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This is not debateable. The Emperor is a God. He chose to tell everyone who fought with him and followed him that he was not because it was part of his plan to remove religious superstition from the equation of humanities existence.

This doesn't mean he was not a God, however. He is the human races' actual God. He didn't become one simply by being worshipped for 10,000 years after his interement in the golden throne.

"The Emperor of Mankind is the sovereign of the Imperium of Man, and Father, Guardian, and God of his race."

IronSnake wrote:This is not debateable. The Emperor is a God. He chose to tell everyone who fought with him and followed him that he was not because it was part of his plan to remove religious superstition from the equation of humanities existence.

This doesn't mean he was not a God, however. He is the human races' actual God. He didn't become one simply by being worshipped for 10,000 years after his interement in the golden throne.

"The Emperor of Mankind is the sovereign of the Imperium of Man, and Father, Guardian, and God of his race."

He is ( or better was before he became a vegetable ) a powerful psyker, no more a god than other alpha/ alpha+ psykers.
All the so called miracles are either misinterpreted or bad pranks by Tzeentch who just loves to mess with the carriongod's slaves.

I don't feel like getting in to this right now, but I would like to reiterate something:

Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith are not psychic powers.

They were specifically stated not to be in second edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in third edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in that fifth edition non-codex.

They were specifically stated not to be in the FFG roleplaying games.

They were specifically stated not to be the lore, as the inquisition investigates miracles for evidence of psychic powers..


So any theory that presumes that the miracles performed by Sisters of Battle is psychic (even such subtle effects as the gestalt psychic field of the Orks, for example) is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:All the so called miracles are either misinterpreted or bad pranks by Tzeentch who just loves to mess with the carriongod's slaves.

Tzeentchian "pranks" are psychic/warp based in nature, therefor miracles are not such.

Melissia wrote:I don't feel like getting in to this right now, but I would like to reiterate something:

Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith are not psychic powers.

They were specifically stated not to be in second edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in third edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in that fifth edition non-codex.

They were specifically stated not to be in the FFG roleplaying games.

They were specifically stated not to be the lore, as the inquisition investigates miracles for evidence of psychic powers..


So any theory that presumes that the miracles performed by Sisters of Battle is psychic (even such subtle effects as the gestalt psychic field of the Orks, for example) is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:All the so called miracles are either misinterpreted or bad pranks by Tzeentch who just loves to mess with the carriongod's slaves.

Tzeentchian "pranks" are psychic/warp based in nature, therefor miracles are not such.

Then the good sisters should ask the Necrons for clarification because all the known gods in 40k manifest their "miracles" as psychic/ warp based effects.
Since even the hypothetical carriongod is, at best, a warp entity one has to wonder where the sisters get their miracles from?

The Emperor is the most common belief. But an alternative is that they sort of create their own miracles, through their own martial prowess (it is described as training that combines martial arts and prayer that allows them to perform feats that appear as miracles to the uninitiated).

40k does not follow the same laws of physics IRL does, remember. The average human is oddly enough tougher in 40k than IRL, despite the reputation Guard has of dying in droves.

I remember reading where an Imperial pysker or something all of sudden had his eyes burn with fire and he defeated an entire army by himself and saved a planet from chaos. All because he believed in the emperor for all we know the guy could of been an Alpha Level Pysker.

Melissia wrote:The Emperor is the most common belief. But an alternative is that they sort of create their own miracles, through their own martial prowess (it is described as training that combines martial arts and prayer that allows them to perform feats that appear as miracles to the uninitiated).

40k does not follow the same laws of physics IRL does, remember. The average human is oddly enough tougher in 40k than IRL, despite the reputation Guard has of dying in droves.

Well, the Emperor is imo unlikely since, if we assume the Emperor is a god ( which he isn't, he is dead, mwhahahha, dead and rotting! Death to his lickspittle servants! Glory for Abaddon! Glory for the Warmaster! ), he would have to work his miracles in the same way that the other warpgods do.
Since, as you said, there is no warptaint noticable when it comes to miracles performed by the sisters, i think that the martial prowess explaination ( perhaps paired with the utterly inhuman determination that is only found in the true fanatic? ) is perhaps the best one.

To be precise, the quote is:

the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled.

From C:WH.

KingDeath wrote:
Since, as you said, there is no warptaint noticable when it comes to miracles performed by the sisters, i think that the martial prowess explaination ( perhaps paired with the utterly inhuman determination that is only found in the true fanatic? ) is perhaps the best one.

