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To me, there is an obvious answer, its the buyers responsibility.

The reason I am asking, is out of the thousands of orders that have been shipped by Chapterhouse, recently I have had a number of UK and German customers saying they refuse to pay the Customs and VAT fees and demand a refund.

The issue with this is two-fold. One, the customer has had the chance to receive the items as promised. Two, if they refuse the items and do not pay for VAT, I am out the customers sale AND my products since they will most likely not be shipped back from overseas.

It is obvious in my opinion that the customer is responsible for the fees and taxes. Am I missing something? Personally I would never expect an outside source to pay for something my country decides to tax me on.

I am soon to put the disclaimer in my "Terms of Service" that the customer is responsible for all taxes and fees just to be safe.

Nick
Chapterhouse Studios LLC

Yeah, Its the importers ( Customers) responsility. anything over £18 from outside the eu is subject to vat.

The purchaser is responsible for all customs and brokerage fees unless specifically stipulated otherwise as part of the contract.

They are entitled to a refund due to buyer's remorse provided they return the product, however in order to do so they will still have to pay for the customs fees beforehand, of which you have no obligation to reimburse as part of the refund.

At least, that's how it is in Canada & the US.

They are liable for shouldering import costs. There are only certain ways to ensure the stuff you bring into the country is duty-free because in doing so the tax-man doesn't get his cut.

Furthermore, if they are a business and they are charged VAT, they should be able to claim it back. So I wouldn't be too keen to pay their VAT for them.

The customer would be responsible. That is part of ordering from overseas.

See, that is the way I have always conducted business.

Saying that, I have had rude and angry customers email me about the VAT and customs fees. I simply reply that it is the importers responsibility to pay those fees and know about them as well.

I have some customers request we list the item as a "Gift" to avoid these fees. Doing so could get me blacklisted as well as in trouble with that country and its postal service..

Do any business owners have any other experiences regarding customs and duty fees?

I've had the occasional complaint about customs fees.I think it's a side-effect of people not being widely educated about how it all works, but being able to just jump online and order from anywhere in the world... The customs duty bill can come as abit of a surprise, and they just assume that someone should have told them about it beforehand.

It's not really the seller's responsibility to educate people in another country about their country's importing laws, though, and it's most definitely not up to the seller to shoulder those costs. That would more or less defy the point of those charges in the first place.

The customer is responsible for any import taxes or duties. There is no way that the seller can be versed in all the taxes and duties imposed by other countries, some countries have import fees some don't.

That said the buyer should be informed that they are responsible for all duites or taxes. Ebay for example is very clear on that point if people actually read the user terms.

They should also be made aware that you will not under-declare package values. Having those two things mentioned in your terms should help avoid future conflicts.

I think it was totally unreasonable that they put in an order and expected you to foot the bill. It's not like you sent them something COD that they didn't want. On ebay they call it "buyers remorse" where the buyer spends money on an item but has time to rethink their impulse purchase before it arrives and then shifts the blame to the seller.


Also just a general note to the sellers out there, do not use UPS for international deliveries they impose a import broker fee for delivering items apparently to pay for their own customs officers. I shipped a $15 item to Canada and the customer got charged $25 by UPS for importing the item. Needless to say both myself and the buyer were shocked as it's not something UPS mention unless specifically asked about. It was a very rude an underhanded tactic IMO as they hold the item hostage until the recipient pays up and if they decide not to pay UPS keeps it and it's not returned to the sender. Since that experience I never use UPS for international delivery.

Customer has always been responsible for anything Ive sent over seas.

Customer 110%

Silly thing is its like playing russian roulette, the HM Customs folks don't have the manpower to check everything that comes into the country, so they check batches (containers, loads) and if you have something in a batch they decide to check, well you've got to take your lumps.

I've probably only had to pay around four times over the last ten years, but probably had about twenty orders come in from the US, so I'm happy to take that percentage.

Chapterhouse wrote:See, that is the way I have always conducted business.

Saying that, I have had rude and angry customers email me about the VAT and customs fees. I simply reply that it is the importers responsibility to pay those fees and know about them as well.

