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Just a pretty lengthy reply I wrote for a GK thread, figured I'd post it here too for anyone interested.

" Seriously, the argument that people always quote on why having only Psycannons in your army is bad (ie. Guard/BT/Loganwing/whatever will outrange you) is just stupid. Think about it for a second. You really think that the GK player is gonna sit 48" away scratching his head thinking "I wonder why my army is getting shot apart?" for the whole game?

Of course not.

He's gonna deploy centrally if going first (right across from you if going second) drive 12" on t1 and either:

a. Jump out right away and have an effective range of ~39" with his Psycannons of t1 (12" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range)

or

b. Stay inside, drive 12" again on t2 and have an effective range of 51" (24" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range).

Either way he'll be popping smoke on t1 after driving 12".

Pitched battle deployment, if the GK player went first, deploying centrally you can reach almost anywhere on the board with a 39" range. Even if your opponent castled up right in the corner, most of the GK units will be in range (especially against a huge IG parking lot, they take up quite a bit of space, you can't fit 12 Chimera hulls into a 5"x5" square in the corner).
Going second he'll have everything in range t1, as he can deploy everything straight across from you, and 12" deployment+39" range = oh hi, anywhere on the board right across from me.

Spearhead makes it a bit more hard, but with 49" range with 2 turns movement the GK player will be in range by t2 at the latest, meaning you get one shooting phase if going second, 2 if going first.

Of course though, you'll break some of those Razors carrying marines around, meaning those marines will take a while longer to get in range.

But what happens when there are 12 Razors driving at you, all either carrying guys with Psycannons or toting Psycannons on the Razor themselves? (ie. Assault cannon razor w/ Psybolt ammo). You really think you're gonna break 12 razors in one shooting phase, 2 tops?

Remember, stunning doesn't help, hi Fortitude.

Think outside the box, people. You don't even necessarily need Dreads if you build your list right. Grey Knights excel at 24". If you maximise your shooting at that range, and make sure you've got enough guys to get there, well, now we're talking

Also, on the topic of Rhinos over Razors, Razors > Rhinos ever time IMO.

Reason being, Grey Knights all carry Storm bolters, which are great torrent weapons. Every time you shoot you PAGK at an infantry squad and don't shoot your Storm bolters, you're wasting shots ie. not performing at maximum efficiency. Thus, you wan't to get those SB's firing too, and you gotta be outside your vehicle. So, why not pay 10pts extra and get an extremely handy gun for torrenting infantry, which also can suppress enemy Razors in a pinch, and when deployed en masse actually puts out a very respectable amount of firepower for very minimal cost.

Think about it this way. You've got 9 Rhinos. You pay 90pts, and gain 27 twin linked str6 shots. That's a bargain.

Also, even if you did want to keep your PAGK inside their vehicles, its inevitable that at least some will get shot out anyway, meaning that you'll offer targets for your opponents anti-infantry anyway at some point.

Its far more effective to just drive all your PAGK forward in their Razors, pop smoke, jump out and shoot. You're presenting around 30-35 MEQ bodies to your opponent, which not many armies can put down very quickly, especially considering that you should be able to kill/suppress key targets when you jump out and shoot, reducing return firepower. Next turn, you'll be firing your Psycannons in heavy profile, and all your Razors will add their shooting in too.

Sorry for the wall of text. Any of this make sense? =) "

so, is your point that grey knights are overpowered?

Yes, I agree.

Thought you couldn't disembark when something has moved cruising speed (i.e. 12 inches) or maybe I'm just getting it confused with flat out?
(re-edit) nm, you can disembark, Just mis-read the page. Can definately go 12 + disembark 2' + 1' (p67 with the missle launcher guy at the tip of the 2' still counted as acceptable apparently, but the remainder of my post stands as is)


either case, everytime I move and then disembark I seem to attract an unhealthy number of Ap3 large templates with a bunch of bodies near a squishy tank. The tank may survive with the smoke cover but usually the guys don't do as well since they would likely be facing the enemy and be looking to get as many shots in as possible.

Also, if I'm reading you right, you are saying to pay for psybolts for strike squads of 6 men each to fit inside assault cannon razorbacks with psybolts?

or are you saying to get HB + psybolt razors? It is very unclear where your train of thought was going. First you are saying 2 out of 12 razorbacks with psybolt assault cannons then they somehow become 10 points more than rhino str 6 things which I'm just assuming you mean HB razors and no longer referring to your eariler 12 assault cannon razor army?