Actually the only explanation that makes sense is that the guys at GW don't actually care if it makes sense or not, because is no reasonable explanation for the Acts of Faith. They cannot "create their own miracles" and the codex in White Dwarf very specifically uses language that states the Emperor offers divine assistance even though it makes absolutely no sense why he would. I offer up again the fact that the Emperor, a being that refused divinity so strongly that he chastised his own son and ordered another one to raze an entire world that had been raised in his worship, would not then proceed to offer divine intervention (warp based or not) to assist people just because they believed in them hard enough. Again, that's like Khorne offering his powers to someone who planted flowers just because that person had utterly convinced themselves that Khorne was actually the Chaos God of Botany.



Flowers for the Flower God! Seeds for the Chia Throne!

Yeah, the Acts of Faith are utter nonsense. But they are what they are until they are hopefully retconned out. This is a universe where Orks can create gubbins to break any and all laws of physics or logic.

First off, the Emperor is effectively a god. He was extremely anti-religous because he knew of the dangers that religion would entail. One of the reasons why the word bearers primach went to chaos was because the emperor knew damn well that gods existed but specifically lied to everyone and said they didn't. After the heresy the Emperors internment in the golden throne and the creation of the eclesiachy based on the religion that the word bearers primach created is in a way the ultimate tragic tale.

In order to save humanity the emperor had to abandon everything he had worked towards. He had to become that which he hated simply to save humanity.

Now we all know that the emperor has an exceptionally strong and powerful essence in the warp. Hence why he keeps the forces of chaos in the imaterium, and helps power the astonomicon. similarly I would believe that essence receives power in part from the worship he receives.

when acts of faith come into the situation things become a little tricky. They are clearly not psychic in origin because sister of battle are specifically anti-psychers. There was a rule that even stated that they cannot be affected by the warp neither harmful or beneficial powers. They are not blanks, but their faith acts like a psychic shield. In a universe where Orks can bend reality to follow what they believe regardless of the actual technical possibility, and this power is also not quite a power of the warp but of something similar.

I can see the acts of faith being similar in origin to the ork powers of the waaagh. Their sheer devotion and zeal creates a waagh like field for them to draw on. Additionally this may even be partially siphoned power from the emperor himself, their devotion and faith acting like a bridge directly to his powers and essence as a protector of humanity.

Other option, its blind luck, perceived as a miracle.However given the universe has living saints and the sanguinor, it being a locally created semi-psychic field. Not quite warp powers but something similar. Think of it like a mental unity and devotion that acts like the tyranid shadow of the warp.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:I can see the acts of faith being similar in origin to the ork powers of the waaagh.

Isn't the Waaagh field psychic as well? So that wouldn't really work either
I vaguely recall the Ephrael Stern mini (back when she still had her own SC rules) not being able to use AoF due to her psychic "taint" from being Daemonifuge.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Other option, its blind luck, perceived as a miracle.

That's how I see it working best, as anything else wouldn't make sense and there is nothing proving that this is impossible - so for me this is quite simply the explanation that seems most likely. They are only "utter nonsense" if one really wants to see them as such. As would be the case for many other things in the setting.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:However given the universe has living saints and the sanguinor, it being a locally created semi-psychic field.

I have to say, with the Living Saint I actually do believe it's psychic, too - if only because the Living Saint clearly isn't a normal human being, so normal rules do not apply. I don't know enough about the fluff surrounding Sanguinor, but given that he has the Emperor's DNA and the Emperor was/is a big psyker, too, I can see the potential.

First off, I'd like to weigh in on the Emperor's nature. He is absolutely a god in the sense of gods in this setting. His presence in the warp is vast and powerful enough to rival the chaos gods. That's really all it takes to be a god, there's nothing special about it. Just galaxy-spanning levels of psychic power. This ability is at least partly due to the thousands of souls fed into the Golden Throne every day, but nevertheless, the Emperor casts the astronomican to the far corners of the Imperium and provides a safe "carrier signal" for the soul-bound astropaths to communicate on. Plus due to the nature of the warp, prayers to him undoubtedly strengthen his presence. Unwillingly or not, he fits the description of a god in the 40k setting in every way.

Second, about the Sisters of Battle. I can see the argument that their Acts of Faith are just that, superhuman feats inspired by sheer faith and concentration and dogmatic training. However, I think this is a pretty interesting interpretation:

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:They are not blanks, but their faith acts like a psychic shield... Not quite warp powers but something similar.

