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I wouldn't mind getting rid of the Ecclesiarchy, personally.

Just so long as there's a way for me to keep fielding my Sisters of Battle models, even if they're not the holy warriors they are now - though I do like them being holy warriors. If the worst happens and they're eliminated entirely as a Codex, I'll find an appropriate codex to proxy them as. Sorta like how some Squats players use the Imperial Guard codex for their models these days.

Hell, I might just integrate them with my Hellfire Marines and intermingle them into the army, using the Space Marine codex. The equipment is similar enough for it to work, and it'd be nice to field a combined army. Now if only I could add the Hellfire Guard into it.

Edit: The Inquisition can go away too. I never liked them beyond the purpose of an internal bad guy - in some of my roleplaying sessions with my friend, Imperial Inquisitors have tried to capture him or destroy his base, and the Inquisition makes for good bad guys. The only reason I have any Inquisitor models is, well, the first one looked cool and was a limited edition figure, and the second was bought during the existence of Codex: Witch Hunters after I saw the Sister Hospitaler model and got a couple of them.

The administratum should be left alone. The best form of government is one that is slow to move. Just consider the concept of managing an entire galaxy with trillions of people in it. That is a daunting task and I can't conceive of a better way.

The inquisitors will always be necessary. Bear in mind that they do "eat their own" so to speak so bad ones get rooted out pretty often. Also they are the primary source of intelligence within and outside of the imperium. By associating with the very creatures the imperium has declared persona non gratis, they know what's coming and can help guide humanity.

The ecclesiarchy on the other hand is something I believe the emperor purposely allowed to get started. First off, he knew what Lorgar was doing on newly conquered worlds and let it run unchecked for 150+ years. Also I can't believe that he wasn't informed of the events that happened afterwards leading up to the final heresy battle with regards to the various cults starting up proclaiming him a god. I think that his ultimate plan was to battle the chaos gods in the immaterium itself. With the Imperial Truth simpy being one weapon in that war whose purpose was to temporarily starve the gods.

The real problem for humanity is simply the oppression that exists. Some of the people here have said that most of humanity is bound together by faith or belief in the emperor. I think that's false, instead I think the faith only exists because it is beaten into them every single day of their pathetic miserable lives. Given a chance I think most would gladly throw that yoke off.... Only to trade it for another

The inquisition is the primary source of intelligence for the Imperium because they kill anyone else who asks about these things as a heretic.

Vaktathi wrote:Also, lets not forget that, at the core of it, it was the Space Marines that began and led the Heresy with half their number turning against the Emperor, and since then over 50 chapters (about 1 in every 20 chapters right there, a 5% rate of turning traitor right there) and thousands of other marines as individuals/squads/comapanies have turned to Chaos and yet more gone simply off on their own deal, so if anything should be abolished...

Indeed. Here's an idea, let's just retcon the Space Marines out of the setting, then we can have the Emperor alive leading the human armies into a Golden Age!

Plus, we get a couple more regular updates aside from "Codex: Yet Another Chapter" etc...

On a related note: I also find it amusing how people complain about the inhuman cruelty of Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, yet apparently frenzied butchers like the Flesh Tearers are perfectly okay on the basis of being Astartes.

Tadashi wrote:The Mechanicus survived without the Imperium for at least a millenium before the rise of the Imperium.

I think you're forgetting that the Mechanicus has grown a bit since then.

Tadashi wrote:And Astartes Chapters are self-sufficient.

We'll see how long that lasts once their Techmarines are no longer able to study on Mars, the Ecclesiarchy stops sending them their precious Rosarius, the Forgeworlds stop building ships for them, ...

But in the end, for me it's all about the most important thing and the unique trait of the setting ...

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Meh, I prefer humanity trying to survive and doing it all wrong. Feels far more human than some 'Hollywood'esque "Hey, we're human and we're kicking everyone's arses!".

Couldn't have said it better myself.

PS: Pouncey - off into the Penitent Machine with you.

