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This is probably heresy I know, considering that disdain of the Administratum helped start the HH, but still, how many people would be happier if we got rid of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy, restored the Imperial Truth, and kicked the Administratum off it's high horse?

GK and SoB players would hate you.

thenoobbomb wrote:GK and SoB players would hate you.

The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have ruined everything, everything, the Emperor worked to build. Intolerance, ignorance, superstition,...believe!...don't think!...don't doubt!...
"Only when humanity is free from the shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question will we see it's true brilliance."
- The Emperor of Mankind

The Imperium as it is is a failure and a shame of the Emperor's ideals!
If we could restore the Imperial Truth, we do could so much more in a century than under ten thousand years under the Imperial Cult. It's very existence is an insult to the Emperor.

The Inquisition is the best part of 40k fluff.

And the worst but for the Ecclesiarchy mockery of the Emperor's ideals of progress and tolerance.

Well getting rid of the Inquisition would make things much worse, however getting rid of the Ecclesiarchy would be an ideal thing. Administratum would require a complete reboot of the IoM which would not necessarily be a bad thing

thenoobbomb wrote:GK and SoB players would hate you.

Though the army could be retconed into the Sisters of Silence.

No Inquisition means rebellions, Daemon incursions and Xeno infestations on a scale never seen before. Also Renegade Guard and Marines. Inquisition, even if it is full of hatred and doubt, is still a vary important part and one of the keys for the surviving of Mankind. So it is needed.

Even of I agree that Imeperial Creed is a failure toward the Emperor's path - it is needed now. Because Imperial Creed is the only thing keeping Mankind together and the only thing driving them forward in this dark times. It is also feeding the Emperor, giving him power for when he dies he became as powerful as any other four Chaos Gods. Ecclesiarchy is vital part of mankind survival and necessarily for strengthening the Emperor for the final battle with Chaos. So it to is needed.

Administratum needed? Are you kidding?
Just imagine any modern country without it's entire Administration, it would be utter chaos. Same as the Imeprium, Administratum is needed to keep the records and share data among the other Imperial branches. So it is needed to.

n0t_u wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:GK and SoB players would hate you.

Though the army could be retconed into the Sisters of Silence.

Agreed...the pre-Heresy Witch Seekers would make better substitutes for the Inquisition.


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Brother Coa wrote:No Inquisition means rebellions, Daemon incursions and Xeno infestations on a scale never seen before. Also Renegade Guard and Marines. Inquisition, even if it is full of hatred and doubt, is still a vary important part and one of the keys for the surviving of Mankind. So it is needed.

Even of I agree that Imeperial Creed is a failure toward the Emperor's path - it is needed now. Because Imperial Creed is the only thing keeping Mankind together and the only thing driving them forward in this dark times. It is also feeding the Emperor, giving him power for when he dies he became as powerful as any other four Chaos Gods. Ecclesiarchy is vital part of mankind survival and necessarily for strengthening the Emperor for the final battle with Chaos. So it to is needed.

Administratum needed? Are you kidding?
Just imagine any modern country without it's entire Administration, it would be utter chaos. Same as the Imeprium, Administratum is needed to keep the records and share data among the other Imperial branches. So it is needed to.

Witch Seekers (Sisters of Silence) and Space Marines are more than capable of handling daemons, chaos worshippers, and xenos. The Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy excel at defense, and technology would be advancing thanks to the Imperial Truth's tolerant stand. As for the Administratum, it shoud be overhauled to be less bureaucratic and more responsive. I might sound like a heretic, but to be honest, the current Administratum is composed of maggots. They know nothing of the sacrifices needed to keep them alive. Guardsmen have earned their place alongside the Astartes by their blood and honor, but Administratum maggots have not. Every dead Guardsman and Astartes is just another statistic for them.

Tadashi wrote:As for the Administratum, it shoud be overhauled to be less bureaucratic and more responsive. I might sound like a heretic, but to be honest, the current Administratum is composed of maggots. They know nothing of the sacrifices needed to keep them alive. Guardsmen have earned their place alongside the Astartes by their blood and honor, but Administratum maggots have not. Every dead Guardsman and Astartes is just another statistic for them.

And yet, without these "maggots", the Imperium would grind to a halt.