So the Acts of Faith have been investigated, and no warp sign was discovered. But if the Sisters are so dogmatically anti-psyker that they create a region of semi-null-space around themselves, couldn't their Act of Faith be in plain sight, inside a bubble where psychic powers or warp-sight would fail to penetrate? Their fervent belief in the Emperor's divine guidance could subtly bend reality around them without the Emperor's intervention, just like the ork's gestalt psychic abilities, while their mental defenses against the witch and the daemon could effectively shield them from scrutiny. Just a thought.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

Part of the reason it makes no sense, of course, is that the Sisters' Faith rules were written several years before Horus Rising established the Emperor as a rational empiricist determined to wash away religion and superstition with scientific truth.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

The Word Bearers being chastised for worshiping the Emperor as a god dates back to at least White Dwarf 270, which was July 2002. Probably earlier, but that's the first time I can positively attribute it as I don't have a handy copy of the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos to see if it was in there too. The Acts of Faith in Codex Witch Hunters didn't come out until 2003.

The White Dwarf article actually only states that the Emperor chastised Lorgar for wasting time worshipping him rather than getting on with the Great Crusade, not for worshipping him per se. The Emperor's character as a secular humanist was quite definitely not established before 2006's Horus Rising.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:So the Acts of Faith have been investigated, and no warp sign was discovered. But if the Sisters are so dogmatically anti-psyker that they create a region of semi-null-space around themselves, couldn't their Act of Faith be in plain sight, inside a bubble where psychic powers or warp-sight would fail to penetrate? Their fervent belief in the Emperor's divine guidance could subtly bend reality around them without the Emperor's intervention, just like the ork's gestalt psychic abilities, while their mental defenses against the witch and the daemon could effectively shield them from scrutiny. Just a thought.

Well, it's less that the Acts of Faith were investigated, it's more that the Sisters themselves are not psykers and as such shouldn't possess these abilities. They don't just call upon them at their own leisure like some mage casting a spell - it's literally an unreliable bonus that may or may not occur when they are under pressure and left to hold on to their faith as if it'd be the only thing keeping them alive (which, in battle, often is the case considering what kind of enemies they may fight, come to think of it). But there cannot really be a "lab study" into this, is what I'm trying to say.

Anyhow - the "bubble" idea is an interesting interpretation. It also reminds me of another theory I thought about: The Emperor might simply be too strong in his psychic potential to have his powers blocked this way (the Shield of Faith only gave a small chance to resist major psychic abilities, working reliably only against weak stuff). Or the Sisters' faith allows him to override their subconscious defenses. Not my preferred interpretation, but one that would be equally viable as per the available studio fluff.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:First off, I'd like to weigh in on the Emperor's nature. He is absolutely a god in the sense of gods in this setting. His presence in the warp is vast and powerful enough to rival the chaos gods. That's really all it takes to be a god, there's nothing special about it. Just galaxy-spanning levels of psychic power. This ability is at least partly due to the thousands of souls fed into the Golden Throne every day, but nevertheless, the Emperor casts the astronomican to the far corners of the Imperium and provides a safe "carrier signal" for the soul-bound astropaths to communicate on. Plus due to the nature of the warp, prayers to him undoubtedly strengthen his presence. Unwillingly or not, he fits the description of a god in the 40k setting in every way.

i'd agree with this, however we where arguing whether he ha started off as a god, or that the prayer and belief of millions had turned him into a god. IMO the Man emperor couldnt have been a god because the other gods are meotions incarnate. the emperor had altering moods like anyother man so could not have been a god. unless ive got that completely wrong
also i was pretty sure having a warp presence (psykers, orks ect.) was not the same as being a warp entity (deamons, gods)

Been trying to get my head around this for a long, long time myself (with usual contradictory info over the years to muddy the waters further, nicely).

I don't think that SoB are really anti-psyker, but pro-'normal'-Sacred-human, otherwise they would hold Untouchables to be beloved and perfect beings... I suspect that they would despise the 'wrongness' of Untouchables just the same as anyone else (and probably moreso if they perceived that as some sort of deviation; 'Feels wrong - purge it!').

