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Hi there,

Looking at starting WoC, can anyone tell me when their army book was last done, or if there are any rumours circulating about new models / rules etc? Don't want to buy everything now only to find I've wasted my cash in 2 months time!

Cheers

I have heard nothing about a new WOC book. They are fine and quite a solid book.

Cool beans, what'd you say their weaknesses are? High points cost and not many ranged units?

Guessing their strengths lay in their armour and stat lines,...?

Weakness? In WoC? I've never heard of such a thing. Basically the high armor *can* be a weakness but really there isn't any. They have amazing infantry, amazing cavalry, great upgrades and characters and access to the best lores in the game (Tzeech) with some of the cheapest (as in least expensive point wise) tricks - Lvl 4 Tz. sorcerer on disk with lore of death + purple suns = win every game.

I can't think of one weakness they have.

There are forsaken oh those are so...

Its a pretty solid book.

I have heard some forum junkies speculating about a new woc book but again who knows right.

We have Throgg and WS/I 5 core. Besides forsaken and spawn there is no glaring weakness to the book.

Aren't there a few rumours floating about saying that WoC will be updated in the autumn?

Didn't they also say Feb would be a 40k month? I take all long distance rumors with massive pinches of salt

Definitely hoping but hey we will see when it happens.

Thanks for all the replies, looks like a go-er then!

2000 Volts wrote: the high armor *can* be a weakness but really there isn't any.

How can high armour be a weakness? Because of a points restriction? Or does it affect movement?

2000 Volts wrote: Lvl 4 Tz. sorcerer on disk with lore of death + purple suns = win every game.

Sounds like fun, what's that lot do? I've yet to get the army book so can't look it up!

Cheers all

There are rumours of one coming out in August or July.

kitch102 wrote:Thanks for all the replies, looks like a go-er then!

2000 Volts wrote: the high armor *can* be a weakness but really there isn't any.

How can high armour be a weakness? Because of a points restriction? Or does it affect movement?

2000 Volts wrote: Lvl 4 Tz. sorcerer on disk with lore of death + purple suns = win every game.

Sounds like fun, what's that lot do? I've yet to get the army book so can't look it up!

Cheers all

High armor is a weakness if your opponent builds a list against it - that is - takes wizards of the Lore of Metal. Damage spells from Lore of Metal echew actual damage rolls and instead has you roll your opponents armor save. Example: If I toss a generic 2d6 hit magic missile at your Chaos knights - I would be rolling 1+ to wound them.

As for the lvl 4 sorcerer - unless you are playing in a tourney.... and that tourney allows it.... I wouldn't field such cheeze. It's generally considered bad form to pull that trick in a casual/friendly game and if you pulled that at our local club people would just not play with you.. or build similar terrible lists (Vs. me I'd bring 7-10 cannons and mortars in various forms).

I mean if you can find a pal to let you try it - then by all means take a look at just how beardy the tactic is (against everyone but elves and other WoC).

Just curious, how do you give a Lv 4 Tz on disk Purple Sun?
If you have the MoT then you can't choose the Lore of Death.
if you are unmarked then you can't have a disk.
Book of secrets is possible but only a 1-in-6 chance

It's with the Book of Secrets and yes I know it's a 1-in-6 chance but it happens and has happened to me.

What does that stuff mean? The buzz I'm getting down the interwebz hints at it being a world destroyer of a unit choice, but what does it actually mean and do on the table top?

why the hell is a lvl 4 on disc cheese? -edit, removed, different item thinking of-

Personally I dont think lore of Tz is amazing, the mark is.

Well WoC have massive powerful troops that maim people in close combat. As for the purple sun thing let me first say its a godly piece of cheesy evilnes.

Purple sun is the final spell in the lore of death (lore spell lists can be found in reference section of BRB) you put a template on the table (can double the template size by trying to roll a higher number) choose a direction for it to move and roll the artillery dice and triple the number. IE every turn it has the potential to move 30 inches in a given direction. FOr a lot of armies especialy Ogre Kingdoms lists this spell can easily mean a insta win and sometimes even board wipe.

Against horde armies it can be even more devastating as per the fact you can cause an enemies line to crumble from panics alone which horde armies can be very suceptable too especialy if you take out the general and BSB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An addendum to previous statement. The reason purple sun is so good and the tidbit I forgot to put in is that every model touched by template must make an initiative check and if they fail they autoaticaly are removed as casulties. Against Low innitiative armies this is just a death scentence and a half.