I have some customers request we list the item as a "Gift" to avoid these fees. Doing so could get me blacklisted as well as in trouble with that country and its postal service..

Do any business owners have any other experiences regarding customs and duty fees?

Don't list it as a gift as your business is your livelihood and not just some random swap shop trade. The customer is responsible for those fees and people in Europe are well aware of them unless they've been living under a rock. I would, however, change your terms of service to specifically state this (including naming any specific ones like VAT by name if they've already given you trouble). What actually happens if they don't pay the VAT? Is it charged by the postman upon delivery or do they have to pick it up ahead of time? If there is a way for you as a seller to pay for it, is charging for it at the point of sale to Euro customers an option?

In the Uk you get a letter informing you that you need to pay the duty.

Why folks get funny over it, is they'll charge you a percentage of the value, most of the time for me its been around the £4 mark, but then they hit you with a £10 handling fee.

Annoying, but like I said, sometimes you just have to take it.

Chapterhouse wrote:I have some customers request we list the item as a "Gift" to avoid these fees. Doing so could get me blacklisted as well as in trouble with that country and its postal service..

Do any business owners have any other experiences regarding customs and duty fees?

This would be illegal and pointless, as gifts ares still subject to the VAT and import duty. (I used to have a link to this on the old HMRC website - UK customs office).

That said I have found some accurate descriptions seem to not get caught for customs fees over others..it's all at the discretion of the csutoms officer. Describing items as model parts rather than models seemed to work more often than not when I lived in the UK - YMMV.


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paulson games wrote:
Also just a general note to the sellers out there, do not use UPS for international deliveries they impose a import broker fee for delivering items apparently to pay for their own customs officers. I shipped a $15 item to Canada and the customer got charged $25 by UPS for importing the item. Needless to say both myself and the buyer were shocked as it's not something UPS mention unless specifically asked about. It was a very rude an underhanded tactic IMO as they hold the item hostage until the recipient pays up and if they decide not to pay UPS keeps it and it's not returned to the sender. Since that experience I never use UPS for international delivery.

AFAIK this is something that's particular to UPS Canada - UPS UK had a much cheaper fee IIRC.

paulson games wrote:The customer is responsible for any import taxes or duties. There is no way that the seller can be versed in all the taxes and duties imposed by other countries, some countries have import fees some don't.

That said the buyer should be informed that they are responsible for all duites or taxes. Ebay for example is very clear on that point if people actually read the user terms.

They should also be made aware that you will not under-declare package values. Having those two things mentioned in your terms should help avoid future conflicts.

I think it was totally unreasonable that they put in an order and expected you to foot the bill. It's not like you sent them something COD that they didn't want. On ebay they call it "buyers remorse" where the buyer spends money on an item but has time to rethink their impulse purchase before it arrives and then shifts the blame to the seller.


Also just a general note to the sellers out there, do not use UPS for international deliveries they impose a import broker fee for delivering items apparently to pay for their own customs officers. I shipped a $15 item to Canada and the customer got charged $25 by UPS for importing the item. Needless to say both myself and the buyer were shocked as it's not something UPS mention unless specifically asked about. It was a very rude an underhanded tactic IMO as they hold the item hostage until the recipient pays up and if they decide not to pay UPS keeps it and it's not returned to the sender. Since that experience I never use UPS for international delivery.

I always considered Custom charges were the customer's responsibility but I also consider UPS fees and such other fees to be the seller's responsibility as they (most likely) are the ones to choose which company they ship with, personally I steer clear of anyone using UPS as they also leave the package on the front door without even ringing.

Add something about custom charges to you Term of Use because it sucks some buyers are too dumb/malicious and that makes the honest seller suffer.

warboss wrote:If there is a way for you as a seller to pay for it, is charging for it at the point of sale to Euro customers an option?