Lynata: I tend to agree pretty much 100% with your posts and take on the 40k-verse but not sure about your AoF model. It might work if you modify it to allow for a sort of mutually-re-inforcing group-think and group-belonging; which would explain why Untouchables, those with a certain amount of 'Corruption Points', and (some...) outcast Sisters can't perform these AoF (depending upon what weight you ascribe to different sources), however Pure and Pious they may be.

I'm leaning towards something like your model being the psychological underpinnings of what's going on (the fertile ground that makes it possible) but they really are channeling some kind of 'supernatural' power too (some of the things they do are genuinely impossible otherwise, plus the Living Saints).

Maybe the simplest, most elegant solution is that whatever psychic power the Emperor puts out is modulated in some way so that it is untainted by any warp-gribbliness; and pretty much only the Sisters are tuned correctly to be able to channel this power (think of different receivers picking up different radio and TV signals, or harmonic tunneling of power due to being on exactly the correct frequency).

This built upon the idea that lots of folks share that whatever the Emperor might have pretended to want and stand for in his Plan A, this was all undone by them pesky Space Marines so everything since is his hastily-cobbled-together Plan B (including worship of Him): It's redundant to talk about what he wanted since the entire universe changed with the HH and everything since is simple, pragmatic survival (hopefully) within the laws of the new universe.

Might break down as (by overall number of these 'miracles') something like:-

80% Luck, no-minded perfection of action etc;
15% Tapping into their own souls to power miracles (their souls of roughly the same 'clean' frequency as His meta-soul, so similar effects);
5% Channeling the Big-E's meta-soul pawaa.

Dunno....

He started existence as a normal child, but quickly found that he was not. As he grew so did his abilities as a psyker. He learned of the dangers facing mankind and finally during the Unifcation Wars 'came out in the open' to save humanity from themselves and the predations of chaos and xenos.

No mere 'man' lives to be roughly 36,000 to 38,000 years old before 'dying'. Only to live on for another 10,000+ years pyschically.

Aye, he's a god for sure. But he also has a definite distinctness in his qualities of godhood in the setting: Which (for my money) is how he can power AoF without there being any attendant 'stink of the warp' to these AoF. He found a way to be his own god with his own rules of godhood, clever (in some ways) and individualistic chap that he is.

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The conclusion is pretty clear. Even if you don't want to draw to it.

tsz52 wrote:I don't think that SoB are really anti-psyker, but pro-'normal'-Sacred-human [...]

Yeah, that's definitively true - any kind of mutation is wrong to them, which is why they (and other members of the Ministorum) are even somewhat sceptical of Space Marines. That said, I would still say that psykers occupy a special hatred for them, simply because they are way more dangerous than your standard mutant, and a window to the cursed warp.

tsz52 wrote:It might work if you modify it to allow for a sort of mutually-re-inforcing group-think and group-belonging; which would explain why Untouchables, those with a certain amount of 'Corruption Points', and (some...) outcast Sisters can't perform these AoF (depending upon what weight you ascribe to different sources), however Pure and Pious they may be.

Mutually reinforcing group-thinking and a sense of belonging are definitively important factors, which is why I believe the monastic and isolationist lifestyle of the Sisters as well as the extreme sense of familiarity and loyalty play an important part in this. That said, I wouldn't even say that the Sisters alone are the only ones who can perform something that is regarded as a miracle ... there were a lot of Saints in Imperial history, people like Sebastian Thor or Confessor Dolan who definitively deserve some mention. It's just that the Sisters are the only group where these "miracles" show up with a certain regularity.

This way, it's also still entirely open what the actual source for these miracles is. I think it's actually pretty nice that the fluff allows for so many different interpretations. Makes it seem like the "miracles" attributed to people in real life.

Lynata wrote:I have to say, with the Living Saint I actually do believe it's psychic, too - if only because the Living Saint clearly isn't a normal human being, so normal rules do not apply..

They are also specifically not-psychic.

On the Living Saint, remember that there are things about 40k which aren't explained and left mysterious, either out of laziness or because it is intended to be unexplained (they might have the explanation but never see fit to push it forth).

IronSnake wrote:He started existence as a normal child, but quickly found that he was not. As he grew so did his abilities as a psyker. He learned of the dangers facing mankind and finally during the Unifcation Wars 'came out in the open' to save humanity from themselves and the predations of chaos and xenos.

No mere 'man' lives to be roughly 36,000 to 38,000 years old before 'dying'. Only to live on for another 10,000+ years pyschically.

but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

c'tan are star gods, ie; gods of the physical realm. im talking about WARP gods. the fact that gork and mork are reflections of the ork phsyche is mentioned in the codex. i cant comment on the eldar gods but it would stand to reason they arose the same way.

