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I'm looking for page #'s from rulebooks and GW rulings.

I'm trying to collect evidence both FOR and AGAINST the following statement.

"In 40k, rules as written (Including official GW errata, clarifications, faq answers, and amendments) the terms 'destroyed' and 'wiped out' mean the same thing.

AGAINST Example: p40 BRB (5th) 1st bullet point. This is the first mention in the core rules of 'destroyed' in a hard rules context. It implies a special state of dead-ness that is not easily reversible.

FOR Example: p45 BRB (5th) "they will make further fall back moves instead of moving normally, until the unit reqroups, is destroyed or leaves the table." This list of possibilities implies an equivalence between destroyed and wiped out since there is no mention of wiped out, and dying by being shot at is a common enough occurrence it ought to be mentioned.

Opinions without rules or rulings citations, are of course welcome. I won't be focusing on them, but far be it from me to try and stop you freely expressing yourself on the internet.


Edit: I will put FOR, AGAINST, and INDETERMINATE reference list here. If it gets too big, I will re-organize with spoiler drop down code.

Hypothesis
"In 40k, rules as written (Including official GW errata, clarifications, faq answers, and amendments) the terms 'destroyed' and 'wiped out' mean the same thing.

AGAINST
A1 - p40 BRB (5th) 1st bullet point. This is the first mention in the core rules of 'destroyed' in a hard rules context. It implies a special state of dead-ness that is not easily reversible.

FOR
F1 - p45 BRB (5th) "they will make further fall back moves instead of moving normally, until the unit reqroups, is destroyed or leaves the table." This list of possibilities implies an equivalence between destroyed and wiped out since there is no mention of 'wiped out' or 'removed as casualties', and dying by being shot at is a common enough occurrence it ought to be mentioned.

F2 - p91 BRB (5th) - Annihilation box - 'destroyed' is used in a functionally similar manner to 'wiped out'. A unit might be removed from the board as casualties completely due to a shooting action.

F3 - p39 BRB (5th) - Determine Assault Results - third paragraph - 'destroys' is used in a functionally similar manner to 'wipes out'. A unit might be removed from the board as casualties completely due to assault wounds.

F4 - p40 BRB (5th) - Consolidation - 1st sentence - 'destroyed' is used in a functionally similar manner to 'wiped out'. A unit might be removed from the board as casualties completely due to assault wounds.

INDETERMINATE

I1 - p41 BRB (5th) last sentence of Assault Rules "...can only sweeping advance if all of the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight." Seems to use 'wiped out' to mean 'completely removed from the table' but unclear on from what cause, could be removed from play due to a special rule or could have been removed as casualties.

I2 - Page 90 BRB (5th) - 'Wipeout!' is defined as a default victory condition meaning your opponent has "no units left on the table"

I3 - p258 BRB (5th) - under Objective, wipe out is roughly equated to Wipeout (very similar language) and directly related to the victory conditions in Annihilation missions.

I4 - p263 BRB (5th) - Veteran Abilities, Gaining Experience - "...must not have been wiped out at the end of the game" Seems to use 'wiped out' to mean 'completely removed from the table' but unclear on from what cause, could be removed from play due to a special rule or could have been removed as casualties.

I5 - p41 BRB (5th) - Assault results - last sentence left column. Not yet sure what, if anything this implies. Nothing explicit.

I6 - p50 BRB (5th) - Perils of the Warp - 2nd and 3rd sentence give an interesting ambiguity of "destroy". I am calling this INDETERMINATE because the 2nd sentence looks fluffy, not crunchy.

I7 - p76 BRB (5th) - Swarms definition - gives an interesting ambiguity of "destroy". I am calling this INDETERMINATE because the entry looks fluffy, not crunchy

I8 - p90 BRB (5th) - Ending the game - 2nd paragraph. Not yet sure what, if anything this implies. Nothing explicit.

