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rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not to mention that the Retinue rules are, via context, Independent Characters to begin with, as the rule is found under the major heading "Independent Characters...."

edit: I thought of that argument early on, but dismissed it because:
Right, and Characters that lose the rest of the Retinue become - wait for it.

Keep waiting.

Independent Characters.

Which is why, INAT states what it does.

Although I may be partially to blame for that.

For whatever that is worth. . .

The space wolves FAQ is not the necrons FAQ. Given that if a squad is wiped out and a lord or cryptek remains the squad cannot use rp the the lord cryptek is no longer part of the warrior squad. if the lord of cryptek is not part of the wRrior squad then the ghost ark ability would not work either

So rigeld, if I wipe out a Warrior Squad + Cryptek, are you going to give me 2 KP?

blaktoof wrote:The space wolves FAQ is not the necrons FAQ. Given that if a squad is wiped out and a lord or cryptek remains the squad cannot use rp the the lord cryptek is no longer part of the warrior squad. if the lord of cryptek is not part of the wRrior squad then the ghost ark ability would not work either

They can RP if the Cryptek is still alive at the end of the phase. If every model in the unit dies, the RP counters are removed but the EL counters stay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:So rigeld, if I wipe out a Warrior Squad + Cryptek, are you going to give me 2 KP?

No - because the warriors are not a retinue. If they were, you'd get 2 KP.

blaktoof wrote:The space wolves FAQ is not the necrons FAQ. Given that if a squad is wiped out and a lord or cryptek remains the squad cannot use rp the the lord cryptek is no longer part of the warrior squad. if the lord of cryptek is not part of the wRrior squad then the ghost ark ability would not work either

That is incorrect. If the Cryptek is still alive, then the Warriors can use RP. You are confusing this with the situation wherein the entire squad, including the Cryptek is wiped out, and in that case only the Cryptek may use Ever-Living.

My logic still stands, although I dislike using the Space Wolves FAQ as precedent, however it is the closest thing we have in order to guide us for this situation.

Happyjew wrote:So rigeld, if I wipe out a Warrior Squad + Cryptek, are you going to give me 2 KP?

Until the Tyranid FAQ specifically said it was 1, I was vehement that Tyrant + Guard was 2. Once I noticed.

The retinue issue is 100% why.

Sorry, rigeld, that comment of yours at the bottom of Page 1, through me for a loop. I thought you were trying to argue that they are a retinue.

Happyjew wrote:Sorry, rigeld, that comment of yours at the bottom of Page 1, through me for a loop. I thought you were trying to argue that they are a retinue.

Gotcha. No biggie.

azazel the cat wrote:That is incorrect. If the Cryptek is still alive, then the Warriors can use RP. You are confusing this with the situation wherein the entire squad, including the Cryptek is wiped out, and in that case only the Cryptek may use Ever-Living.

Codex: Necrons, page 29, last paragraph under Reanimation Protocols,
"...Note that
characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes
of Reanimation Protocols - if a character is the only survivor
of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation
Protocols roll, so remove ant remaining counters..."

ToBeWilly wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:That is incorrect. If the Cryptek is still alive, then the Warriors can use RP. You are confusing this with the situation wherein the entire squad, including the Cryptek is wiped out, and in that case only the Cryptek may use Ever-Living.

Codex: Necrons, page 29, last paragraph under Reanimation Protocols,
"...Note that
characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes
of Reanimation Protocols - if a character is the only survivor
of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation
Protocols roll, so remove ant remaining counters..."

I stand corrected and humble to you, sir.

However, it doesn't change the fact that this entry goes out of its way to make sure the Cryptek does not count for RP, however there is no similar notation regarding the Cryptek acting as a scoring unit.

As before, my logic still stands: just like the Space Wolves' Wolfe Guard, the Cryptek still counts as part of the unit for scoring purposes.

Assuming that Royal Cort member attached to a unit of warriors does not count as a character upgrade and retinue, then I agree that the ghost ark repair ability should work and that the Royal Court character still counts as scoring - assuming the original unit joined was scoring.

Some of the language in the new necron faq is mildly relevant, "Page 53 – Repair Barge
Change the third sentence to “if the result is 2 or more,
add D3 models to the unit. These must be placed
within unit coherency of at least one model that hasn’t
been created this turn. They can move and act normally
this turn.”

The repair barge ability only works on units of warriors, but the faq uses the generic "d3 models" and "at least one model." I'm not sure what to take from that.

The retinue idea is interesting, but I am not yet convinced this applies.