Lynata wrote:PS: Pouncey - off into the Penitent Machine with you.

Awwww...

They Ecclesiarchy is just too fanatical for my tastes. Sisters of Battle kill the innocent along with the guilty. Not to mention that Penitent Engines, Argo-Flagellants, and Repentia are all disgusting concepts to me.

Thank the gods for the ability to write custom fluff. ^_^

Pouncey wrote:

Lynata wrote:PS: Pouncey - off into the Penitent Machine with you.

Awwww...

They Ecclesiarchy is just too fanatical for my tastes. Sisters of Battle kill the innocent along with the guilty. Not to mention that Penitent Engines, Argo-Flagellants, and Repentia are all disgusting concepts to me.

Thank the gods for the ability to write custom fluff. ^_^

Isn't that the point of a dystopian setting?

Reorganize them first and then we are talking. But not get rid of them it will break the imperium.

purplefood wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

Lynata wrote:PS: Pouncey - off into the Penitent Machine with you.

Awwww...

They Ecclesiarchy is just too fanatical for my tastes. Sisters of Battle kill the innocent along with the guilty. Not to mention that Penitent Engines, Argo-Flagellants, and Repentia are all disgusting concepts to me.

Thank the gods for the ability to write custom fluff. ^_^

Isn't that the point of a dystopian setting?

Probably. Sometimes I do question why I play WH40k at all, since I dislike grimdark stuff. But then I remember that custom fluff exists, and while it doesn't change the setting, it does allow me to play genuine good guys who are trying to survive in a galaxy of bad guys - though sometimes I play the bad guys while my opponent plays the good guys. If everything was all rainbows and sunshine, why would the games I play be taking place at all? Probably for very boring reasons, like recreations of ancient battles, or training, or a VR simulation for fun.

Pouncey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

Lynata wrote:PS: Pouncey - off into the Penitent Machine with you.

Awwww...

They Ecclesiarchy is just too fanatical for my tastes. Sisters of Battle kill the innocent along with the guilty. Not to mention that Penitent Engines, Argo-Flagellants, and Repentia are all disgusting concepts to me.

Thank the gods for the ability to write custom fluff. ^_^

Isn't that the point of a dystopian setting?

Probably. Sometimes I do question why I play WH40k at all, since I dislike grimdark stuff. But then I remember that custom fluff exists, and while it doesn't change the setting, it does allow me to play genuine good guys who are trying to survive in a galaxy of bad guys - though sometimes I play the bad guys while my opponent plays the good guys. If everything was all rainbows and sunshine, why would the games I play be taking place at all? Probably for very boring reasons, like recreations of ancient battles, or training, or a VR simulation for fun.

That seems fair...

The centralization and bureaucratization of control is what defines an empire as an empire. One million marines can't do anything. There are probably more Inquisitors on some hive worlds than there are marines in the universe.

Jefffar wrote:The inquisition is the primary source of intelligence for the Imperium because they kill anyone else who asks about these things as a heretic.

Yes. With the added caveat that the wrong mind thinking the wrong thought in the 40k universe can literally make that person's head into a portal to hell...

Which sort of undermines your point.

What happened in Salem would have to be seen very differently if there really was an evil greater than the evil in man's heart.

Speaking as a practitioner of it myself, liberal humanism has no place in a world where magic and psychic powers are objectively, observably real and god (or gods), rather than being subjects/objects for philosophical speculation, walk the battlefield.

Our modern ideas of right and wrong have nothing to say to the world of 40k, the basic reality is so divergent from our own.

Doctor Optimal wrote:The centralization and bureaucratization of control is what defines an empire as an empire. One million marines can't do anything. There are probably more Inquisitors on some hive worlds than there are marines in the universe.

Not sure but MArines probably edge out Inquisitors in terms of numbers...
In terms of force that can be applied... well can you say the entire Imperium?

Tadashi wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Doesn't change the fact this was the very thing the Emperor was trying to prevent from happening in the first place.

