Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The new Faq for cronies is here http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170012a_Necron_FAQ_Version_2_0_January_2012.pdf.

It says
"Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving
onto the board when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes"


Does this mean squads with veils can start the game in reserve and deep strike onto the field? If so can they use the Nemesor's ability and do it on my opponents turn?

Considering the Veil of Darkness specifically mentions during your movement phase is when it's used, I would say that disallows them to use it with Zahndrekh's special rule.

Here's the way I see it.

Nemesor's rule says that you can bring any number of units that are able to deep strike in from reserve in the enemy turn after any enemy unit has arrived.

Veil of Darkness used to say the unit is placed onto the tabletop using the deep strike rules. The new Codex however simply says the unit is removed and immediately deep strikes back onto the battlefield.

So Veil of darkness gives the unit that the Cryptek is joined to the ability to deep strike onto the battlefield.

The FAQ says that deep strike can be used when a unit arrives from reserve.

So I believe that a unit with veil of darkness that is in reserve, in an army where Nemesor is on the battlefield, can deep strike in from reserve in the enemy turn as per Nemesor's rule.

It seem to satisfy all requirements.

Good tactic!

Yep, thats how I see it as well.

Useful errata....

time wizard wrote:Here's the way I see it.

Nemesor's rule says that you can bring any number of units that are able to deep strike in from reserve in the enemy turn after any enemy unit has arrived.

Veil of Darkness used to say the unit is placed onto the tabletop using the deep strike rules. The new Codex however simply says the unit is removed and immediately deep strikes back onto the battlefield.

So Veil of darkness gives the unit that the Cryptek is joined to the ability to deep strike onto the battlefield.

The FAQ says that deep strike can be used when a unit arrives from reserve.

So I believe that a unit with veil of darkness that is in reserve, in an army where Nemesor is on the battlefield, can deep strike in from reserve in the enemy turn as per Nemesor's rule.

It seem to satisfy all requirements.

Good tactic!

I agree. Nemesor's ability specficly overrides tetrisphreak's argument that you are told to use the VoD in your movement phase.

I'd have to re-read the rules, but from memory, it seems like VoD gives the unit the ability to move/enter via deep strike, but does not actually give the deep strike ability. I'm not sure it satisfies Nemesor's conditions.

The rule says the unit and Cryptek are removed and then "...immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield."

That was my point. It doesn't say comes back by deep strike rules or by using deep strike rules, it says they deep strike.
That wording would appear to give the unit the deep strike ability.

Assuming the VoD does grant the unit deep strike then causes them to deep strike, (rather than just cause them to deep strike) there still seems to be the necessity of choosing to forgo normal movement to gain and activate deep strike. Saying that I can do something in the next turn's movement phase does not mean I have already done it and can thus benefit now.

Yes, but the FAQ does say that a unit with VOD can deep strike onto the board instead of moving normally.

So the unit need not be on the board to use the Veil.

The rules for Phased Reinforcements and Ethereal Interception are both worded very similarly

So based on what seems to be the consensus above you can do the same thing with Ethereal Interception without need of Zandrekh?

Is that what I am to understand? If not please explain.

Also consider:

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model
from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike
special rule for it to do so

time wizard wrote:So the unit need not be on the board to use the Veil.

Yes, I thought that was quite a surprise given the usual precedent of not using wargear till on the table. Doesn't matter for my current question.

Even if I conceed that the unit gains deep strike insted of doing something via the deep strike rules, which the faq language above seems to contend,I still see no special permission to gain deep strike outside of my movement phase.

Icemyn wrote:
Also consider:

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model
from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike
special rule for it to do so

That's because the Deathmarks have the Deep Strike special rule. If a lord joined them from a royal court, the lord would not have that rule so the deathmarks would not be able to deep strike..
VoD is different in that it allows the cryptek and his unit to deep strike.

foolishmortal wrote: Even if I conceed that the unit gains deep strike insted of doing something via the deep strike rules, which the faq language above seems to contend,I still see no special permission to gain deep strike outside of my movement phase.

It is not gaining deep strike outside of the movement phase.

The unit has the ability to deep strike due to the cryprek with VoD joining them.
The FAQ gives units with VoD permission to use it when arriving from reserve.
If Nemesor is on the battlefield units with the deep strike ability in reserve can come on during the enemy's movement phase but only after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve.

If the enemy has no units in reserve, or fails to bring any unit on from reserve, then Nemesor's special rule cannot be used and no Necron units with deep strike in reserve can enter play.

I think your missing the part of the FAQ where
Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model
from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike
special rule for it to do so

Is a Cryptek part of a Royal Court? Yes.
Can he Deepstrike Normally? No.

The Veil only allows you to deepstrike instead of moving that is it. The FAQ was clearly intended to stop Ethereal Interception which also stops Phased Reinforcements.

This is overrdden by the more specific case of a cryptek with Veil.

Specific vs General

Yes, the veil gives me the specific choice, during my movement phase, not my opponent's, to deep strike the unit with the veil instead of their normal movement.

..which is then SPECIFICALLY overridden by Nemesor

It's a whole chain of specific over general

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is overrdden by the more specific case of a cryptek with Veil.