I say it was the lack of religion that caused the Heresy.

Imagine what current 40k would be like without the cult of the God Emperor. One singular religion brings unity to the Imperium.

The Emperor was wrong.

Still need the administratum. Paperwork needs paperpushers to work it out. It could be downsized. As for Space Marines filling the role of an Inquisitor. No. Can you imagine a 7 foot tall power armored marine trying to find a cult? That would be hilarious. "HAS ANYONE SEEM SOME CULTISTS!?!?!?" they scream as they vainly seach a city for the chaos cult.

Space Marines are not subtle.

I said overhaul the Administratum, not get rid of it. Look at the OP for the details, not the title. And religion has held the Imperium back for ten thousand years. The Imperium accomplished more in the two hundred years of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years after the Horus Heresy. And the Astartes won't be hunting down Chaos worshipers, Witch Seekers - the Sisters of Silence - will be the ones doing it.

Still the mental image has me laughing. A space marine trying to infiltrate a cult. He sneaks in, knocks out a guard and steals his uniform, and puts it on. Over his power armor.

And actually the adaptus arbites (and planetary police) would hunt chaos cells. Its their current job after all.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Still the mental image has me laughing. A space marine trying to infiltrate a cult. He sneaks in, knocks out a guard and steals his uniform, and puts it on. Over his power armor.

And actually the adaptus arbites (and planetary police) would hunt chaos cells. Its their current job after all.

Yeah, it has me laughing too.
Why don't we make a broadcast and tell the chaos worshipers that we're coming? But in you're right, the Arbites would handle most cases, with the Sisters of Silence handling the exceptional ones, with support to be called in from the PDF or the Imperial Guard if necessary. Astartes will only be needed for major Chaos incursions.

The Inquisition I think would still be needed, because even if the Imperium were to be stabilised to this ideal situation, there would still be Xenos, Heretics and Daemons. The Inquisition was formed to specialise in each of these areas. Why fix what isn't broken? (OK, it is a little bit broken, but hey, nothing is perfect)

The Administratum I agree is too beaurocratic and sluggish, and needs a massive overhaul and streamlining.

The Ecclesiarchy is now one of the central tenets of the Imperium as a whole, and is one of the things that binds the whole of the rest of it together. The entire Imperium follows it's doctrine, if not to the letter, to the spirit. If the Ecclesiarchy and it's belief systems were to just disappear, the whole Imperium would collapse like during the Dark Age of Technology.


Another fun fact about the Inquisition, there are certain factions within it that agree with you completely, and are trying to bring about these changes anyway

Tadashi wrote:[Witch Seekers (Sisters of Silence) and Space Marines are more than capable of handling daemons, chaos worshippers, and xenos.

There are problems to this though. Sisters of Silence are a highly limited resource. The Imperium wouldn't necessarily be able to replenish their numbers fast enough if they took on all these tasks. While they could be effective against minor, daemonic incursions I doubt they would be as good against powerful forces such as the traitor legions and their ilk. They act as anti-psyker swat teams after all, not as elite superhuman soldiers. As for using normal Astartes chapters, they always run the risk of corruption when facing chaos. One of the reasons the Grey Knights were created by the Emperor was so an elite, superhuman force could be entrusted with combating daemons without ever turning traitor.

Tibbsy wrote:Another fun fact about the Inquisition, there are certain factions within it that agree with you completely, and are trying to bring about these changes anyway

Istvaanism, they think the Horus Heresy was a good idea.

The Inquisition plays a vital role in the Imperium combating covert threats. Remember, it was a small chaos cult and a single corrupt space marine, not a grand army of daemons, that shattered the Imperium and ended the Great Crusade.

And the thought of an undercover space marines

Thing about the Inquisition is that most of its work is in preventing daemons being brought through the fabric of reality, to stop genestealer cults from springing up, to lower the chance of xenos incursions. I can't see Space Marines or Witch-Seekers being particularly good at the undercover work that may be required to locate & bring about the end of these cults. Inquisitors can do it because they recruit the agents they need to do those jobs. If you get rid of the Inquisition then you will start to get 'bush fires' across the Imperium as threats start to crop up and all the Space Marines & Witch-Seekers would be able to do is rush from one fire to another and overtime those little 'fires' will expand, more will pop up and suddenly the Imperium is awash with planets under attack from within, let alone external forces. Not saying the Inquisition completely eliminate the dangers that face planets from within, but they certainly reduce it.