Also, how do you get 12 razorbacks? That's not allowed under the FOC. At most you can get is 8. That's if you took 6 strike squads + 2 squads of henchmen as elites if you had 2 inquisitors.

If you took cotez to try and get 3 squads of henchmen, they count as troops and not as elites anymore and you'll be still stuck at 6.


I'm sorry but the advice here is very confusing for me to follow. Your marines if you did that drive up and shoot manuver will either get torrented to death due to being outsid the tank and likely in the open. The smoke from the rhino/razor does not apply to the men outside of it. If you are positioning them outside the tank in such a way that they have cover, you'll effectively just have 3 guys shooting, assuming that one is a psycannon, you just get off 2 SB shots? since you are saying razors I'm assuming 6 man squad

Doing that essentially sets up for a nice move + rapid fire into your lines. Even 30 marines especially parked so close together *limit of 2' deployment* will mean rapid fire plasma + no cover from meltas, + vulnerable to multple hits from templates, and blast templates will love you for clumping.

At the points level where you can have that many marines and razors, you should expect some decent heavy return fire as you are unlikely to wipe the other side off the board with what shooting you can do. Not effective vs heavy mech armies.

sudojoe wrote:Also, how do you get 12 razorbacks? That's not allowed under the FOC. At most you can get is 8. That's if you took 6 strike squads + 2 squads of henchmen as elites if you had 2 inquisitors.

6 Troops slots, 3 Elite (Purifiers) and 3 Heavy Support (Purgation).

Not an uninteresting read, but you can only get your point so far with a demonstration in a vacuum. The GK's opponent is nowhere to be seen in your explanation.
I take it your point is that range is irrelevant ?

It might have been a reply with quotes from a different post originally, because it is a bit hard to follow.

Concerning the number of Razorbacks: Coteaz, 3x Purifiers, 6x Henchmen, 3x Purgation. That's 12 Razorbacks, 12 Psycannons for only 1600ish points.

Upgrading your nine Rhino's to nine Razorbacks with HB and Psybolts costs 90 points, so I guess that one fits.

ahh nm, I stand corrected on the 12 razorbacks as I usually think that you'd be using the psyflemen dreads but I will stand by ground on that it's not very hard to mow down that many knights in the open especially with a mech army. All your fancy smoke won't save your guys on the outside. Heck, my 140 point plasma vets can melt 6 GK pretty fast with double taps hitting on 3's and wounds on 2+ without cover. That's not counting the 4 las guns/ flamer template from the hull HF or the multilaser if I'm still too far.

I'm just using IG as I'd imagine that this discussion was somehow dealing with a static gun line army like IG.

Spearhead or Dawn of War deployments make range more of a factor. Even in Pitched Battle, going second against the GK allows one to refuse one or both flanks and maximize distance by deploying in/toward the corners.

Terrain exists, too. LOS-blocking which limits the angles the GK can use when moving straight across the table and hopping out, and Difficult which can (and will, if you're using a lot of vehicles) immobilize some of your transports.

Enemy movement/action also impacts your movement. If the GK player's opponent has an assault vehicle (like a LR or SR) opposite the GK transports near the middle of the board, the GK player may not wish to move full speed in the first turn or two, due to not wanting to expose his stuff to being charged.

I agree with the central point that 24" range is not as bad or limiting as it is sometimes portrayed to be, but the situations and math given in the OP are oversimplified and a bit misleading.

Jabbdo wrote:Also, on the topic of Rhinos over Razors, Razors > Rhinos ever time IMO.

Reason being, Grey Knights all carry Storm bolters, which are great torrent weapons. Every time you shoot you PAGK at an infantry squad and don't shoot your Storm bolters, you're wasting shots ie. not performing at maximum efficiency.

What if you take 5 purifiers to maximize psycannons? Getting out to use those 3 stormbolters, which puts the tiny squad at risk of losing the important guns which are the psycannons. In some cases it may be much better to have a Rhino and sit inside... sure you lose 6 stormbolter shots, but your psycannons take A LOT longer to die.

Horst wrote:so, is your point that grey knights are overpowered?

Yes, I agree.

Cool story bro needs more dragons?

I thought the noobish cries of cheese had well and truly ended.