'Wipeout!' is on Page 90 (There is not anything in the brb that defines what 'wiped out' is)

Destroyed is on page 67 on the vehicle chart. (Though it is worth noting that they use the normal English definition for 'destroyed' in the Deep Strike Mishap chart)

So there is only the definition for destroyed in regards to vehicles and the brb does not define wiped out.

I will post some examples, edited into my OP to give a better idea what I am looking for. Just mentioning one or both of the terms is not enough. It must shed some light on the definition, either explicitly, or through the use of logic.

You will not find definitions for 'destroyed' and 'wiped out' they way you are thinking.

They mean the same thing, because the English language says they mean about the same thing.

the BRB does not define 'wiped out' and only defines 'destroyed' in the context of vehicle damage.

Again, I'm not looking for a definition in a GW product.

*Although, if we have missed one and you know it, dear god please post the reference*

I am looking for information from which to build a definition. Please see my examples in my OP for an idea of what I am searching for.

DR - tjhey *dont* mean the same thing. That's the point. Look up the definition of the two terms (or go into the mega thread and despair) and note that they arent even synonyms of eachother

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - tjhey *dont* mean the same thing. That's the point. Look up the definition of the two terms (or go into the mega thread and despair) and note that they arent even synonyms of eachother

well... I agree that destroy is used in a rather permanent set of contexts in the BRB, and that wiped out seems to be used in a mostly different set of contexts. People have said they proved it and I was firmly convinced myself. But I just re-read almost all 22 pages of that thread. It was argued, quite convincingly, that wiped out does not equal destroyed. Heck, at some points, I was the one arguing it. But I do not see where it was proven.

When I edited my OP to include examples, I actually had a hard time finding and choosing one that wasn't based opinion, but on GW text. And even that one is shakey. I do hope some one finds a stronger one so that I can include it.

To all the TOs out there - I know that you are a TO and that you expect others to accept your word on 40k rulings. And I would, at an event that you were a TO. But this is a place for thoughtful debate. "Because I said so" is not very convincing. It is sometimes necessary from a TO or a Parent. Those relationships are not involved here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - tjhey *dont* mean the same thing. That's the point. Look up the definition of the two terms (or go into the mega thread and despair) and note that they arent even synonyms of eachother

http://www.synonym.com/definition/wipe%20out/
Overview of noun wipe_out

The noun wipeout has 2 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)
1. destruction, demolition, wipeout

(an event (or the result of an event) that completely destroys something)

http://thesaurus.com/browse/wipe+out
Main Entry:
wipe out  [wahyp-out] Show IPA
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: destroy; get rid of
Synonyms: X-out, abate, abolish, annihilate, black out, blot out, cancel, decimate, delete, efface, eliminate, eradicate, erase, expunge, exterminate, extinguish, extirpate, kill, massacre, obliterate, remove, root out, slaughter, slay, uproot

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wipe+out
Phrasal Verb:
wipe out
1. To destroy or be destroyed completely.
2. Slang To murder.
3. Sports To lose one's balance and fall, as when skiing or surfing.

I really don't care about dictionary definitions. As I said, you are welcome to post anything within the rules of dakka and basic human decency, but this is not what I am seeking.

I understand that, but saying that the wipe out is not a synonym or is not defined as destroy/destruction is just wrong. I just cleared that up.

For the purposes of this post, I invite you to ignore anything that is not a GW rule or ruling reference. I cannot totally ignore it, because I am trying to collate information. In this small way, let me take this burden off your shoulders

copper, as was pointed out in the super-thread (and other threads where definitions have been posted), using the American definition for something that comes from England doesn't work. If you look at the British definitions, you will see that (not surprisingly) nos is right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar codex, page 54: Phoenix Lord special rules:
[b]Eternal Warrior[/b}: Phoenix Lords can never truly be destroyed, and hence are immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule.

How about the Oxford's dictionary?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/wipeout?q=wipeout
Pronunciation: /ˈwʌɪpaʊt/
noun
informal

1an instance of being destroyed or overwhelmingly defeated: a nuclear wipeout
the obliteration of one radio signal by another.