I know it's a lot to throw at a person who has very little knowledge of the game - All I an say is that WoC are a VERY Formidable army and easily top tier. To deal with it most armies would have to build specifically for WoC - and those builds tend to be worse vs. other armies.

So what I'm saying is I n the meta the likleyhood of your heavy armored troops facing a list designed to kill them (In my case I'd need to run 2 Hellstorm Rocket Batteries, mages from Lore of Metal, handgunners, Outriders and cannons) is unlikely since for me the same list would be generally poor against any of the three elf armies who all have low armor saves (and where my points would be better spent on mortars than hellstorms).

So a long story short - If WoC Are getting an update I imagine it would be to nerf them rather than buff them but I just can't see it happening.

2000 Volts wrote:I know it's a lot to throw at a person who has very little knowledge of the game - All I an say is that WoC are a VERY Formidable army and easily top tier. To deal with it most armies would have to build specifically for WoC - and those builds tend to be worse vs. other armies.

So what I'm saying is I n the meta the likleyhood of your heavy armored troops facing a list designed to kill them (In my case I'd need to run 2 Hellstorm Rocket Batteries, mages from Lore of Metal, handgunners, Outriders and cannons) is unlikely since for me the same list would be generally poor against any of the three elf armies who all have low armor saves (and where my points would be better spent on mortars than hellstorms).

So a long story short - If WoC Are getting an update I imagine it would be to nerf them rather than buff them but I just can't see it happening.

Basically, Woc have the potential to be highly abusable to the point the game will be 0 fun for your opponent *if* you try and cheese it out. The 8th edition has given some massive buffs to the army overall, such as giving the army's characters a newfound access to plentiful amounts of ward saves. (think of them as invulnerable saves in 40k) Combine this with the Mark of Tzeentch's natural ability to add +1 to an existing ward save, and WoC characters went from having a ward save only against ranged attacks, to now being able to take multiple sources of 3+ or 4+ ward saves!

Other big buffs to the army include the way combat works. Beforehand, you could use abilities like 'always strikes first' or else charge the warriors and cut down their front rank, thereby denying them the chance to fight back. But now with the 'step up' rule, you're deffinately going to eat a face-full of angry killiness in every combat!
Now combine that with abilities like super cheap Chaos Marauders who can take great weapons, get additional attacks through the mark of Khorne and fight in multiple ranks. And cost only a fraction of the pts of similar units in many other armies...

Again, this isn't the fault of the book itself - it was written for a different endition of the game, during a time when Daemons of Chaos were the ultiment cheddar-fest that made EVERYONE cry and Dark Elves, Vampires & High Elves were also rather naughty books as well.

If you want to build a WoC army, go for it! But keep in mind the following;
- All the 'mega spells', (typically the #6 spell in every lore), from the rulebook & most 7th ed armies are broken and will easily ruin games and lead to name-calling & hard feelings. Don't be TFG who lines up across a Lizardmen/Ogre/O&G/Dwarf/Undead army, grins stupidly and gafaws like an troll when you roll up 'purple sun' on your flying wizard.

- 1 unit of MoK marauders with great weapons is fine and dandy. Taking 2 such units that are more than 30 guys is being outright competitive, taking 3 such units at least 40 strong outside of tournaments is likely being a dick.

- By the same token, MoT is awsome this edition, but it's painfully obnoxious to take it everywhere and combine it with every possible ward save there is.

- If you ever bring a unit of 30+ Chosen w/MoT + halberds, Champion w/Favour of the Gods and support it with 2 Warshrines to ensure you get the 'stubborn + ward save' result on the Eye of the Gods chart and use it against someone just wanting a 'friendly game', you're most definately being TFG and I'd hope no one would ever play you again!
Okay, while this unit is pretty much a 'win-button', good players will counter it and likely laugh at you for being so one-dimensional in your list building! But especially outside of tournaments, it's something that most lists and players will struggle with because the unit really is that godly. Only the 'super spells' will really dent it, and even then the only ones you'd really fear are 'Dreaded 13th Spell' (skaven), 'Infernal Gateway' (WoC) and 'Final Transmutation' (lore of metal).
Just don't take this unit to friendly games, or at the very least, warn your opponent about what you've got and give them the option of facing a different list!