Getting rid of the Ecclisarchy, however, would destroy the Imperium. The worship of the God-Emperor unites humanity. It brings them together for a common cause, provides a powerful figurehead for them to look to and worship. It is, as much as religion has been in our history, a tool to unite people against the enemy. Take that away, remove the religious aspect of the Imperium and it will crumble and fall apart - without a cause to unite people, a cause that people at the lowest level can believe in, the Imperium will fragment as planetary governors and those who rule over Imperial worlds realise they can become the supreme ruler of their worlds without having to answer to anyone. Thus they can split away from the Imperium because they have no reason to remain. New Empires would spring up as worlds join together to form their own coalitions which might expand to include more worlds. Can't say that the Space Marines & Witch-Seekers would come and force them to rejoin the Imperium - they'll be too busy rushing around trying to do the job the Inquisition did.
The Imperial Truth could never be re-established. When the Emperor was struck down, worlds began to worship him, unable to think of losing their Emperor they turned him into an idol for worship. Without his active leadership they needed to believe that he was watching over them - it gave comfort and hope, and thus the Imperial Creed and the Ecclesiarchy rose - because humanity needed them, needed something to believe in. People always want, in the direst, most desperate times, to believe that some supernatural force is going to get them out of the mess they're in and protect them. That's the job of the Imperial Creed and it does it quite well.

Over-hauling the Administratum? An impossible job. The Administratum is so big that re-organising it would be an impossible task, one that would make even the God-Emperor weep hot tears of stress if he ever had to do it. The Administratum works, the Imperium works, that's all that matters and they keep chugging along. The Administratum is a massive crutch for the Imperium, but if you kick it out from under the Imperium to re-organise or rework it, the Imperium may collapse.

Tadashi wrote:This is probably heresy I know, considering that disdain of the Administratum helped start the HH, but still, how many people would be happier if we got rid of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy, restored the Imperial Truth, and kicked the Administratum off it's high horse?

That's the point of the 40k universe, is that it's almost comically disfunctional and dystopian and suffocating under the weight of its own incompetence and ridiculousness.

Also, lets not forget that, at the core of it, it was the Space Marines that began and led the Heresy with half their number turning against the Emperor, and since then over 50 chapters (about 1 in every 20 chapters right there, a 5% rate of turning traitor right there) and thousands of other marines as individuals/squads/comapanies have turned to Chaos and yet more gone simply off on their own deal, so if anything should be abolished...

The Grey Knights could be retained without the Ordo Malleus to deal with major daemonic incursions. Xenos can be contained by the Imperial military by themselves, and heretic cells can be combated by the Arbites and the Witch Seekers.

The Ecclesiarchy is a monstrosity. It's little better than the worship of the Chaos Gods. The Astartes and the Mechanicum wouldn't shed a tear over it's destruction. The Emperor is probably silently cursing it's very existence and the stupidity and failure of the High Lords and the Inquisition from the Golden Throne.

And if the Administratum can't be overhauled, then basically the traitors have already won. The Imperium will simply rot away slowly. All the efforts of the Imperial Guard, Astartes, etc. are for nothing.

Failing all else, I'll just wait until the Emperor dies then. The Mechanicus and the Astartes are more than capable of surviving on their own as the Administratum, Inquisition, and the Ecclesiarchy falls apart. Then the Emperor comes back, and we can start anew, and do it right this time.

The Inquisition is a necessary evil...
The Administratum is a necessary system.
Neither the Mechanicus or the Astartes have the reasources to survive on their own for a prolonged period...
Both depend on the Imperium at large for most safety.

Tibbsy wrote:
Another fun fact about the Inquisition, there are certain factions within it that agree with you completely, and are trying to bring about these changes anyway

Specifically, the Seculos Attendous, who work quietly and behind the scenes to undermine and ultimately destroy the Ecclesiarchy, returning to the Imperial Truth's progressive nature. The Inquisition doesn't have enough evidence to use against them, but the Ministorum bitterly opposes Inquisitors of this faction.