But perhaps that shows that humanity, despite the attempts of individuals to change our species, will always be humanity. Lose the figurehead, rumours spread of the figureheads ascension spread and people will start to worship them. It's the way humanity is.

Stupid. How the hell did we get so far? We're just walking down the same path as the Eldar, whether in 40k or in reality. In reality, I'm disgusted about how our entire world is based on money and politics with what's really important, progress, evolution, improvement, unity, getting used as excuses. In 40k terms, as an Astartes, I'm angry why I'm even fighting for such an unworthy Imperium, one that doesn't deserve the Emperor's attention and sacrifice.

And so the seeds of Chaos are planted...

purplefood wrote:Not sure but MArines probably edge out Inquisitors in terms of numbers...

Yup - at least the GW material make that seem fairly evident.

"Each Inquisitor is a peer of the Imperium, one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over mankind. As such, an Inquisitor can recruit any military or civilian force in the pursuit of Imperial duties, from hive world security details through entire Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions and vessels of the Imperial Navy."
- 5E Rulebook

Sounds rare enough to me.

The Imperium would completely fall apart. Of course, any major change at this point would cause the exceedingly fragile Imperium to fall apart.

Getting rid of the Imperial Agencies is more or less like Jenga, if you pull out the wrong block it all falls apart.

Alexzandvar wrote:Getting rid of the Imperial Agencies is more or less like Jenga, if you pull out the wrong block it all falls apart.

That's an apt simile. The Imperium is like an extreme game of Jenga and it's a miracle they've lasted this long. I imagine it looking like this at this point.

LoneLictor wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Getting rid of the Imperial Agencies is more or less like Jenga, if you pull out the wrong block it all falls apart.

That's an apt simile. The Imperium is like an extreme game of Jenga and it's a miracle they've lasted this long. I imagine it looking like this at this point.

It's why I hate Jenga, I always end up in a position like that. I will say we could do some major REFORMING in these offices we cannot get rid of them at this point with out the system falling apart.

That's about as feasible as getting rid of the Vatican (who could afford to feed the third world each day and still live comfortably but don't), globalization by big business and political corruption IRL.

Religious fundamentalism, beaurocracy and commerce have such a strong stranglehold that the general populace just says "well, there's nothing I can do about it."

Case in point: posting about these concepts in an imaginary world instead of IRL.

But don't worry - between the 'nids, chaos, necrons, orks and whatever else, the imperium is likely to be "reenvisioned" soon enough

To all those who hate the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum realize that all these offices are required for this, a fundamental and NEEDED ability of the Imperium of Man to quell any advantage it's enemies gain over it in it's sector... The Ecclesiarchy to ensure they are raised correctly, The Administratum to insure all is accounted for and the Inquisition when they fail the Emperor completely... You may not like them but i ask you this; Do you enjoy the religious fanatics, Politics, Law enforcement or the Military? Then why do we tolerate them? Because they represent something we as the people require of ourselves... Control

(edited for typos)

Jefffar wrote:

I don't think the result would necessarily end the Imperium, but you might end up with something akin to the medieval Holy Roman Empire, a bunch of smaller states that are theoretically beholden to a central government, but have a fair degree of local autonomy. I'd suspect these localities would be based around Space Marine chapter/legion holdings and the more notable IG Legion worlds.

The resulting structure has an advantage in that local powers would be able to respond immediately to local level threats instead of waiting for a crusade to be organized to help them out. On the downside, it's only a matter of time before somebody tries to conquer his neighbours. A Lord Solar Maccharius might have turned his attentions into expanding his holdings in the Imperium, instead of moving outwards, just as an example.

Considering how Mr. Ward has 40k moving back to "Warhammer in spaaaaaaaaaaaace!!!!!!!!", I get the feeling in a couple of editions the Imperium will be like the Empire, not so monolithic, more feudal, with knight-like astartes and more varied Imperial Guards. On the plus side, we might see less frothing priests and more friendly xenos...not sure if the latter's a good thing though...