decadent Eldar souls. Faith just draws on the Emperor's 'warp shadow' or His presence in the warp. Astartes can't do that since they follow the Imperial Truth, and so can't really invoke the Emperor's power.

a physical being cant be a warp entity. you cant call on the powers of a psyker, no matter how powerfull. whereas slannesh is a warp entity fuelled by decadence, not made of souls, the emperor is a physical being who's soul is a soul collective.

Exactly my point. The Emperor chose to limit Himself by encasing Himself in a mortal form, in effect not becoming a god, but His nature is still a god. I refer to this as a warp shadow, His imprint on the warp that believers can call on and strengthening Him in the process.

he's definitely NOT a god. a powerful psyker yes, but his nture is not of the warp like , for example, a deamon. he is flesh and bone.
the warp shadow rings true, but it would be a VERY different thing from the actual emperor, and as I have said, they would probably hate each other

Not if the God-Emperor is the one who sits on the Throne, with His spirits of hope and compassion cast out the moment He destroyed Horus. The Emperor is a god, just that He chose not to be one when He decided to limit Himself to a mortal form. Probably one reason the Powers hate Him; He broke the rules and directly ruled Mankind.

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

It could be that his legacy is their reward. When they are changed into space marines, they are given the genetic power of the emperor. The SoB don't have this genetic gift, so he give them a portion of his "divine' power instead. Though this is speculation.

If belief translates into the warp, then the Emperor's soul is empowered by humanity's belief in him.

If people believe that power can be made manifest in the material world, it can be.

IMO an act of faith or the empowerment of a living saint is no different from when Chaos summons dark energies or empowers a Daemon Prince. It's just 'empy energy'

It's a matter of personal interpretation and preferences, and GW purposefully left a lot of details open for just that. Personally, I dislike the idea of "divine magic" as I like to see everything having some sort of explanation behind it. For 40k, this usually means that something is powered by the Warp, but since Sisters cannot be psykers themselves it would either have to be the Emperor working through them (an idea propagated by the Ecclesiarchy, though of course without the notion of it being a psychic power) or that the abilities of the Sisters are quite simply an effect of their own personal determination and sheer refusal to "back down", their zeal and fanaticism driving them on where others would give up. I like that the Acts of Faith from their last proper Codex were so vague that you could indeed say they were a divine power or just good fortune and skill based entirely on your own preferences, and this is how I want to continue to roll.

Of course, the few Living Saints are an entirely different topic, as they are clearly a supernatural phenomenon. Here, it is my theory that we have a benign warp-spawned entity created by the collective faith and despair of the Emperor's people during some sort of crisis possessing one of the faithful and using this body to enact righteous vengeance. Like an Anti-Slaanesh, a product of the emotions of the human race mixed with their dedication to the Imperial Creed. And since the Sisters of Battle are usually to be found in the focal point of this conflict, it makes sense that it is one of them that would serve as the host, fighting on until the body is "burnt up" by the intense energies radiated of this avenging angel, at which point it will disappear again. The one thing I am not yet entirely decided about would be whether it is always the same entity or it is "born anew" each time it is "summoned" by the emotions set free by the masses of the faithful. The former could explain why the "birth" of a Living Saint only occurs every couple centuries, whilst the latter is better suited to address a single Living Saint popping up again and again, possibly having a smaller "crisis threshold" for the purpose of re-appearing than the original creation...

My two bolt shells on the subject, anyways.

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god. It would be like Khorne offering his powers to someone for planting flowers just because they had utterly convinced themselves that Khorne was the God of Botany. So the Acts of Faith are almost certainly the hidden manipulations of one of the Chaos powers (probably Tzeentch because he's just that kind of jerk), and the Sisters are ultimately even worse heretics than they already are.

It's really why the 2nd Edition rules made so much more sense for the Sisters. They had the Sacred Rites, which represented a Canoness or Sister Superior whipping the sisters up with some kind of fiery speech or invocation. The Sacred Rites reflected the idea that the Sisters were utterly devoted religious fanatics, which is what they are supposed to be.

I'm with Lynata here.

85% propaganda - Millions of such 'miracles' happen throughout the Imperium on a daily basis. A warpship arriving early on schedule, an unnaturally bountiful harvest, a reactor explosion being contained in the last minute and even seemingly unlikely victories obtained due enemy error are without a doubt atributed to the Emperor. We're dealing with a highly superstitious totalitarian state here.

10% unknown psychic phenomena - Living saints, SoB acts of faith, ordinary guardsman banishing a daemon through sheer faith and force of will, prophetic visions...

