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I'm starting to get a feeling on a certain issue, and I'm wondering if other people feel the same way. If not, that's fine, and I'll shut up, but I'd still just like to know.

It seems to me like every other post in the P&M Showcase is some commission painter using Dakka to shill his work for him. I don't mind seeing commission painters posting their work, but I'd definitely like to know it ahead of time. When I go to someone's thread expecting to see a piece they're looking for honest critique on, it's annoying to find a different sort of post altogether. People who are painting for money aren't looking for my criticism or suggestions, all they want is everyone to go 'ooh,' 'aah,' and 'here's some money!' When I come to a thread thinking it's from a regular painter, and find some commission painter, I feel like some street hustler is trying to run a con job on me.

It's not a big deal really, I just wish the posters would announce up front that it's a commission piece. Otherwise, it seems like it's designed to get me as the reader to go 'oh, look, this model is awesome, it's amazing, how does someone get something this good, and oh look, this guy will paint MY models for me for a few bucks!' It seems incrediblly dishonest, and not what Dakka is about.

If everyone disagrees with me, I'm perfectly willing to just zip and sit back down, but I'd like to know what everyone thinks.

Well to be honest, when I post in showcase thread I'm not looking for criticism either... I consider the model done, and at that point I'm just looking for the same things as a commission painter, minus the "give me money" part, unless they really want to.

If its in the painting and modeling or blogs thread, then yea, thats where I go looking for critiques.

I dont see a problem. Most threads do have the title commision work or "BlueMini's commison company latest work"

Honestly Jim, I'm with you on this one. It's slightly irksome trying to figure out which ones are projects they are working on for themselves, and which are just cash projects. Makes me wish we had some kind of "collected commission" setup where the stuff could be posted without being in the main Showcase.

It does bother me. I look at painting and modelling for two reasons. One is to add to my collection of saved conversion pictures for when i need inspiration (they have creator credit, of course) and the other reason is to see the critique given to models to try improve my own skills by taking lessons from others. Commission work doesnt really give either of these, and never gives the important one (learning).

It generally doesn't bother me if the person is up front, the showcase is just that, a showcase.

But there is a thread about some Custodes that I've never been clear on who has paid for and built, who painted it and who is posting the pictures. Obviously there was some confusion because the person was congratulated by sevveral before the commission aspect was clarified. But I'm still not clear on other aspects and my query never seemed to get a reply. Maybe I just missed the answer.

I don't mean that I have a problem with commission work, of course. That's all well and good, and I love seeing a good commission, if I know that ahead of time I have no problem with people who announce that the work is a commission or have So-and-So Studios labels on their pictures, anything to clue me in. My issue only comes in when I'm all amazed at the quality and get to the bottom of the page only to be surprised by a So-and-So Studios banner in the person's signature. It smacks of deceit.

Obsidian Raven wrote:It does bother me. I look at painting and modelling for two reasons. One is to add to my collection of saved conversion pictures for when i need inspiration (they have creator credit, of course) and the other reason is to see the critique given to models to try improve my own skills by taking lessons from others. Commission work doesnt really give either of these, and never gives the important one (learning).

Well, I don't see anything stopping you from getting inspiration from a commissioned model tbh, it can still be a brilliant conversion can't it, regardless of being for that persons own army or for someone elses? And the opportunity to learn from others work is always present by asking for tips from the person that painted it?

(Almost) Everything I paint is commission. I very rarely get time or indeed motivation to paint something for myself. :-(

I also appreciate feedback and critique, no matter where I post a piece, or in what state I think it's in. This is a learning game, and someone who thinks they know it all is just setting themselves up for a fall. Similarly, if someone wants to know how or why something was done in a particular way, all they have to do is ask.

And the [Commission] tag goes a long way to ensuring nobody's surprised.

This said, I approach every commission as a piece for myself. If I wouldn't be happy with it on the table, it doesn't go to a client. Anyone working under my banner (so to speak and as closest to a plug as I'll come in this post) thinks in a similar way. Good stuff, done with care and involvement.