On topic: You are correct in saying GK players arent ever going to get shots off because they are constantly out ranged, but range is still a problem. Once PAGK are on foot, they arent nearly as mobile and anything outside of their range is difficult to get in.

Gk Are a noob army IMO since any strategy is a winning strategy in this book. The require little thought and still produce a wining army. They are also a newer flashy army everyone seems to be buying. Even a kid could beat an experienced players army with their rules and some luck.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Gk Are a noob army IMO since any strategy is a winning strategy in this book. The require little thought and still produce a wining army. They are also a newer flashy army everyone seems to be buying. Even a kid could beat an experienced players army with their rules and some luck.

This is an extremely useless and unnecessary comment. I clicked on the thread thinking the new post would continue the discussion on razors and rhinos, but all I got was your zero content post. (Whining in an off topic manner does not count as content).



PS - Still waiting for someone to acknowledge the usefulness of Rhinos for 5 man Purifier teams, or 10 man GKSS sqauds (this one is obvious).

10 GKSS
2 Psycannons
Justicar with Hammer
Psybolt
Rhino+serch light

291 pts
-------------------------------------
That's why i choose rhino......

The way a loganwing or other army can outrange you is letting you stack up in the middle, and deploying majorly on one flank with some long fangs and such on the other.

focus fire on one side of your wide rhino/razorspam wall that is closer and you'll find some of your guns out of range for a few turns. If you break off some of your main force to deal with the opposite long fanks, and that strike force is killed by either the fangs, drop pods, ect. Now you have a significant threat that you can't really doa nything about for the entire game.
While good dice or GK being "overpowered" can overcome it, a smart player can use it to tip the axis in his favor somewhat

Spamming undercosted units like Psybacks is generally a good thing. One nice aspect of Rhinos (at least for Purifiers) is the ability to fire out and still retain the benefits of the box.

Imo rhinos are better for purifers espeacially 10 man with max psycanons. As they move they have 2 and then disembark now you have 4 which can pour on a significant amount of firepower espeacially in a list that sports a min of 4 of them. I like razorbacks for strike squads or henchman. Reason being is psycanons are cheaper to spam in purifiers and they have cf to supplement their lost nfw attacks.

Both are solid but I prefer the purifiers since I have found its harder to kill 10 purifiers then one psyback.

This kind of list would just expound the problems GK have with killing TEQ and MEQ armoured opponents. Especially if you ran into a BA player. Your small squads would get torn up piecemeal and you wouldn't have an effective answer.

I play Razorbacks myself, but pigeon-holing your army into this kind of list is just asking for trouble.

Draigo wrote:Imo rhinos are better for purifers espeacially 10 man with max psycanons. As they move they have 2 and then disembark now you have 4 which can pour on a significant amount of firepower espeacially in a list that sports a min of 4 of them. I like razorbacks for strike squads or henchman. Reason being is psycanons are cheaper to spam in purifiers and they have cf to supplement their lost nfw attacks.

Both are solid but I prefer the purifiers since I have found its harder to kill 10 purifiers then one psyback.

4 moving psycannons = 2 moving and 1 stationary (the one on the Razorback).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Draigo wrote:Imo rhinos are better for purifers espeacially 10 man with max psycanons. As they move they have 2 and then disembark now you have 4 which can pour on a significant amount of firepower espeacially in a list that sports a min of 4 of them. I like razorbacks for strike squads or henchman. Reason being is psycanons are cheaper to spam in purifiers and they have cf to supplement their lost nfw attacks.

Both are solid but I prefer the purifiers since I have found its harder to kill 10 purifiers then one psyback.

4 moving psycannons = 2 moving and 1 stationary (the one on the Razorback).

But it depends what youre up against since against things like orks I wouldnt worry bout running head long into. Id just disembark and unload with all 4 not moving from each squad. The 1 on the razorback doesnt equal 4.

Draigo wrote:
But it depends what youre up against since against things like orks I wouldnt worry bout running head long into. Id just disembark and unload with all 4 not moving from each squad. The 1 on the razorback doesnt equal 4.

if you disembark you count as moving

I meant to stay out so then not moving.