5% the Emperor himself - Hard to single out from the other two, but still likely, as the Emperor HAS a presence in the warp.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

That's a good point, actually.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:So the Acts of Faith are almost certainly the hidden manipulations of one of the Chaos powers (probably Tzeentch because he's just that kind of jerk), and the Sisters are ultimately even worse heretics than they already are.

Or the Acts of Faith are quite simply a way of zeal and conviction enabling the Sisters to do things that make others pause and wonder. We have this "mind over matter" kind of stuff happening in our real world, too - from karate kids using their bare hands to chop through layers of solid bricks to people completely shutting themselves off from feeling pain to the extreme mental focus of a sniper aiming for the perfect shot. All of this can be evoked and strengthened by the Sisters' faith, which acts as a catalyst for the human mind as it eases the dismissal of "distracting" ideas of ego, honour, doubt, etc and replaces them with perfect calm, allowing the individual to concentrate entirely on a singular task. "Do not think, act."

The "Chaos did it" theory doesn't work for the same reason you already voiced for the Emperor's relationship to the Space Marines. Why would Tzeentch (or any other Chaos god) empower an enemy force that frequently gets in his way whilst simultaneously withholding these bonuses from his own followers? And no, I don't believe the "it's all according to plan lol" joker will suffice here.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

Part of the reason it makes no sense, of course, is that the Sisters' Faith rules were written several years before Horus Rising established the Emperor as a rational empiricist determined to wash away religion and superstition with scientific truth.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

English Assassin wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

Part of the reason it makes no sense, of course, is that the Sisters' Faith rules were written several years before Horus Rising established the Emperor as a rational empiricist determined to wash away religion and superstition with scientific truth.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

The Word Bearers being chastised for worshiping the Emperor as a god dates back to at least White Dwarf 270, which was July 2002. Probably earlier, but that's the first time I can positively attribute it as I don't have a handy copy of the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos to see if it was in there too. The Acts of Faith in Codex Witch Hunters didn't come out until 2003.

Tadashi wrote:Not if the God-Emperor is the one who sits on the Throne, with His spirits of hope and compassion cast out the moment He destroyed Horus. The Emperor is a god, just that He chose not to be one when He decided to limit Himself to a mortal form. Probably one reason the Powers hate Him; He broke the rules and directly ruled Mankind.

the powers hate him cuz the EoM told his followers not to follow religious beliefs; that and the fact the GE is now stealing followers from them.
gods arent sentient beings in the way we are, more collections of emotions and beliefs to make up one gestalt consciousness. its very unlikely he could choose to do anything.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

This seems like the most likely explanation. The Emperor was once a man who tried to get humanity to stop following religion, but now, in a time where religion is the only thing holding the Imperium together in his stead, he may have realized that until humanity is once again safe he will have to play the role of their patron god. Dosent mean he has to like it, he is first and foremost humanities greatest protector after all. If the Imperium didnt have The Imperial Creed, what's really holding it together?

Not to mention that the Emperor seems like the kind of guy who would use any method at his disposal to mess up his enemies, like giving his chosen daughters a little 'boost' every now and then.

Sanctus-Malas wrote:

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

This seems like the most likely explanation. The Emperor was once a man who tried to get humanity to stop following religion, but now, in a time where religion is the only thing holding the Imperium together in his stead, he may have realized that until humanity is once again safe he will have to play the role of their patron god. Dosent mean he has to like it, he is first and foremost humanities greatest protector after all. If the Imperium didnt have The Imperial Creed, what's really holding it together?

Not to mention that the Emperor seems like the kind of guy who would use any method at his disposal to mess up his enemies, like giving his chosen daughters a little 'boost' every now and then.

not sure i agree with your theory that religion is all that's holding the Imperium together. the ecclesiarchy hinders man by limiting its contacts with other races and its study into the warp. doing a tau (colonisation) or an eldar ( warp-awesomeness) would probably strengthen the empire a good deal more than religion.

Religion is not what holds the Imperium together, it is fear and force of arms, lol. Besides, offering divine intervention to a tiny, select force like the Sisters really makes no difference in how the common Imperial citizen would view the Cult of the Emperor or the legitimacy of his divinity. If he was trying to do that, he'd be better off serving up miracles to the Imperial Guard. The average Imperial citizen, or even PDF or Guardsman is only slightly more likely to see a Battle Sister in his lifetime (let alone in combat where she'd be calling forth miracles) than a Space Marine.

No, there's really just no logical explanation for the Acts of Faith because they are wholly incongruous to the setting.