I don't really mind stores and other people that do commissions posting their work. I look through the gallery and the painted area for inspiration.


However, I don't bother with people that just post lnks to their blogs. I'm not about to jump to some random site. I want to see stuff here. That's why I'm, you know, here. At least post a picture or two with your blog link.

kronk wrote:However, I don't bother with people that just post lnks to their blogs. I'm not about to jump to some random site. I want to see stuff here. That's why I'm, you know, here. At least post a picture or two with your blog link.

I'll second the hell out of this.

"Click on awesome thread title"

"See: Article is on my SUPERAWESOME BLOG"

"Make sadface"

"Close Tab"

Jimsolo wrote: My issue only comes in when I'm all amazed at the quality and get to the bottom of the page only to be surprised by a So-and-So Studios banner in the person's signature. It smacks of deceit.

Is the miniature any less awesome because they painted it for someone else than it would be if they painted it for themselves?

The primary purpose of the modelling forum is for people to show off what they are working on, and to check out what other people are working on. The model looks the same whether it is painted for sale or painted for personal use.

Painting and Modeling Showcase is all about showing off great painted models right? What difference does it make if the pictures are from a commission painter who also links his information for work or somebody painting something for their own collection? Either way, we're seeing beautifully painted figures on display.

If you have a problem with seeing information relating to a commission painter's work, just look at the pictures and enjoy.

insaniak wrote:

Jimsolo wrote: My issue only comes in when I'm all amazed at the quality and get to the bottom of the page only to be surprised by a So-and-So Studios banner in the person's signature. It smacks of deceit.

Is the miniature any less awesome because they painted it for someone else than it would be if they painted it for themselves?

The primary purpose of the modelling forum is for people to show off what they are working on, and to check out what other people are working on. The model looks the same whether it is painted for sale or painted for personal use.

Insaniak, yes, I agree. I think, though, the issue is when there is sort of an invisible line crossed between, "Hey, look at this because it is cool" and "Hey, look at this because it is advertising, and your comments are endorsements of a product for sale".

To me it is one thing if the second scenario is all on the up-and-up, but it feels... shady... when there is a false pretense. False pretense being that this is just cool for the sake of cool, when in reality, there is an underlying motivation.

It makes me feel... icky. Sure. Flog your products, but be up front about it. I am much too free with my praise in the assumption that it is someone like me, who is just a hobbiest wanting to connect and show my work to other hobbiests.

It is kinda like being invited to a party by a friend, just to find out the party was all a front to sell kitchen products. Do you still get to hang out and eat stuff? Sure. But is it really a party of friends by friends. No. Its a business transaction.

Emerett wrote:

kronk wrote:However, I don't bother with people that just post lnks to their blogs. I'm not about to jump to some random site. I want to see stuff here. That's why I'm, you know, here. At least post a picture or two with your blog link.

I'll second the hell out of this.

"Click on awesome thread title"

"See: Article is on my SUPERAWESOME BLOG"

"Make sadface"

"Close Tab"

I'll third it. Very lame. I think the thread title should have to have a tag that says "[Blog Link]" or be locked tbh...

Gymnogyps wrote:To me it is one thing if the second scenario is all on the up-and-up, but it feels... shady... when there is a false pretense. False pretense being that this is just cool for the sake of cool, when in reality, there is an underlying motivation.

Can you give an example of a post that you see as fitting this 'shady' behaviour?

Because I'm not seeing it. What you seem to be objecting to is people trying to drum up business by posting pictures without being clear upfront that these pictures are advertising their business... which, frankly, sounds fairly counter-productive from a business point of view. How are they promoting themselves if people don't realise that they are a business because they're not shouting about it from the rooftops?

It is kinda like being invited to a party by a friend, just to find out the party was all a front to sell kitchen products. Do you still get to hang out and eat stuff? Sure. But is it really a party of friends by friends. No. Its a business transaction.

