Necron Warriors, Crypteks, Lords, and Ghost Arks

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**tetrisphreak**

Alright so here's the scenario that came up in a battle report here on Dakka (I was not a participant). A unit of necron warriors was joined at the start of the game by a couple Necron Lords, which makes them for all intents and purposes part of that unit. During the game, the squad was killed and either by simply surviving or passing their ever-living rolls, only the necron lords remained alive. Then on the next Necron turn, a Ghost ark repaired the Lord's unit and added warriors back. The reasoning was that since the Lords and Crypteks aren't IC's, they count as part of the squad they join for all intents and purposes, thus making that lord part of a 'warrior' squad.

Was this legal? I play necrons and I admit that if this were a legal move, it makes warriors stand out more as a competitive troop choice when comparing them to Immortals. I personally would not play it this way, however, until I was thoroughly convinced it wasn't a shenanigans play. It just seems too good to be true.

Your thoughts?

**rigeld2**

Works for me. The warrior unit still exists, and that's all the Ark cares about - right?

**tetrisphreak**

rigeld2 wrote:Works for me. The warrior unit still exists, and that's all the Ark cares about - right?

Right, and I see it that way *now*, but the way the rule in the Ghost ark is worded it sounded to me like actual Warriors needed to be on the table for it to work. Under most circumstances, once the warrior unit is gone it's gone, but with attached lords and crypteks with the ever-living rule it really does increase the survivability...making Necrons the slow, resilient army they were designed as, right?

**whigwam**

I'd say the Ghost Ark still works. When the Cryptek/Lord makes their Ever-Living roll, they don't return to play as an entirely new unit. They remain the same unit they were, which in this case is a unit of Warriors. (By the same token, a lone Cryptek/Lord will be able to hold objectives even when their Warrior/Immortal comrades are dead.)

Now if I could actually pass an Ever-Living roll for once...

**TheAvengingKnee**

whigwam wrote:Now if I could actually pass an Ever-Living roll for once...

With my luck with it, i don't think its going to happen.

**azazel the cat**

This one is simple:

Yes, the Ghost Ark can repair the unit, because there is still a model left from the unit. That model itself cannot be repaired, but the Warriors can. This is the exact same question of whether or not the attached Cryptek is still considered a scoring unit if all of the Warriors are wiped out. And the FAQ answers 'yes' to the latter, so the principle should extend to the Ghost Ark question.

**kirsanth**

azazel the cat wrote:This one is simple:

Yes, the Ghost Ark can repair the unit, because there is still a model left from the unit. That model itself cannot be repaired, but the Warriors can. This is the exact same question of whether or not the attached Cryptek is still considered a scoring unit if all of the Warriors are wiped out. And the FAQ answers 'yes' to the latter, so the principle should extend to the Ghost Ark question.

Am I mis-reading your quote or the FAQ you mentioned?

editing to add:
No, I was reading this one:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out

Which implies the opposite,I think.

**Mesothere**

pg48 on Retinues says they turn back into Independant Characters after a unit they've joined is dead. Is this not applicable here?

**whigwam**

Mesothere wrote:pg48 on Retinues says they turn back into Independant Characters after a unit they've joined is dead. Is this not applicable here?

Warriors are not a retinue and Crypteks/Lords are not ICs.

**time wizard**

Mesothere wrote:pg48 on Retinues says they turn back into Independant Characters after a unit they've joined is dead. Is this not applicable here?

Oh! Good find!
But it's actually even better than that.
The rule doesn't say they "turn back into Independent characters" because that would not affect a Cryptek, they were not Independnt characters to begin with.

But under the Retinues section it says the character counts as an upgrade character until the other members of the unit are killed, "...at which point it strats counting as a independent character and will do so for the rest of the game."

So the Cryptek and Lord are with a unit of warriors. The warriors get wiped out. The Cryptek and Lord now "count as" independent characters, and they are listed as royal court in the HQ section.
They are not warriors, so the Ghost Arc cannot nominate the Cryptek and the Lord as a unit of Necron Warriors.

**kirsanth**

whigwam wrote:Warriors are not a retinue and Crypteks/Lords are not ICs.

Character ≠ Independent Character

**rigeld2**

time wizard wrote:
Mesothere wrote:pg48 on Retinues says they turn back into Independant Characters after a unit they've joined is dead. Is this not applicable here?