Don't underestimate the power of faith as a source for morale. Man's soul yearns for something greater to believe in, and religion is the most efficient catalyst as it allows for hope beyond the reasonable, in turn breeding devotion beyond the reasonable. And this is not something exclusive to the Adepta Sororitas - they are merely the most devout and exemplary followers of the Imperial Cult, in turn evoking a stronger reaction from the people. Any Confessor worth half his salt is quite able to stir up the populace in a similar manner, orally whipping them into a frenzy before unleashing the newly armed masses of the faithful upon enemies of the faith.

"Their sheer faith in the divine Emperor has been decisive in several engagements. Battered and dispirited Guardsmen have been given new heart as the Sisters refuse to give ground under ferocious Orks assaults and within the Hives, the impassioned words of resistance spoken by the Sisterhood has steadied the resolve of entire populations."
- faction intro for the Order of the Argent Shroud, GW's official Armageddon 3 campaign website

"Their unshakeable determination spreads to any force they fight alongside and there have been many Imperial Guard officers who, inspired by the Sisters' presence, have also united behind the Order's vow."
- faction intro for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, GW's official Armageddon 3 campaign website

Yes, faith isn't necessary to hold the Imperium together. But neither are fear and force of arms, when you look at it that way, or do you see the USA standing on the verge of splintering because the Army isn't occupying the streets? The Imperium could be an atheistic nation, yes. Just as much as it could also be a democracy of mutual voluntary cooperation. Faith and fear simply happen to be the most effective means to control a population. Various religious organizations understand this too well, as do non-religious despotic regimes.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:No, there's really just no logical explanation for the Acts of Faith because they are wholly incongruous to the setting.

That depends entirely on whether you choose to view these "miracles" as some sort of whacky divine magic - or quite simply as a combination of good fortune and a determination that enables them to perform feats regarded as miraculous. We've had this sort of stuff on our real world, too. A lot of religions are based on what I assume was nothing more but dumb luck, coincidence, exceptional talent and/or perseverance. And the people of the Imperium of Man are easily as gullible as mankind in ancient times or the middle ages.

They use belief to become more accurate shooters, cause ammunition to do more damage, or gain invulnerable saves?

Like I said, the Sacred Rites worked that way. Made them immune to fear, caused them to frenzy or gain hatred, immunity to morale tests, etc. Even the one that allowed them to fire a second time could at least be explained as them ignoring danger to concentrate their firepower. And it was the most difficult result to achieve.

Faith as a psychological effect is plausible. Divine intervention in a setting lacking a divine entity to provide it is not.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They use belief to become more accurate shooters, cause ammunition to do more damage, or gain invulnerable saves?

Yup. Some Acts of Faith are undoubtedly more dodgy than others, but they remain explainable. Ammunition does not simply "do more damage" - it is described as finding a chink in the armour and can be explained by mental focus or plain ole' luck. Just like the invulnerable save is a mind-over-matter approach to ignore the intense pain of a wound which would otherwise strike you down, unable to fight on - and may very well have you succumb to your injuries after the battle is concluded. In fact, this is really no different from FNP, is it?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Faith as a psychological effect is plausible. Divine intervention in a setting lacking a divine entity to provide it is not.

There we are in agreement.

And yeah, I also liked the Sacred Rites. Not just because of their slightly more down-to-earth effects but also because the sheer concept of pre-battle rituals as well as how they were pulled off fluffwise (I vaguely remember something about smearing ash on their faces, though I'd have to re-read that part) was kinda cool.

Mixing with the Eldar or the Tau would be disastrous for the Imperium. Simply seizing their technology will suffice.

The Eldar, after all, had their chance, and they threw it away. They are a dying race with no hope in the cosmos of ever regaining their place.

The Tau philosophy of the "Greater Good" works really well when you don't have to contend with things like Tyranid, Orks, sluagth, Yuvath, Enslavers, and a myriad other threats in the galaxy. If the Tau Empire faced the threats the Imperium does, on the scale the Imperium does, you can bet your last powercell that the Earth Caste would find themselves slaving away in Forge World-like conditions "for the Greater Good" and the Fire Caste would be thrown into meatgrinder after meatgrinder, just like the IG. Their survival as a race would depend on it.