My advice: if this is possible, DO NOT DO THIS. You will never hear the end of the problems. I understand the balance of customer service vs. operating convenience, but if a person whines about their own lack of personal responsibility in being aware of their own country's laws, then it is far better to no longer consider that person a customer.

paulson games wrote:Also just a general note to the sellers out there, do not use UPS for international deliveries they impose a import broker fee for delivering items apparently to pay for their own customs officers. I shipped a $15 item to Canada and the customer got charged $25 by UPS for importing the item. Needless to say both myself and the buyer were shocked as it's not something UPS mention unless specifically asked about. It was a very rude an underhanded tactic IMO as they hold the item hostage until the recipient pays up and if they decide not to pay UPS keeps it and it's not returned to the sender. Since that experience I never use UPS for international delivery.

UPS, FedEx, DHL & TNT all definitely charge a brokerage fee surcharge. The size of that charge may vary from country to country, I'm sure.

I've been hit for $25 from UPS and $35 from FedEx. I always request basic gov't shipping now. The worst was TNT, as they tried to charge me a $43 brokerage fee, even though there was no record of my package having any customs fee associated. (that charge triggered a legal dispute that I won because TNT could not provide a receipt proving they had actually performed the service that I was being billed for)

I would suggest to retailers that a warning or indication of the possibility that would appear when the international shipping option is chosen would be a good idea.

I consider myself to be a realatively well educated person but rarely read terms and conditions/small print with online trades. (you want it or you don't after all).

While including this sort of information will cover you, if it is hidden (I am assuming) in a wall o text perhaps or on a seperate page then it may still not be seen and piss of you customer with the associated problems.

I've always paid them as a customer. It sucks, but it's the only way to go if the seller doesn't mark it as a gift and declares a low value. Wich is the best option.


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LavuranGuard wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:I have some customers request we list the item as a "Gift" to avoid these fees. Doing so could get me blacklisted as well as in trouble with that country and its postal service..

Do any business owners have any other experiences regarding customs and duty fees?

This would be illegal and pointless, as gifts ares still subject to the VAT and import duty. (I used to have a link to this on the old HMRC website - UK customs office).

If there is a low value declared (like 10$) it isn't pointless. I have two reasons to buy to USA:

- the item is not for sale in Europe: if it's something I want so bad, I'd be ready to pay the extra money for it.

- the item is cheaper than buying it in Europe: if I'm saving some money on the price but than I have to pay an extra in taxes... screw it. I'd rather spend the money then in a physical store.

insaniak wrote:I've had the occasional complaint about customs fees.I think it's a side-effect of people not being widely educated about how it all works, but being able to just jump online and order from anywhere in the world... The customs duty bill can come as abit of a surprise, and they just assume that someone should have told them about it beforehand.

It's not really the seller's responsibility to educate people in another country about their country's importing laws, though, and it's most definitely not up to the seller to shoulder those costs. That would more or less defy the point of those charges in the first place.

Exactly.

The imposition of 20% VAT, an import tariff and a handling fee of £8 comes as a nasty shock if you are new to international ordering and perhaps only purchased £20 of goods.

However it is the customer's responsibility to know about this and to pay the fees. He cannot claim a refund from the seller. Customs fees are basic law, not part of the terms and conditions of the contract of sale.

It would be kind to make a page on your website giving a basic explanation of customs charges, maybe with links to the Customs pages of several countries. That would be purely as a courtesy and might help defend your reputation against disappointed customers making unreasonable demands.

In the UK, the Royal Mail will impose a handling fee on items sent by USPS if import duty is paid.

This is why you need a UK distributor.

I have to have a really, *really* good reason for buying something from the US. Generally, that reason is "I cannot find it absolutely anywhere else".

It firmly lies with the customer.
We are all aware that buying outside the EU can incur charges and for small things of low value 90% of the time you do not get charged, however HMRC do sometimes go on a blitz. (its a stat gathering exercise to argue their budgets for the forthcoming year and also to acertain staffing levels.).
There is no point in bitching to the retailer about it as he has done nothing wrong. Pay the Bill and stop whining.


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scarletsquig wrote:This is why you need a UK distributor.

It will still work out the same and possibly higher for there to be a UK distributor.

For a relatively low volume, a small percentage could possibly be saved if the wholesale value is cheap enough. VAT and import duty would be charged on the wholesale value, then it's down to the distributor to make as much profit as possible up to the point where they need to VAT register (about £75k turnover IIRC). For low volume manufacturers though it's difficult if not impossible to offer a low enough wholesale price to a foreign distributor and still make a profit on the manufacture.

