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LoS, why don't I just model my dragons with heads a mile away from the base for breath attacks and flying units really close to the ground to get more cover saves? Are conversions tournament legal, or do you have to model it like GW says?

Because that would be what is commonly referred to as a dick move.

Actually it's a TFG move.
Wouldn't get many 2nd games with it and a TO might not be too happy with you as well.

You could do it but everyone would call you a dick. True god they would.

Just having this discussion from an honest point of view on another thread.

Compare these:





A wyvern is more or less the same size as a dragon and is firmly in the same category, yet the orc wyvern is low to the ground, low enough to hide behind cavalry. You would be lucky to hide the dark elf drgon behind an in game mountain. There arent even rules for being able to count a hill. which presumably is representative terrain allowing for how big hills are, as total concealment.

In our games we have a house rule, flamer templates from the base, not the mouth/nozzle only exceptions are for sponsons in 40k.
How could anyone seek to penalise excellent models like this and make them unplayable by stupid rules:



Imagine how the above piece will play in 8th, does it deserve to be retired from the game for lack of usability? (WIP picture so assume rider is present).
Would tournament organisers be prepared to say something like "awesome model, we want to see you field it, so measure templates from the base and if the rock is concealed the dragon is". Yes, or no?
If yes, could they also make rules up on the spot for diplodocus/dragon halfbreeds?


Privateer Press thought through this problem and fixed an official block area size for things to replace TLOS irregardless of the models pose, so if you mount your warjacks on scenic bases you are not penalised, neither will it profit you to huddle low to the ground for a tourney army.

Well he has a point comparing the wyvern and elf dragon...

This also applies to using older models just because they're tiny. I know in 40K people were using previous edition zoanthropes which are crazy-skinny and that was perfectly acceptable.

It would be a pity for well-converted and amazing looking models to be penalised by the TLOS rule.
However, deliberately modelling something to take advantage of that rule is chumpish at best, and outright unsportsmanly at worst. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Wow, GW made some really stupid rules then. Thanks for all your help.

LordHamshire wrote:Wow, GW made some really stupid rules then.

Ya think

Orlanth wrote:
Imagine how the above piece will play in 8th, does it deserve to be retired from the game for lack of usability?

Don't worry, it's already been forcefully retired by the nerfing of dragons in this edition.

That your dragon?

Or you making a comment about dragons in general. Big monsters are getting discounted, when High Elves get their book redone expect 50pts+ off all the big monsters.

And they STILL won't be worth taking

I haven't used many dragons, but i'm pretty sure they're all Large Targets. Which means they see over anything that isnt also a large target, and means they can also be shot by anything. I dont have my BRB in front of me to confirm this, but it's what i've seen be played. Check the rules.

Large Targets can only be obscured by other large targets and things like Buildings. Thats about the only benifit they get.

8th edition doesnt have that wording anymore. you get TLOS, thats it. (Page 10)

The only relevant rule:

"Large Targets do not get cover saves for obstacles." (Page 72)



I cant even find +1 to hit large targets with missile anymore.

TLOS is hamfisted, but monsters in general got better, its just wont make any difference unless you are attacking soft targets or are supporting infantry blocks.

Monsters are now getting:
- A discount
- Thunderstomp
- No +1 to hit for incoming missiles
- +1 save for the rider
- Inspiring presence

Monsters are now losing:
- Ability to break units alone
- Ability to flank charge with effect

IMO since cannons can hit you without seeing you (just have to see the first point ) I think modeling for advantage is worse the other way. Making models bigger.

For a while I was running a bsb on a 'chariot' with doom totem in a WoC. Except due to my mountain theme my chariot was a stonehorn and my banner itself was taller than the DE Dragon.

If Monsters got the ability to break ranks again or something they would become alot better.

Maybe make all monsters count as having 1 rank for the purposes of Steadfast and negating rank bonuses. So if a Monster was fighting 10 dudes in 5x2 formation the infantry wouldn't be Steadfast and if the monster was instead fighting only 5 dudes the monster would be steadfast.

What army is the fire-breathing dragon for?

I would say that the model is OK but do LOS to an area over the base similar to what GW pics of the models have it assembled.
For tourney play clear it with the TO but be prepared to have it excluded or treated with a different volume because, as was explained to me for my fairly shoddy DIY drop-pod (wrong warhammer I know but similar principle ) that there is a GW model for it and people expect a model for that unit to be a certain size as theirs will most likely be that size and you may gain an advantage even by accident.

Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, and Warriors of Chaos can field a dragon of some kind or another.

The actual model is a High Elf dragon.

And Vampire Counts, too. They can field Zombie Dragons.

and Wood Elves.