That's not the same thing at all, since you are under no obligation, perceived or otherwise, to purchase from somebody in a modelling thread. A more apt analogy would be your friend showing you some cool kitchen products they have, and then saying 'And by the way, I sell these through party plan...'

At which point you say 'Good for you, but I'm not in the market just now' and move on. No need for ickiness.

Personally I quite like seeing lots of really good models.

Whenever the model is less than steller the comments are always

For Gork/Morks sake water down your paints!!!

We're seeing a lot of individual figures by commission guys who just make a new thread for each unit/model or whatever. I go to the showcase section to look at nice models, and I don't care who paints them as long as I'm seeing cool stuff. Yeah, I'd love to see personal armies, but nicely painted models are great to look at no matter the context.

When I still did commissions, I relegated it to a P&M blog. If more of them could do that it would both quiet the vocal minority here, and make it easier to find all their work. Frankly I have no problems with how they do things now though.

For the record, posts in Showcase which are nothing but a link and don't actually have pictures are against the rules of the Showcase. Hit the friendly yellow triangle if you see one.

insaniak wrote:

Jimsolo wrote: My issue only comes in when I'm all amazed at the quality and get to the bottom of the page only to be surprised by a So-and-So Studios banner in the person's signature. It smacks of deceit.

Is the miniature any less awesome because they painted it for someone else than it would be if they painted it for themselves?

The primary purpose of the modelling forum is for people to show off what they are working on, and to check out what other people are working on. The model looks the same whether it is painted for sale or painted for personal use.

Agreed.

insaniak wrote:
Can you give an example of a post that you see as fitting this 'shady' behaviour?

Because I'm not seeing it. What you seem to be objecting to is people trying to drum up business by posting pictures without being clear upfront that these pictures are advertising their business... which, frankly, sounds fairly counter-productive from a business point of view. How are they promoting themselves if people don't realise that they are a business because they're not shouting about it from the rooftops?

How 'bout P&M Showcase threads that show a picture of the model, and a link to their ebay auction?

Lormax wrote:How 'bout P&M Showcase threads that show a picture of the model, and a link to their ebay auction?

I don't see a problem with that. If it was just a link, then as Mannahnin pointed out it would be against the rules.

Obviously it would be best if it is clear that the link is in fact a link to an auction... (but then, it's just common sense to make it clear what your link is heading to in this day and ago of computer hi-jacking and malware)... but beyond that, it's not an issue.

Here's an example of the sort of thread I mean. Now, this was Snapshot's first model post to Dakka, and Snapshot has, in all of his subsequent posts, declared his status as a commission modeler/painter up front, so I'm not trying to attack him personally. I was just a little...let down...when I clicked on the thread expecting a newbie painter's first attempt, only to find a gorgeous model with an advertisement banner at the bottom. I am not trying to say that Snapshot was deliberately trying to mislead me, but it can seem a little deceptive.

Here's another one. There is no mention of commission work until after you've viewed the image. Don't get me wrong, it's a gorgeous piece, it just seems like a deceptive business practice, whether it's intentional or not.

I honestly don't mind. They still put up pictures and usually have a clearer title. It's the threads that are but links to a random blog off somewhere that are the annoyance. You see it at times in the tutorial section a well.

The way to fix it and still get people to look at your blog would be to at least post some pictures of it, maybe the entire tutorial an have the link to the blog at the bottom. The few times I have clicked on the blog links in those types have threads have revealed nothing but utter garbage. I seem to be somewhat harsher if it's just presented like that as the link by itself gives the impression "This guy doesn't really care, why should I?".

Hmmm, pondering this I've come to the following conclusion.

It's fine to show off your wares there, but I would certainly expect that the free advertising should be covered by immediately signing up as a DCM and then, as the monies roll in, actually advertise on the site. Since the site and community has enabled the individual's business to expand, it would be good manners to repay that.