Oh the joys of living in the UK, they tax everything they can O.o

Erasoketa wrote:I've always paid them as a customer. It sucks, but it's the only way to go if the seller doesn't mark it as a gift and declares a low value. Wich is the best option.

As far as I understand, mislabeling or providing false information to avoid customs fees / government charges is illegal.

How does that make it the 'best option'?

You are the exporter, the customer is the -importer-. You deal with any expenses on your end, the importer deals with import tax and fees on their end.

I know some companies (UPS via BH Photo/Video) that handle the VAT etc. during the payment process. Usually the VAT and currency conversion they add is really over the top. Closer to 35% than the usual 25% VAT. So it's not really a good option unless you mostly cater to overseas customers.

My suggestion is that you just inform the customer that they're responsible for any customs fees and VAT during the checkout. Saves you a lot of hassle.

I would also advice you not to mark down the declared value since it will lead to problem / financial loss if a parcel goes AWOL and you can only claim 50% of it due to a lower declared value.

I'm curious about a related issue, which I encountered with GW, and thats the payment of local VAT.

In my case I attempted to buy some stuff from GW and asked if they would remove the VAT as the item was to be shipped to the Falklands, they refused saying that they were incapable of doing so and that I would need to speak to my local UK HMC. (Good trick since I'm on the other side of the world).

Do you still charge the customer for local taxes even though the item is being exported?

Cheers

Andrew

bolo wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:I've always paid them as a customer. It sucks, but it's the only way to go if the seller doesn't mark it as a gift and declares a low value. Wich is the best option.

As far as I understand, mislabeling or providing false information to avoid customs fees / government charges is illegal.

How does that make it the 'best option'?

Being the cheapest. It is illegal, but I still don't know why should I pay about 400$US to the Spanish government for a used guitar bought on eBay, for example.

Erasoketa wrote:Being the cheapest. It is illegal, but I still don't know why should I pay about 400$US to the Spanish government for a used guitar bought on eBay, for example.

Presumably because you're not paying a Spanish seller (who would then need to pass on whatever income or business taxes would apply) for a used guitar bought within Spain.

The 'best' option is not to expect the seller to do something illegal in order for you to not have to pay fees that you would otherwise be legally obliged to pay. The best option is for you to make yourself aware of the Customs duties and taxes that apply to imports into your country and factor them into the price of your overseas purchases.

There's no VAT on private sales within the EU, but there is VAT, import duties and fees on private sales imported from outside the EU. Not sure what the rationale is but that's how it works.

TBH it's just something you have to be aware of and if lucky the Customs won't pick your package for duty. Only about 1/4 of the packages I have ordered have been assessed by Customs.

insaniak wrote:Presumably because you're not paying a Spanish seller (who would then need to pass on whatever income or business taxes would apply) for a used guitar bought within Spain.

Selling new products in stores we pay VAT, selling used items between individuals we don't have to.

The 'best' option is not to expect the seller to do something illegal in order for you to not have to pay fees that you would otherwise be legally obliged to pay. The best option is for you to make yourself aware of the Customs duties and taxes that apply to imports into your country and factor them into the price of your overseas purchases.

As I said, I do pay, and I know how it goes. But it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.


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Kilkrazy wrote:TBH it's just something you have to be aware of and if lucky the Customs won't pick your package for duty. Only about 1/4 of the packages I have ordered have been assessed by Customs.

That's a thing I really hate about it. If ALL the packages were revised and charged, it would be more fair. But if you're not lucky, get your wallet ready.

Erasoketa wrote:As I said, I do pay, and I know how it goes. But it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

That's just it, though... What do you gain by being unhappy about it?

If you factor it in as a part of the price from the start, then it's just part of the price rather than an extra charge. If you're still coming out cheaper than buying locally (which is the usual reason for buying online from overseas) then you still win. Happy for everyone.



I don't really see it as being any different to paying for international shipping. It's an extra charge on top of the price of the item, which often makes it considerably more expensive than it initially looked... but it's just part of the cost of buying internationally.