Correct. As others have also stated, that is how the Chaos Gods work.

Therefore, why do you think the Chaos Gods hate the Emperor so damn much? It's because he is his own God in his own way and is VASTLY powerfuly and does not NEED them. This makes the Chaos powers fearful and angry of him. Hence subterfuge rather than a direct assault worked well in the form of spiriting away his Primarchs and then ultimately taking control of Horus and taking the fight to him through the use of his own 'children'.

IronSnake wrote:Correct. As others have also stated, that is how the Chaos Gods work.

Therefore, why do you think the Chaos Gods hate the Emperor so damn much? It's because he is his own God in his own way and is VASTLY powerfuly and does not NEED them. This makes the Chaos powers fearful and angry of him. Hence subterfuge rather than a direct assault worked well in the form of spiriting away his Primarchs and then ultimately taking control of Horus and taking the fight to him through the use of his own 'children'.

there are a heck more reasons why the chaos gods hate the emperor. for one thing he stopped every human worshipping gods which, in one way or another, are all aspects of chaos. for another he allowed man to enter there realm forcefully and without their consent. if the government decided to build a freeway in the middle of your house how would you feel?

Melissia wrote:They are also specifically not-psychic.

Their hosts will not have been, but after "ascension" ...
It really isn't that specific. They are tested by the Inquisition, yes, but how these tests look is left completely in the open - and when they only look for the psyker gene it's clear that they won't find any trace of it, even though the body has long since become nothing more than a "hull" in possession of a benign warp spirit.

And I think I prefer this interpretation. I just like things to make sense, and as I firmly object the possibility of divine magic in 40k I see no other option.
Well, there is one other way, but even if it's direct influence of the Emperor Himself it'd still be a psychic phenomena.

That said, if it really is the Big E who pulls the strings of a Living Saint, this might be even more reasonable, as he could pull his powers away from the Saint at any time, at which point the Inquisition wouldn't find any psychic activity whatsoever, regardless of how they test. I only still like this theory a little less because it isn't nearly as grimdark as the "zombie warp angel" stuff.

orkoidSTD wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

c'tan are star gods, ie; gods of the physical realm. im talking about WARP gods. the fact that gork and mork are reflections of the ork phsyche is mentioned in the codex. i cant comment on the eldar gods but it would stand to reason they arose the same way.

Which rather torpedoes your argument for why the Emperor could not be a god (whatever that actually means in the setting). God =/= Chaos God.

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

c'tan are star gods, ie; gods of the physical realm. im talking about WARP gods. the fact that gork and mork are reflections of the ork phsyche is mentioned in the codex. i cant comment on the eldar gods but it would stand to reason they arose the same way.

Which rather torpedoes your argument for why the Emperor could not be a god (whatever that actually means in the setting). God =/= Chaos God.

erm...
what does exactly? the fact i dont know about the eldar gods? because seeing that two other races with the most powerful warp signature work in EXACTLY the same way, its fair to make an assumption that they do too.

I would like to propose an alternative interpretation;

The Emperor is actually Malal, the God of the House Divided, the Evil Which Slays Evil, who has been manipulating mankind for the past ten thousand years to use them as pawns in his eternal war against the other Chaos Gods. To that end he has pretended to be a savior-figure while actually crippling the Imperium and Chaos both by setting up a never-ending war that will end with the annihilation of both sides. The Space Marines were designed specifically to be nigh-unstoppable, fascist zealots with no hesitation to kill anyone they saw as an obstacle; the Horus Heresy was created by him through cleverly playing upon the psychological weaknesses of the Primarchs; all of those 'stupid' things the Emperor did in relation to the Primarchs were deliberate, designed to turn them against the Imperium while simultaneously luring the other Chaos Gods into corrupting them and sparking off the Heresy, which both plunged the Imperium into a never-ending dark age and weakened the Ruinous Powers through the loss of the power they had invested in Horus. Once the Heresy was over, Malal abandoned the dying husk that he had used for so long, and now maintains the Imperium from the Warp because it has proven such an effective weapon. Eventually, of course, he will turn on it just as he turns on everyone and everything.

This being so, acts of faith and the amazing powers occasionally granted to Imperial saints are in reality manifestations of the power of Malal, disguised as 'miracles' so as to keep anyone from realizing what's really going on.