Oh! Good find!
But it's actually even better than that.
The rule doesn't say they "turn back into Independent characters" because that would not affect a Cryptek, they were not Independnt characters to begin with.

But under the Retinues section it says the character counts as an upgrade character until the other members of the unit are killed, "...at which point it strats counting as a independent character and will do so for the rest of the game."

So the Cryptek and Lord are with a unit of warriors. The warriors get wiped out. The Cryptek and Lord now "count as" independent characters, and they are listed as royal court in the HQ section.
They are not warriors, so the Ghost Arc cannot nominate the Cryptek and the Lord as a unit of Necron Warriors.

...

Except the warriors are not a Retinue. The Cryptek and Lord were not forced to join the unit. They never lost IC status because they never were an IC.
The rules in that section have less to do with a Necron unit than the stats for a Storm Shield.

**kirsanth**

rigeld2 wrote: The Cryptek and Lord were not forced to join the unit.

This does not matter. Only whether they can LEAVE.

**rigeld2**

kirsanth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote: The Cryptek and Lord were not forced to join the unit.
This does not matter. Only whether they can LEAVE.

Thanks for the correction. My point stands.

**kirsanth**

rigeld2 wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote: The Cryptek and Lord were not forced to join the unit.
This does not matter. Only whether they can LEAVE.

Thanks for the correction. My point stands.

rigeld2 wrote: they were not Independnt characters to begin with.

Character ≠ Independent Character

**time wizard**

kirsanth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote: The Cryptek and Lord were not forced to join the unit.
This does not matter. Only whether they can LEAVE.

"Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit...".

"Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the start of the game..."

Sounds like this follows all the rules for a "retinue, bodyguard or similar".

**somerandomdude**

kirsanth wrote:No, I was reading this one:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out

Which implies the opposite,I think.

What does this imply? I can't read anything into it that has to do with this situation. That may be because I thought this question was unnecessary and the explanation makes less sense than the real reason that the book states, though.

The FAQ has two questions involving Deathmarks that seem to go against each other with regards to sharing rules (Deep Strike and Hunters from Hyperspace). I don't think we can realistically draw on an FAQ question to solve this issue, unless it directly addresses it. But if we must, I think the HfH ruling (that, for the use of special rules unique to the codex, Royal Court members are always a part of the unit they are attached to) makes more sense.

**kirsanth**

somerandomdude wrote:What does this imply?

That a dead character with a dead unit does not allow the unit to come back.

**rigeld2**

kirsanth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote: The Cryptek and Lord were not forced to join the unit.
This does not matter. Only whether they can LEAVE.

Thanks for the correction. My point stands.
rigeld2 wrote: they were not Independnt characters to begin with.
Character ≠ Independent Character

**kirsanth**

Right, and retinue rules do not require an IC, but they can create one.

They require only a character with a unit it cannot leave.

**rigeld2**

kirsanth wrote:Right, and retinue rules do not require an IC, but they can create one.

They require only a character with a unit it cannot leave.

Then to go off of the only other similar mechanic, we go look at Pack Leaders.

SW FAQ wrote:Q. If a Wolf Guard Pack Leader has joined a unit of
Troops, does that unit cease to be a scoring unit? And
does the Wolf Guard cease to count as an Elite model?
(p86)
A. When a Wolf Guard model joins another unit
because of his Pack Leader special rule he becomes part
of that unit to all intents and purposes. For instance, a
Pack Leader that leads a Troops unit will still be able to
claim an objective even if his Troops unit is wiped out –
he is considered to be part of that Troops unit. He
would also still be able to deploy in a mission that only
allows Troops units to be deployed at first.
Conversely, a Pack Leader that leads a Long Fang unit is
counted as part of a Heavy Support choice, and
therefore could not claim an objective, even if under
the effects of Logan Grimnar’s The Great Wolf special
rule. This also applies to the calculation of kill points
and victory points – the Wolf Guard who have been
split off from their original Wolf Guard unit count as
part of their assigned unit in all respects.
For example, I have a Wolf Guard squad of 10 and I like
to split 3 of them off to be Wolf Guard Pack Leaders,
one to lead my Blood Claws, one to lead my Grey
Hunters, one to lead my Long Fangs. My opponent
would score one kill point if he kills off all 7 of the
Wolf Guard left in the squad after splitting, who are
still forming a ‘normal’ unit. He doesn't need to kill all
10 of the Wolf Guard to get that kill point, as the other
three Wolf Guard are now part of other squads.
Conversely, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are
attached to these new squads, he would not score a kill
point for killing those squads unless he kills ALL of the
models in those packs, including the Wolf Guard Pack
Leaders.