I’m really puzzled that anyone would come into a miniatures game, buy a really pricey dragon model, and then cut it up to model a really long neck just to get an advantage in game. It just strikes me as missing the point of a miniatures game really badly.

Unless I'm missing something, most people in this thread had a knee-jerk reaction and missed the point for the OP. Orlanth posted the relevant rule above:

Orlanth wrote:"Large Targets do not get cover saves for obstacles." (Page 72)

So it literally doesn't matter if you want to have your dragon flying a mile above the table, as far as shooting at it goes. With TLOS, if they're seeing a tiny bit of your dragon beyond other models (and the only dragon I can think of that couldn't be seen possibly is the ooooooooooooold metal high elf dragon that is basically flat on the ground) then they can shoot it, and it's not getting any modifiers to shooting from being behind other models/terrain, due to the rule quoted above.

So, that actually means that in this case, GW is encouraging modelling for creativity although more through a happy occurance of rules than anything. So go nuts with your dragon and don't worry about in-game effects!

As for the flame weapon, it'd be easy to let your opponent know you're doing it from the front of the base, if the dragon's modelled in the air... I'm not really sure if it's legal to measure it from the mouth of the dragon itself or not RAW, but common sense can prevail here in most actual settings (since we're in Tactics and not YMDC ).

So, the awesome dragon is not obsolete! Also, for those saying dragons are nerfed in 8th... that attitude is why it's actually worth taking one at times now since no one's prepared for / expecting them. And it's still a fething dragon... they can be surprisingly good!

Tell my Ironblasters that taking a Dragon is a good idea. I need to add another tick mark to their barrels

LordHamshire wrote:Wow, GW made some really stupid rules then. Thanks for all your help.

Nah, Games Workshop just doesn't cater to people who would actually take advantage of this. In fact the rulebook encourages you to avoid playing them.

If they want to go play their 'competitive' game they can do it by themselves or with other people as absurd as they are.

That is one of the oddities of GW policy. Warhammer (both incarnations) is very obviously considered a competitive game in many places, with cash-prize tournaments all over the world- heck, I bet some people make an appreciable chunk of their income off it. Yet GW still treats it like a beer-and-pretzels, hangin' out in a garage game. There's no doubt that's precisely how some people think of it, and play it- and I even encourage more people to think of it that way, as a game- but you'd think by now GW would at least hire or promote someone to 'head of tournament rulings' or something- they'd be given allowance to look through forums and read through all the Customer Service calls and create a 'Master FAQ' for whenever anyone calls with a question- and TOs could call and get a copy of the latest listings, including Tournament re-balances and such.

RiTides wrote:Unless I'm missing something, most people in this thread had a knee-jerk reaction and missed the point for the OP. Orlanth posted the relevant rule above:

Orlanth wrote:"Large Targets do not get cover saves for obstacles." (Page 72)

So it literally doesn't matter if you want to have your dragon flying a mile above the table, as far as shooting at it goes. With TLOS, if they're seeing a tiny bit of your dragon beyond other models (and the only dragon I can think of that couldn't be seen possibly is the ooooooooooooold metal high elf dragon that is basically flat on the ground) then they can shoot it, and it's not getting any modifiers to shooting from being behind other models/terrain, due to the rule quoted above.

Actually obstacles are a specific type of terrain, you get cover from other things as a monster but aren't allowed to hide behind a hedge (thank the gods for that lol).

sebster wrote:I’m really puzzled that anyone would come into a miniatures game, buy a really pricey dragon model, and then cut it up to model a really long neck just to get an advantage in game. It just strikes me as missing the point of a miniatures game really badly.

Miniature Game.

miniature and Game.

Game...

Gamer.

Not hobbyists.

HoverBoy wrote:

RiTides wrote:Unless I'm missing something, most people in this thread had a knee-jerk reaction and missed the point for the OP. Orlanth posted the relevant rule above:

Orlanth wrote:"Large Targets do not get cover saves for obstacles." (Page 72)

So it literally doesn't matter if you want to have your dragon flying a mile above the table, as far as shooting at it goes. With TLOS, if they're seeing a tiny bit of your dragon beyond other models (and the only dragon I can think of that couldn't be seen possibly is the ooooooooooooold metal high elf dragon that is basically flat on the ground) then they can shoot it, and it's not getting any modifiers to shooting from being behind other models/terrain, due to the rule quoted above.

Actually obstacles are a specific type of terrain, you get cover from other things as a monster but aren't allowed to hide behind a hedge (thank the gods for that lol).

Furthermore some poses prevent dragons from hiding behind hills.
TLOS was/is a horrendous brainfart in 40K and Warhammer both.