Retinue idea does not apply in any way. Other than the fact that the Retinue and the Royal Court are both 40k concepts that start with "R", there is no relevance.

I think the royal court / retinue idea has more merit than mere alliteration.

both involve a character
both have limited unit selections they are allowed to join
both cannot voluntarily leave the unit during the game
the fact that EL works after the unit wipes, but RP does not is consistent.

Again, I'm not saying they are a retinue. Just that there's more to it than talking like a pirate.

I think the SW FAQ does hold some merit to the Topic Not Retinue,

But with the Most recent wording of the FAQ about Everliving and RC I lean twards you dont get to add back to the squad.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not to mention that the Retinue rules are, via context, Independent Characters to begin with, as the rule is found under the major heading "Independent Characters...."

edit: I thought of that argument early on, but dismissed it because:
Right, and Characters that lose the rest of the Retinue become - wait for it.

Keep waiting.

Independent Characters.

Yes, and? The whole point is they COUNT AS an UC while the retinue is alive (not an IC) and then become an IC again when the retinue dies.

You cannot be a retinue unless you are an IC at some point before the retinue is created

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot be a retinue unless you are an IC at some point before the retinue is created

Rules citation needed. The Retinue rules being under the IC section are not enough. As I said - they could be there because you turn into an IC when the unit is gone.

I see your point though - since there are only 2 types of characters in the BRB, upgrade and independent, it'd be hard for an upgrade character to count as an upgrade character.

Replace Cryptek with Sergeant and Warrior with Space Marine and those having trouble can more easily figure this thing out.

Fearspect wrote:Replace Cryptek with Sergeant and Warrior with Space Marine and those having trouble can more easily figure this thing out.

Except those aren't the same things. The closes similarity you can draw is the Space Wolf Pack Leaders.

Alright so as of right now it's almost 2-to-1 in favor of this tactic, with the rest being against or unsure (I was one of the unsure votes, hence why I created the thread).

So far I've seen vocalized the argument for - The unit isn't dead, it was a warrior unit (albeit with 1 lord or cryptek or what have you) so therefore is a legal target RAW for the Ghost ark.

What bugs me about the use of this rule, however, isn't lined out directly in the rules but rather a correlation. If the last warrior being removed from play, removes all RP tokens (and thus any chance for a reanimation protocol), shouldn't it then also prohibit the repair barge rule from doing essentially the same thing? Again, that argument isn't spelled out in RAW but it gives me pause before trying this combo on an opponent in-game.

tetrisphreak wrote:Alright so as of right now it's almost 2-to-1 in favor of this tactic, with the rest being against or unsure (I was one of the unsure votes, hence why I created the thread).

So far I've seen vocalized the argument for - The unit isn't dead, it was a warrior unit (albeit with 1 lord or cryptek or what have you) so therefore is a legal target RAW for the Ghost ark.

What bugs me about the use of this rule, however, isn't lined out directly in the rules but rather a correlation. If the last warrior being removed from play, removes all RP tokens (and thus any chance for a reanimation protocol), shouldn't it then also prohibit the repair barge rule from doing essentially the same thing? Again, that argument isn't spelled out in RAW but it gives me pause before trying this combo on an opponent in-game.

I think I see what you're getting at there. That the complete removal of all RP counters for a given unit of Warriors should signal the complete removal/destruction of that unit. Because of that the Barge ought not to be able to 'bring back' Warrior models.I don't think that the Cryptek and BRB rules support that though. By reading through the Cryptek unit entry it's obvious that he's not an Independent Character. It is also obvious that the Necron Warrior unit is never officially designated as a Retinue when joined by a Lord or Cryptek. In addition, a Cryptek model is not treated as an upgrade to a Necron unit. I don't think we have any choice but to accept that the Barge can generate d3 Warriors if all that's left in the unit is a Lord/Cryptek.

-Yad

Rigeld - the entire section is about ICs joining and leaving units. Context is sufficient.

Oh, and special characters are also a clas of character, making 3. For example Mephiston is neither an IC or a UC, but IS a SC

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rigeld - the entire section is about ICs joining and leaving units. Context is sufficient.

Oh, and special characters are also a clas of character, making 3. For example Mephiston is neither an IC or a UC, but IS a SC

Works for me. I was also noting that SC's aren't defined in the BRB - it just says that normally there are 2 classes of character, independent and upgrade.
No biggie though - I'm not going to argue that point any further.

Page 49

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 49

...
Stupid GW. Thanks for not mocking me too much.
(to be fair, 47 does say "Warhammer 40,000 armies normally include two types of characters:")

Its ok, its not the most obvious place, in the ICs section....