Specific vs General

Just to be clear are you saying a Deathmark unit with a veil can use ethereal Interception?

Icemyn wrote:
Just to be clear are you saying a Deathmark unit with a veil can use ethereal Interception?

A deathmark unit has ethereal interception, so it doesn't need VoD.

If a lord joined the deathmark unit, it would lose deep strike and so would lose ethereal interception.

Same as if a cryptek joined the deathmark unit, it would lose ethereal interception.

But if the cryptek had a veil, it would have th edeep strike rule, so the deathmark unit could once again use ethereal interception.

nosferatu1001 wrote:..which is then SPECIFICALLY overridden by Nemesor

It's a whole chain of specific over general

Interesting. I see your argument more clearly now. I do still disagree, but I can see your line of thought.

Nemesor's ability applies to "units in reserve that are able to deep strike". You see unit's with a Veil or Ghostwalk Mantle as falling in that catatgory.

I believe they are not always able to deep strike. Rather, they are only able to deep strike if the player makes a choice to forgo the unit's normal movement and deep strike instead. This choice is able to be made during that player's movement phase, not his opponent's

time wizard wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Just to be clear are you saying a Deathmark unit with a veil can use ethereal Interception?

A deathmark unit has ethereal interception, so it doesn't need VoD.

If a lord joined the deathmark unit, it would lose deep strike and so would lose ethereal interception.

Same as if a cryptek joined the deathmark unit, it would lose ethereal interception.

But if the cryptek had a veil, it would have th edeep strike rule, so the deathmark unit could once again use ethereal interception.

This is where we disagree. I dont believe the cryptek w/ veil ever confers the deep strike rule, just the ability to deep strike instead of moving normally.
And at no point during EI or PR are you moving normally.

Icemyn wrote:
This is where we disagree. I dont believe the cryptek w/ veil ever confers the deep strike rule, just the ability to deep strike instead of moving normally.

Well there is this from the Necron FAQ:

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving
onto the board when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes.

And the VoD rule from page 84 of the Necron Codex says the veil allows the cryptek and his unit to be removed from the tabletop and immediately deep strike back.
This is not "to be placed on the table by deep strike rules", or "be placed via deep strike rules", but instead "to deep strike back".

Icemyn wrote:And at no point during EI or PR are you moving normally.

? I wasn't talking about either EL or PR (RP?). Don't know where that came from.

Ethereal Interception EI. PR Phased Reinforcements. I got lazy. sorry for that.

The FAQ deals with arriving from Regular reserves not DS reserves. The FAQ just before that basically reads you cannot EI with a veil cryptek. The FAQ you have referenced allows you to DS on with the Veil, instead of walking on.

If it wasnt for the second FAQ you wouldnt be able to veil on from Normal reserves. As you mentioned the veil reads: Is removed from play and placed back onto the table top via the deep strike rules.
The unit would have to be on the table to begin with to use the veil based on its wording, the FAQ moves around this.

Again I see nothing that gives the models in the squad DS, and as the FAQ clearly tells you, no DS special rule no DS.

Sorry about the EI and PR confusion!

I see your point that there is an unanswered question as to whether haveing the VoD give the unit the Deep Strike special rule.

But as I had said, in an earlier edition, it said that VoD placed the unit back on the table "using the deep strike rules".

Even the Space Marine librarian's gate of infinity puts the unit back on the table "using the deep strike rules".

But units with VoD can deep strike back on the board and can even deep strike in from reserve. This is what makes them have the deep strike special rule IMO.

time wizard wrote:But units with VoD can deep strike back on the board and can even deep strike in from reserve. This is what makes them have the deep strike special rule IMO.

I agree that this new faq language is special. I did not expect it. Here's how special it is.

A Unit with a Veil in normal reserves, if successfully rolled for (4+ on turn 2, etc) can walk on the board or deep strike instead. That is a special and odd case of the use of wargear before being on the board. It does not, however, grant the unit the deep strike ability at other times of the game. If there was a model with the ability "destroy all enemy models within 6" with deep strike" I believe it would kill the deathmarks and not the veil-tek.

When a cryptek arrives from reserves it is placed just outside the table edge and then it moves on the table. That move is substituted with a deep strike. You can use the VoD as its requirements are met. VoD doesn't add the Deep Strike rule to the cryptek and so it cannot be held in deep strike reserves.

This makes me think of the "Is the ruler on the table?" picture that kirsanth sent me earlier.



Is a unit arriving from reserves on the table before it starts to move?

My point of view is that BRB stating that the models are placed just beyond the table edge is a convention on how to handle the situation. They are not on the table in the literal version but when the unit arrives from reserves it becomes part of the game as if it were on the table.

I posted the picture as "food for thought" and amusement value, not trying to make any particular argument.

I just found it to be very odd that GW ruled you could use the VoD from reserve.

Hmm, I got too literal then. Anyway the pic is a nice physics puzzle!

Nah, it's just that the hammer/ruler system has an asymmetric center of mass. It's under the table, not over the edge, hence the system sits instead of tumbling off