2a fall from a surfboard.

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/wipeout
wipeout
noun
wipeout pronunciation English ˈwaɪpaʊt wipeout pronunciation American ˈwaɪpaʊt
(informal)

1 [uncountable, countable] complete destruction, failure or defeatThe party faces virtual wipeout in the election.a 5-0 wipeout2 [countable] a fall from a surfboard

OK now?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and there is the Macmillan dictionary. Also British.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/wipe-out
wipe out
- definition

destroy something
kill someone
clean inside something
make someone tired
fall when riding something

Copper - did you even read the first web page you were quoting?

Hint: Look at the right hand side, near the top. Note that this is giving you "World English" as a definition. Its why I picked the Cambridge dictionary, as OED is not online for free, as that gives British English definitions.

Additinally - you do realise to prove that they are equivalent you need to show both directions? The entire point is that wipeout can be included in the super set "destroy", but destroy isnt wipeout

Destroy is "fruit", wipe out is "apple"

I knew something was fishy there, thinks for finding that nos.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Additinally - you do realise to prove that they are equivalent you need to show both directions? The entire point is that wipeout can be included in the super set "destroy", but destroy isnt wipeout

Destroy is "fruit", wipe out is "apple"

Set theory in fun, but I'm trying to stay focused on GW 40k language. Are there uses of "destroyed" or "wiped out" where it would be inappropriate to switch the terms?

Weapon Wiped Out.

Im sorry but this game isnt so complicated as to require a freaking English major to play. Is it really so hard to add models, table, dice, and opponent/s into bowl, mix, sprinkle with common sense and bake at 350 degrees for a delicious batch of fun?

Its this kind of nitpicking that tempts me to simply insult all those involved with harsh words and much fist waving, and leave online communing forever. If not for the generally awesome people on this site, and the sweeet p&m section, I probably would have by now *gets off

Ok can someone explain to me why are we having this arguement? is it about some rule like the necron resurection?

Are we trying to argue that if something is wiped out/ or destoryed some other rules will not allow it to get back up?

say the SOB saint, GK guy, necrons.

Is this about that?

rigeld2 wrote:Weapon Wiped Out.

I'm assuming this is in response to my "Are there uses of "destroyed" or "wiped out" where it would be inappropriate to switch the terms?"

I agree that 'Weapon Wiped Out' sounds odd. It is not familiar, and sounds a little silly, but that doesn't make it wrong. Rules-wise, what is wrong about saying a weapon is wiped out?

A weapon is removed from the table and is no longer usable by the vehicle. A model is removed from the table and no longer usable by the unit. GW suggests not gluing your weapons to your vehicles so you can do just that. Rules-wise what is wrong with saying that a weapon is wiped out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Its this kind of nitpicking that tempts me to simply insult all those involved with harsh words and much fist waving, and leave online communing forever. If not for the generally awesome people on this site, and the sweeet p&m section, I probably would have by now *gets off

If you loved roller coasters, but hated water rides, would you go to an amusement park, spend half the day riding water rides and then complain about hating water rides and considering never coming back to the amusement park? No, you'd go, ride the roller coasters all day and have a great time unless what you actually enjoyed was riding roller coasters and complaining about water rides.

Dakka is a great big place. Do as you like within the community guidelines. Have fun, but please let me have mine too.

And the reason we are nitpicking is because if we didn't we wouldn't have the 20-something page super-thread. That and arguing semantics is fun
Edited to add: So close to the big 3-0...

Too bad the leak might be fake - it has a specific caveat for this very argument.

The entire premise of this thread is wrong.

You are starting with your understand of how the game should be played.

Then you're interpreting the wording to fit your understanding.

Then you're making up definitions for words (that are not redefined by the rulebook) to fit your understanding of how you think the game should be played.

This is wrong and backwards.

copper.talos has the right idea.