Hope this helps!

Experiment 626 wrote:- All the 'mega spells', (typically the #6 spell in every lore), from the rulebook & most 7th ed armies are broken and will easily ruin games and lead to name-calling & hard feelings. Don't be TFG who lines up across a Lizardmen/Ogre/O&G/Dwarf/Undead army, grins stupidly and gafaws like an troll when you roll up 'purple sun' on your flying wizard.!

Actually, with my slann, feel free to be that guy.

I will smile as I watch you roll all 6 dice in that desperate attempt to get it off while my Becalming Cogitation makes you discard the 6s. And when you do finally get that high power casting value and you have that brief moment of sheer joy....

I'll use a Dispel Scroll.

Is killing high point chars with a cannon on turn 1 considered cheese? Or not because it has a chance of going wrong(as do lots of things) Genuine question, just seems a bit like double standards to me.

[quote=Experiment 626...Dark Elves, Vampires & High Elves were also rather naughty books as well.

grishnaz wrote:Is killing high point chars with a cannon on turn 1 considered cheese? Or not because it has a chance of going wrong(as do lots of things) Genuine question, just seems a bit like double standards to me.

If my opponent lacks the tactics to bunker his character - then You bet I'm going to shoot every cannon I've got at them. But GW avoided the "cheese" factor by giving characters in a unit a 2+ ward save and characters within 3" of a unit a 4+ ward save vs. such attacks.

That said I did snipe a chaos sorcerer on a disk - but my opponent deployed that sorcerer alone and about 6" away from the closest block of infantry.

And if anyone tries to say there's a lot that can go wrong with a cannon - they're full of crap. Those of us who run artillery know more often than not cannons are time on target - we know to declare a distance 8" away for the best odds of hitting our target and will often run an engineer nearby.

but once again - if my opponent puts his character out on his own with nothing around, that character deserves to eat a cannon ball.

2000 Volts wrote:

grishnaz wrote:if my opponent puts his character out on his own with nothing around, that character deserves to eat a cannon ball.

well said

I find one of the only weaknesses of my WoC army to be skirmishers/fast cav. If they get in close they can just keep circling you & shooting and theres not much you can do about them other than re-direct your magic if you have a sorc free, who then becomes the new target if he's alone.

It's not a very big weakness, nor is it exploited often, but it's there.
Also as stated, expensive, low numbers of troops can expose you, but they more than hold their own in almost every situation.

Finally, Beware Lore of Metal, that will screw you over.

I've just recently bought a Hellcannon and I'm looking forward to seeing if its as nasty as I think it will be

2000 Volts wrote:It's with the Book of Secrets and yes I know it's a 1-in-6 chance but it happens and has happened to me.

Taking the Book of Secrets turns the character into a level 1 caster, even if he was a level 4 caster before hand, so...sort of a waste of points, there.

The only way you'll see a Lv 4 Tzeentch sorcerer on a disc throwing a Purple Sun around is if he takes the Third Eye mutation and steals the Purple Sun from an enemy wizard with the spell.

Are you sure? I'm looking at the army book and it makes no mention of that

Dont take the book on a lvl4.

Third eye of tz usually does that trick. You get all the benefits of tz (the +1 to cast).
Also most people are surprised when you hit em with their own spell.
Also tossing a thrown of vines on yourself and then giving your warriors a toughness boost.
Although its more of a threat if you put it on a lvl2 since he would cast and get a +3 bonus and this keeps your opponent guessing which spells you are going to use since you have a bigger selection of spells now and you could trick them into using all their dispel dice before you even use a big spell.

kitch102 wrote:Are you sure? I'm looking at the army book and it makes no mention of that

Check the FAQ.

Page 115 – Book of Secrets, second paragraph
Change to “Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard, who may use
the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death. He may
not attempt to channel. If he ever casts a spell with irresistible
force he must roll D6+1 rather than 2D6 on the Miscast
table.”

As for cannons killing on turn one well.
The shooter got lucky, The one receiving the cannon ball to the face wasnt lucky, if you dont want the guy to die protect him better.

As for skirmishers and fast cav I suggest a hellcannon. Oh look at all those little people trying to kill my war machine... wait a second I dont have war machines cannon go eat them and step on their bodies