If they do that, all power to em and I look forward to seeing the pretty pictures of their work and even recommending them, if I don't see at least DCM on their title, they can swing for it. Its the equivalent of fly-posting.

Doesnt bother me the slightest

mainly two things though

1. I barely read the painting/modeling sections half the time
2. I barely comment in the painting/modeling sections half the time

So in the end I have a worthless opinion. I just look at the pretty pictures in the picture book

Plus I trained myself to ignore sigs. Ironic I suppose that I use one myself

Jimsolo wrote:Here's an example of the sort of thread I mean. Now, this was Snapshot's first model post to Dakka, and Snapshot has, in all of his subsequent posts, declared his status as a commission modeler/painter up front, so I'm not trying to attack him personally. I was just a little...let down...when I clicked on the thread expecting a newbie painter's first attempt, only to find a gorgeous model with an advertisement banner at the bottom. I am not trying to say that Snapshot was deliberately trying to mislead me, but it can seem a little deceptive.

Here's another one. There is no mention of commission work until after you've viewed the image. Don't get me wrong, it's a gorgeous piece, it just seems like a deceptive business practice, whether it's intentional or not.

That's not something worth getting in a tizzy about. The guy even asks for advice and comments to help him paint better. You came off as a bit standoffish in your post to him; people generally don't like being called "shills" or anything related to that.

I agree, that's why I made a second, softer post farther down the page.

Jimsolo wrote:I was just a little...let down...when I clicked on the thread expecting a newbie painter's first attempt, only to find a gorgeous model with an advertisement banner at the bottom.

Sounds like the bigger problem then is that you are equating 'new poster' with 'beginner painter'...

Would you have been as let down if it was the first post of a painter who wasn't painting as a business, but could paint to that standard? Why does it being a business make the miniature less pleasant to look at?

Here's another one. There is no mention of commission work until after you've viewed the image. Don't get me wrong, it's a gorgeous piece, it just seems like a deceptive business practice, whether it's intentional or not.

I'm really struggling to see the 'deception' here. Again, how does it help his business to be less obvious about the fact that he is a commission painter?

To clarify a little, Dakka has no problem with businesses spruiking their wares. So long as they don't get spammy with it, it doesn't conflict with our paid advertisers, since those who pay are paying for banner ads, not to stifle any mention of other businesses (as happens on some other forums I visit, which just gets ridiculous).

So we have no problem whatsoever with someone posting in the modelling board and along with the pictures mentioning that they paint on commission, or that they sell what they paint.

The complaint in this thread seems to be based on the assumption that commission painters are showing off their work solely to advertise (which, again, isn't a problem under Dakka's rules even if it is the case) and that some of them aren't being obvious enough about the fact that the miniatures they are showing off were painted for money... which leads back to the so-far-unanswered question of 'Why does it matter?'

I'm just not seeing the problem. A good miniature is a good miniature, whether it was painted for hire or painted for the painter himself.

Yeah, I'm not seeing much of an issue with this either. As long as there is eye candy in the thread (regardless of the reason for its existence), I'm fine with it. The threads that piss me off are the empty ones, especially the 4chan wannabe threads where people tell others to post stuff but don't do so themselves in the starting post.

Either way, even if its a commission piece and the OP is expecting only ooh's and aaah's, I still comment on it negatively (but politely) if there are things I don't like. i.e. "I think the model would look alot better with the arm angled upwards and with the longer power sword". Being a commision showcase thread doesn't mean you have to treat it with kid gloves.

I don't mind commission work in the showcase threads at all, or when they do a "How-To" in the P&M thread.
Most of the commission guys here will even give a quick rundown on how they did a given piece in the showcase threads.
As long as there are pics, I'm cool.

It's when they just have a link to a blog, or to eBay, that it gets annoying.
Same thing for the Bat-Rep section:
Thread: Awesome battle here!
Me: Sweet, time to goof off at work reading this!
Open Thread: Sucker! I'm just a blog link!