How do the powers of faith work? Well, considering that there is an energy source in the 40K universe that deals specifically with this sort of thing, called the Warp, I would posit that the fervent belief of uncountable trillions of humans over the last 10,000 years has shaped, or been shaped by, the Warp-signature of the Emperor's psychic might. After all, we're talking about a guy who is the reincarnation of ancient Earth's various wizards, wise men, shamans, magi, psychics and other "magic wielders". He's fully aware of the power of faith, and its ability to shape reality through the medium of the Warp. For those who's faith is strong enough, they can draw from this well to bring about miraculous effects. Unlike daemons or the psyker, however, they require no special gift or genetic trick, nor do they require being a thing alien to our reality. They're just humans, with a firm and profound belief in something greater than themselves.

Does what they do defy rational explanation? Of course it does, that's why it's called faith!

orkoidSTD wrote:he's definitely NOT a god. a powerful psyker yes, but his nture is not of the warp like , for example, a deamon. he is flesh and bone.
the warp shadow rings true, but it would be a VERY different thing from the actual emperor, and as I have said, they would probably hate each other

Uh... the Emperor is very much a God. Always has been. Always will be. This is stated in the canon of Warhammer 40,000 outside of the point of view of those living in the fluff.

"Only when humanity is free from the shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question will we see it's true brilliance."
- The Emperor of Mankind, The Last Church on Terra

The Emperor is a god, but refused to be worshiped as one, since over the millennia He watched over Mankind, He saw the damage done by religion to it despite it's benefits, and because He wanted to be different from the Chaos Powers.

Tadashi wrote:"Only when humanity is free from the shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question will we see it's true brilliance."
- The Emperor of Mankind, The Last Church on Terra

The Emperor is a god, but refused to be worshiped as one, since over the millennia He watched over Mankind, He saw the damage done by religion to it despite it's benefits, and because He wanted to be different from the Chaos Powers.

the EoM was LIKE a god, but if you read the HH books he cleary tells almost everyone HE IS A MAN. a great man, but a man none the less. your idea that he somehow CHOOSES to be a god dont work when you look at how the other gods work. theyre are simply manifestations of a races phsycic resonance in the warp. thats why the orks have the most powerfull gods.

Psienesis wrote:Mixing with the Eldar or the Tau would be disastrous for the Imperium. Simply seizing their technology will suffice.

The Eldar, after all, had their chance, and they threw it away. They are a dying race with no hope in the cosmos of ever regaining their place.

The Tau philosophy of the "Greater Good" works really well when you don't have to contend with things like Tyranid, Orks, sluagth, Yuvath, Enslavers, and a myriad other threats in the galaxy. If the Tau Empire faced the threats the Imperium does, on the scale the Imperium does, you can bet your last powercell that the Earth Caste would find themselves slaving away in Forge World-like conditions "for the Greater Good" and the Fire Caste would be thrown into meatgrinder after meatgrinder, just like the IG. Their survival as a race would depend on it.

How do the powers of faith work? Well, considering that there is an energy source in the 40K universe that deals specifically with this sort of thing, called the Warp, I would posit that the fervent belief of uncountable trillions of humans over the last 10,000 years has shaped, or been shaped by, the Warp-signature of the Emperor's psychic might. After all, we're talking about a guy who is the reincarnation of ancient Earth's various wizards, wise men, shamans, magi, psychics and other "magic wielders". He's fully aware of the power of faith, and its ability to shape reality through the medium of the Warp. For those who's faith is strong enough, they can draw from this well to bring about miraculous effects. Unlike daemons or the psyker, however, they require no special gift or genetic trick, nor do they require being a thing alien to our reality. They're just humans, with a firm and profound belief in something greater than themselves.

Does what they do defy rational explanation? Of course it does, that's why it's called faith!

i agree with your stance on faith. however when i was talking about eldar n tau i was not talking about joining them, simply incorporating technology and policies into the imperium.
but im not sure what you say about the eldar or the tau is true. i mean, yes the eldar are a dying race, but theyve been like that for at least TWENTY MILLENIA. theyre tenacious and its not too impossible to see them setting up on a couple of worlds and staging a comeback.

and the tau ARE fighting orks, tyranids, a whole host of lesser alien races AND the imperium of man. they shouldve been wiped out by now. but because they can call on their allies and have a very progressive technological stance, they have survived. who knows what they could do in the future?

IronSnake wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:he's definitely NOT a god. a powerful psyker yes, but his nture is not of the warp like , for example, a deamon. he is flesh and bone.
the warp shadow rings true, but it would be a VERY different thing from the actual emperor, and as I have said, they would probably hate each other

Uh... the Emperor is very much a God. Always has been. Always will be. This is stated in the canon of Warhammer 40,000 outside of the point of view of those living in the fluff.

ermm where? most of the fluff is seen from the point of view of the imperium and its members, or the race of whatever codex your looking at.