That's 1 KP for the unit + pack leader, meaning it's not a retinue. The Crypteks are considered part of the unit for everything - including being Troops for capturing.

**kirsanth**

Similar like ICs in pods with a unit is similar to Tyranid ICs in pods with a unit?

**rigeld2**

kirsanth wrote:Similar like ICs in pods with a unit is similar to Tyranid ICs in pods with a unit?

Yes - and if there was an FAQ saying that Warriors are a retinue for Crypteks, that's override the precedent set.
Since there isn't, it doesn't.

**kirsanth**

So you have Space wolves with an exception then?

**rigeld2**

kirsanth wrote:So you have Space wolves with an exception then?

No.

There are no rules stating the Warriors are a Retinue for a Cryptek. So we look at the closest similar thing - Pack Leaders.
Pack Leaders do not get a Retinue. There is no FAQ saying that Crypteks get a Retinue.
There is no permission for the Crypteks to become ICs when the rest of the warriros die.
What would happen if the unit comes down to just 2 Crypteks?

I understand what you're arguing - I really do.

**kirsanth**

rigeld2 wrote:I understand what you're arguing - I really do.

Cool, we are on the same page then.
I was playing Socratic Devil's Advocate.

**rigeld2**

kirsanth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:I understand what you're arguing - I really do.
Cool, we are on the same page then.
I was playing Socratic Devil's Advocate.

What's good for the goose...

**azazel the cat**

kirsanth wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:This one is simple:

Yes, the Ghost Ark can repair the unit, because there is still a model left from the unit. That model itself cannot be repaired, but the Warriors can. This is the exact same question of whether or not the attached Cryptek is still considered a scoring unit if all of the Warriors are wiped out. And the FAQ answers 'yes' to the latter, so the principle should extend to the Ghost Ark question.
Am I mis-reading your quote or the FAQ you mentioned?

editing to add:
No, I was reading this one:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out

Which implies the opposite,I think.

Sorry, I never qualified my response. I was referring to the Space Wolves FAQ. I know, it's not the best idea, however the Wolf Guard mechanic appears to be identical to the Royal Court, so I was referring to this:

Q. If a Wolf Guard Pack Leader has joined a unit of Troops, does that unit cease to be a scoring unit? And does the Wolf Guard cease to count as an Elite model? (p86)
A. When a Wolf Guard model joins another unit because of his Pack Leader special rule he becomes part of that unit to all intents and purposes. For instance, a Pack Leader that leads a Troops unit will still be able to claim an objective even if his Troops unit is wiped out – he is considered to be part of that Troops unit. He would also still be able to deploy in a mission that only allows Troops units to be deployed at first. Conversely, a Pack Leader that leads a Long Fang unit is counted as part of a Heavy Support choice, and therefore could not claim an objective, even if under the effects of Logan Grimnar’s The Great Wolf special rule. This also applies to the calculation of kill points and victory points – the Wolf Guard who have been split off from their original Wolf Guard unit count as part of their assigned unit in all respects. For example, I have a Wolf Guard squad of 10 and I like to split 3 of them off to be Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, one to lead my Blood Claws, one to lead my Grey Hunters, one to lead my Long Fangs. My opponent would score one kill point if he kills off all 7 of the Wolf Guard left in the squad after splitting, who are still forming a ‘normal’ unit. He doesn't need to kill all 10 of the Wolf Guard to get that kill point, as the other three Wolf Guard are now part of other squads. Conversely, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are attached to these new squads, he would not score a kill point for killing those squads unless he kills ALL of the models in those packs, including the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders.

By this precedent, a Cryptek attached to a Warrior unit will continue to act as a scoring unit, even if there are no Warriors left. By that logic, the Ghost Ark can still repair the unit as well, even if there are no Warriors left, as unit is still standing.

**nosferatu1001**

Not to mention that the Retinue rules are, via context, Independent Characters to begin with, as the rule is found under the major heading "Independent Characters...."

**rigeld2**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not to mention that the Retinue rules are, via context, Independent Characters to begin with, as the rule is found under the major heading "Independent Characters...."

edit: I thought of that argument early on, but dismissed it because:
Right, and Characters that lose the rest of the Retinue become - wait for it.

Keep waiting.

Independent Characters.