1. Start with the every day common meaning of words and apply them to the rules.
Someone with a common English vocabulary (both British and American) understands that "wiped out" and "destroyed" mean exactly the same thing.
2. Interpret the rules using this common definition of the language - English.
If you're not sure what that is - look it up in a dictionary.
3. If the rulebook redefines a word as having a separate meaning in the context of the game, by all means use that definition instead!
In this case "wiped out" is not defined by the rulebook as having any other meaning. So use it like the word would be normally used.

Your only argument for redefining these words are your preconceived idea of how the game should be played. Your interpretation of these rules based on this is clearly wrong.

I agree completely. It's obvious that some try to impose their own views and ignore anything that doesn't fit. Nos even discovered that tiny bit on the oxford dictionary that said "world engilsh" (good find btw) and didn't notice at all that the MacMillan dictionary definition of the wipe out is strictly british. It's right there on the link itself

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/wipe-out

so the definition of wipe out is destroy in world, british english and us english. No chance of mixing up. Except maybe Ward has australian roots. Maybe we should look into that too?

foolishmortal wrote:I'm trying to collect evidence both FOR and AGAINST the following statement.

"In 40k, rules as written (Including official GW errata, clarifications, faq answers, and amendments) the terms 'destroyed' and 'wiped out' mean the same thing.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The entire premise of this thread is wrong.

How could my entire premise possibly be wrong? I made a statement, then announced my intention to look at GW language for evidence both FOR and AGAINST it. I then quickly realized that there was also a 3rd category of INDETERMINATE. The shakiest premise I am operating on is that it is possible to compare two things and label one of them them as for, against, or indeterminate of the other.

Nemesor - so, people are making up definitions now?

Guess you missed the links. I am sorry that these are proving you wrong, but live with it. Or are you calling everyone here a liar, including copper?

Copper - notice how I pointed out the flaw in one source, and then pointed out the flaw in your conclusion?

Prove BOTH sides otherwise you have not proven equivalence. This is a really basic concept in mathematics, and currently you are making one of your (as in literally YOUR) most common fallacies posting here - A -> B does not mean B-> A

Oh, and copper - note I posted the Cambridge dictionary definition, which does not list destroy? So you are currently at 1 - 1

Hardly conclusive, to anyone thinking about this rationally....

foolishmortal wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:I'm trying to collect evidence both FOR and AGAINST the following statement.

"In 40k, rules as written (Including official GW errata, clarifications, faq answers, and amendments) the terms 'destroyed' and 'wiped out' mean the same thing.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The entire premise of this thread is wrong.

How could my entire premise possibly be wrong? I made a statement, then announced my intention to look at GW language for evidence both FOR and AGAINST it. I then quickly realized that there was also a 3rd category of INDETERMINATE. The shakiest premise I am operating on is that it is possible to compare two things and label one of them them as for, against, or indeterminate of the other.

I mean the premiss of determining the definition of the words in a rule by how you think the rule should be interpreted is wrong. You can skip all your page number and quotes and just jump to the part where "wiped out" is given a new meaning that is separate from the dictionary definition.

You can't say "by how its used in the rules" because that "how its used" is determined by your definition of "wiped out". It's a bit of a catch 22.

Premiss 1 "wiped out" in British, American, and World English mean the same thing as destroyed.

Premiss 2 "wiped out" is never redefined in the rules to have any meaning other than "destroyed".

Conclusion: In the rules "wiped out" and "destroyed" are the same.

Premise 0 (the null hypothesis, you know) : wiped and destroyed do not have the exact same meaning in British English

So now prove P1 and P2, as required by really basic scientific theory. We've proven P0 so far...

rigeld2 wrote:Weapon Wiped Out.

The grammar is incorrect in this case. However you could correctly say "The weapon was wiped out".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll just leave this here.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/destroy

Here you go. Notice at the top of the page it says Synonyms. Notice under the main entry for Destroy, third from the last item: "wipe out".

Destroy is synonymous with Wipe out.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/wipe+out

Wipe out is synonymous with Destroy.

I found the answer I was looking for out of this thread, but I am still somewhat amazed by people's ... contributions.