The realy problem in relying on psycannons to handly mech heavy armies is not the range issue but the fact that when moving you only get 2 shots. 2 S7 shots won't do squat to 13+ AV most of the time, and honestly should not be relied abon to kill any av over 10 reliabily (you only pen on a 5+). when you don't those vehicles get to unload on your non covered MEQ,

To all those crying GK is the new cheese, I think you guys all missed the necron bandwagon. GK codex is almost comming up on 1 yr old now. How is that the new cheese anymore?

If you want to dominate MEQ and especially GK lists like the one above, try the necron AV 13 wall. Enough tesla and range from cryptecs to burn down as much shooting comming at you. If they charge, you still got handy things like seismic crucible and the lol mindshackle scarabs.

Frankly around here, quite a few folks are going necron. Wraithwing, scarab farm, footcrons/immortal spam, and av13 wall are all becomming quite established as being as good as if not better than GK razor spam. 2 guys are in the middle of converting a necron air force as well since they lack the models and we'll see how that holds up.

Light squishy tanks? Meet imotek lolstorms. You have very little that ignores the 3+ immortals have. a few shots of rending doesn't do much and they still have res orbs or just ever living and RP at the very least. Teslas will torrent down your 3+ armor saves. Tons of KP in the razorspam list and you really are going to clog your own firelanes what with terrain and all.

sudojoe wrote:To all those crying GK is the new cheese, I think you guys all missed the necron bandwagon. GK codex is almost comming up on 1 yr old now. How is that the new cheese anymore?

If you want to dominate MEQ and especially GK lists like the one above, try the necron AV 13 wall. Enough tesla and range from cryptecs to burn down as much shooting comming at you. If they charge, you still got handy things like seismic crucible and the lol mindshackle scarabs.

Frankly around here, quite a few folks are going necron. Wraithwing, scarab farm, footcrons/immortal spam, and av13 wall are all becomming quite established as being as good as if not better than GK razor spam. 2 guys are in the middle of converting a necron air force as well since they lack the models and we'll see how that holds up.

Light squishy tanks? Meet imotek lolstorms. You have very little that ignores the 3+ immortals have. a few shots of rending doesn't do much and they still have res orbs or just ever living and RP at the very least. Teslas will torrent down your 3+ armor saves. Tons of KP in the razorspam list and you really are going to clog your own firelanes what with terrain and all.

The problem is most places aren't seeing a huge surge in the number of Necron players yet. They will soon enough but until that happens GK will continue to be "the" cheese.

Necrons are fairly good, but I haven't run across a build I couldn't handle yet.

OverwatchCNC wrote:]The problem is most places aren't seeing a huge surge in the number of Necron players yet. They will soon enough but until that happens GK will continue to be "the" cheese.

And there's two reasons for that:

1) People sit and outwardly cry "omg cheese, I won't play GKs" which attracts people to the idea of playing an "unbeatable" army, (it's pretty basic psychology for people to -want- to win competitive events,) instead of spending a couple of games figuring out it's totally possible to beat GKs with an all-comers list, (I tabled a draigo wing list with an incinerator terminator/inquisitoral stormtrooper with meltas Daemonhunters list, ffs.) Is it tough if you don't have a perfect counter? Sure, but that can be said about plenty of armies.

2) It's still entirely possible to build a good 1850 point GK list for at least half the $$ of a good necron army. Don't forget that people have plenty of marine vehicles laying around they can just repaint.


On topic, I prefer Rhinos because I don't like running MSU lists and having a fethload of KPs. If I need MSU for objective games, I'll combat squad. If the need calls for it, I'll gladly deep strike my strike squads.

Psycannons really are not that scary. Str 7. Rending. Cool, you need a six then a 3+ to glance av 14. Or you could shoot the troops. Needs 2+ to wound, but they get either a 3+ armor if MEQ or a 4+ cover if not. The only thing that they excell at are popping av 10. When you need 5's or 6's to pen its not very efficent.

Sure, str 7 isnt that great when you've got one or two shots. Its when you've got 72 shots it starts getting scary.

I'm pretty sure you can have something at least equally nasty if you're facing 72 psycannon shots. For less points, of course.
Say, a couple demolisher cannons... And they happen to have a 24" range, too !

If you have 72/36 psycannon shots, your enemy may have a lot of missiles, at least 20 of them---perfect weapons for AV11 vehicle and MEQ.

I've found that with shorter ranged armies that indeed, you can get those weapons into range very quickly, but is it in range of something, or in range of what it needs to be in range?