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purplefood wrote:The Inquisition is a necessary evil...
The Administratum is a necessary system.
Neither the Mechanicus or the Astartes have the reasources to survive on their own for a prolonged period...
Both depend on the Imperium at large for most safety.

The Mechanicus survived without the Imperium for at least a millenium before the rise of the Imperium. And Astartes Chapters are self-sufficient. True, they'd be restricted to defending the realms of their homeworlds, but if brother Chapters join forces, they can most definitely hold out.

Tadashi wrote:The Grey Knights could be retained without the Ordo Malleus to deal with major daemonic incursions. Xenos can be contained by the Imperial military by themselves, and heretic cells can be combated by the Arbites and the Witch Seekers.

But they still won't do the prevention work that the Inquisition currently does. The Witch-Seekers are limited in number, like the Astartes. They can't be on every planet across the Imperium at once so they'll have to run backwards & forwards combating the 'heretics', daemons & xenos. Something to point out, a heretic is someone who speaks out against, or is a dissenter from, a religious dogma. You would like to see the removal of religion from the Imperium, so you can't actually have any heretics or heresy, thus, I suppose, you don't have to worry about any 'heretical' cells because there aren't any! Problem solved.

The Ecclesiarchy is a monstrosity. It's little better than the worship of the Chaos Gods. The Astartes and the Mechanicum wouldn't shed a tear over it's destruction. The Emperor is probably silently cursing it's very existence and the stupidity and failure of the High Lords and the Inquisition from the Golden Throne.

Yes it is but most religions we know are or were monstrosities. Certainly things are rather more liberal now, but look back to c2000BC-c1800AD and all of the wars, deaths, torture, unhappiness, poverty, destruction and so on that have arisen from, or been caused by, religion and it's not that much different from the religion of the 40k Imperium of Man. However, even if those at the top find it a monstrosity, it's the perfect tool for uniting and controlling Imperial Citizens. The countless billions of souls that comprise the Imperium want something to believe in, even need something to believe in, for many reasons. With their belief in the Emperor they will go to their deaths bravely on the battlefield, will work long hours each day for their Emperor, will do what they're told for their Emperor - try doing the same without the control the Imperial Creed grants to those at the top.

And if the Administratum can't be overhauled, then basically the traitors have already won. The Imperium will simply rot away slowly. All the efforts of the Imperial Guard, Astartes, etc. are for nothing.

Of course, that's the point. Humanity is gripping on by bleeding fingertips, trying to maintain a hold on what it has against major threats from outside and from within, holding on in the 'grim darkness of the far future'. If it were otherwise, the Imperium kicking the hell out of everyone, then I wouldn't be interested in the slightest in 40k. But humanity, spread across the stars, fighting each day, every day to hold on, beset by enemies on all sides and from within who are technically & sometimes culturally more advanced - it's brilliant. Brings together the darker parts of humanity, the blind faith, the fear of innovation and creation, plodding on maintaining the status quo and serves it up with vigour.

Failing all else, I'll just wait until the Emperor dies then. The Mechanicus and the Astartes are more than capable of surviving on their own as the Administratum, Inquisition, and the Ecclesiarchy falls apart. Then the Emperor comes back, and we can start anew, and do it right this time.

Meh, I prefer humanity trying to survive and doing it all wrong. Feels far more human than some 'Hollywood'esque "Hey, we're human and we're kicking everyone's arses!".

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
But they still won't do the prevention work that the Inquisition currently does. The Witch-Seekers are limited in number, like the Astartes. They can't be on every planet across the Imperium at once so they'll have to run backwards & forwards combating the 'heretics', daemons & xenos. Something to point out, a heretic is someone who speaks out against, or is a dissenter from, a religious dogma. You would like to see the removal of religion from the Imperium, so you can't actually have any heretics or heresy, thus, I suppose, you don't have to worry about any 'heretical' cells because there aren't any! Problem solved.

Good point.

Yes it is but most religions we know are or were monstrosities. Certainly things are rather more liberal now, but look back to c2000BC-c1800AD and all of the wars, deaths, torture, unhappiness, poverty, destruction and so on that have arisen from, or been caused by, religion and it's not that much different from the religion of the 40k Imperium of Man. However, even if those at the top find it a monstrosity, it's the perfect tool for uniting and controlling Imperial Citizens. The countless billions of souls that comprise the Imperium want something to believe in, even need something to believe in, for many reasons. With their belief in the Emperor they will go to their deaths bravely on the battlefield, will work long hours each day for their Emperor, will do what they're told for their Emperor - try doing the same without the control the Imperial Creed grants to those at the top.

Doesn't change the fact this was the very thing the Emperor was trying to prevent from happening in the first place.

Tadashi wrote:Doesn't change the fact this was the very thing the Emperor was trying to prevent from happening in the first place.

But perhaps that shows that humanity, despite the attempts of individuals to change our species, will always be humanity. Lose the figurehead, rumours spread of the figureheads ascension spread and people will start to worship them. It's the way humanity is.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Doesn't change the fact this was the very thing the Emperor was trying to prevent from happening in the first place.

But perhaps that shows that humanity, despite the attempts of individuals to change our species, will always be humanity. Lose the figurehead, rumours spread of the figureheads ascension spread and people will start to worship them. It's the way humanity is.

Stupid. How the hell did we get so far? We're just walking down the same path as the Eldar, whether in 40k or in reality. In reality, I'm disgusted about how our entire world is based on money and politics with what's really important, progress, evolution, improvement, unity, getting used as excuses. In 40k terms, as an Astartes, I'm angry why I'm even fighting for such an unworthy Imperium, one that doesn't deserve the Emperor's attention and sacrifice.

Tadashi wrote:
And if the Administratum can't be overhauled, then basically the traitors have already won. The Imperium will simply rot away slowly. All the efforts of the Imperial Guard, Astartes, etc. are for nothing.

Failing all else, I'll just wait until the Emperor dies then. The Mechanicus and the Astartes are more than capable of surviving on their own as the Administratum, Inquisition, and the Ecclesiarchy falls apart. Then the Emperor comes back, and we can start anew, and do it right this time.

That is, in fact, the central thesis of Warhammer 40k. The traitors won ten thousand years ago, when they murdered the God-Emperor and shattered the faith and trust of his mightiest heroes; since then, the Imperium has been dying by inches. And it will continue to do so, the mighty edifice of humanity's works crumbling away piece by piece, until the traitors at last sweep over the Eternity Wall again and finish what they began so long ago.

Will the Emperor's soul return, when the Despoiler finally tears his rotting corpse from the Golden Throne? Perhaps. But the Emperor was never a hero in any case; he was a fool and a madman, a psychopathic dictator who crushed all opposition in name of an impossible, utopian dream. It was the Emperor's starry-eyed dreams that led to the creation of the Primarchs, and the subjugating of all military power to twenty corrupt and hateful men. It was the Emperor's raging paranoia that led him to suppress all knowledge of the truth, and thus leave his own sons helpless before the power of Chaos. It was the Emperor's impatience and arrogance that led directly to the falls of Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion and Magnus. How would having him return make anything BETTER?

You'd want the Imperium to not exist then. The Administratum is a vital bureaucracy that holds the Imperium together, it is the most important organization of mankind. The Ecclesiarchy's faith is the glue that holds all the disparate human realms together, worlds which otherwise have nothing in common. The Inquisition is needed to root out key threats to mankinds survival.

To be honest, an Imperium without the currently dogmatic and moribund version of the Administratum, Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy sounds an awful lot like the Tau Empire. Secular politics rather than spiritual.

Of course without an overarching philosophy that creates unity and a sense of purpose (I am not sure the Imperial Truth is enough, but I'm also not sure it isn't) the Imperium would be riven by internal conflict.

I don't think the result would necessarily end the Imperium, but you might end up with something akin to the medieval Holy Roman Empire, a bunch of smaller states that are theoretically beholden to a central government, but have a fair degree of local autonomy. I'd suspect these localities would be based around Space Marine chapter/legion holdings and the more notable IG Legion worlds.

The resulting structure has an advantage in that local powers would be able to respond immediately to local level threats instead of waiting for a crusade to be organized to help them out. On the downside, it's only a matter of time before somebody tries to conquer his neighbours. A Lord Solar Maccharius might have turned his attentions into expanding his holdings in the Imperium, instead of moving outwards, just as an example.