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I've been reading and reading on dakka about the spam the draigowing the opness the yada yada about grey knights
I'm playing blood angels atm, my girlfriend has been a major help in my wargaming so far and I asked her to look through the gamesworkshop listing and find an army she would like to paint and that I should plat next so she picked grey knights. I've heard and read all kinds of things about grey knights and I guess my questions are :
1) are the grey knights REALLY that op? Or are people just yeahyeahing about them?
2) how are they to play fun - competitive - great to paint as well?
3) I love their unit selection I've seen some henchman acolytes and assassins which is something my blood angels don't have are things like this normally incorporated in a GK list?
4) Where would you guys suggest looking for the most competitive grey knights list? I wanna take them to tourneys if they're op or if they're bad then so be it but it's for her and I don't wanna lose to much
Thanks in advance guys! Sorry for asking alot of the community again but if I knew what I was stepping into this time I would just go buy a codex but I'm not sure where we stand yet XD
also, if they're that op - what does the community feel about sisters of battle? Are they worth a look? She also enjoyed them but I've heard they're atrocious so all this negativity leads to questions XD
Thanks!
-Gharron

1) are the grey knights REALLY that op? Or are people just yeahyeahing about them?
2) how are they to play fun - competitive - great to paint as well?
3) I love their unit selection I've seen some henchman acolytes and assassins which is something my blood angels don't have are things like this normally incorporated in a GK list?
4) Where would you guys suggest looking for the most competitive grey knights list? I wanna take them to tourneys if they're op or if they're bad then so be it but it's for her and I don't wanna lose to much

1) They can be. People will always whine and complain.

2) Fun to play, very competative, the paintingis fun but usually people stick to the metal color sceme which can get boring after a while.

3) The henchmen are not top teir choices. They linger from the previous edition to allow people to use the models they had perchased a few years earlier. There are some nice combos with henchmen though.

4) About $150 makes a competative Draigo wing. If you are interested in something a little more original I have an army up in the Swap Shop... hint hint... wink wink.

Gharron,

I see that you're from Chattanooga; do you ever visit Dicehead up in Cleveland?

Anyway:

1) Probably OP if you have the correct list. I'd say not really overall but in general yes I'd say they are since you can decimate armies with a good GK list much easier than you can with other lists.
2) They are fun to play if you like winning a lot. They also require finesse for higher-end play as the lists with Knights in them make you think about your moves due to insufficient numbers to make a mistake and the henchmen lists can be fragile. They are fun to paint in that they have a lot of trinkets and bling you can go nuts with.
3) There are two types of GK lists, normally. One are "Knights" with Draigo, Strike Squads, or Purifier Spam lists. The other type are henchmen lists that either go all henchmen or blend the two elements. Good henchmen lists have henchmen in them, so yes. I prefer a henchmen list as I feel that it is quite capable of winning. You'll find, however, that it doesn't really make a difference as long as you take some Riflemen Dreads. That's the core to a good GK list.
4) Look at "Jy2" and his battle reports for a great Purifier list. Go visit the "11th company" website for a solid henchmen list. You'll have to search through "older posts" but he talks about his tournament winning list there.

Come visit us at Dicehead some time; there is a tournament this Saturday all day and I'll be playing my Grey Knights there; come say hello and I'd be happy to answer some questions you may have!

Stormcrow wrote:Gharron,

I see that you're from Chattanooga; do you ever visit Dicehead up in Cleveland?

Anyway:

1) Probably OP if you have the correct list. I'd say not really overall but in general yes I'd say they are since you can decimate armies with a good GK list much easier than you can with other lists.
2) They are fun to play if you like winning a lot. They also require finesse for higher-end play as the lists with Knights in them make you think about your moves due to insufficient numbers to make a mistake and the henchmen lists can be fragile. They are fun to paint in that they have a lot of trinkets and bling you can go nuts with.
3) There are two types of GK lists, normally. One are "Knights" with Draigo, Strike Squads, or Purifier Spam lists. The other type are henchmen lists that either go all henchmen or blend the two elements. Good henchmen lists have henchmen in them, so yes. I prefer a henchmen list as I feel that it is quite capable of winning. You'll find, however, that it doesn't really make a difference as long as you take some Riflemen Dreads. That's the core to a good GK list.
4) Look at "Jy2" and his battle reports for a great Purifier list. Go visit the "11th company" website for a solid henchmen list. You'll have to search through "older posts" but he talks about his tournament winning list there.

Come visit us at Dicehead some time; there is a tournament this Saturday all day and I'll be playing my Grey Knights there; come say hello and I'd be happy to answer some questions you may have!

I was at dicehead's two....three days ago?? Maybe something like that I'm finishing up my blood angels to come up and play friday night! (it'll be my first game)


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I guess overall I'm excited about them I love the dreadknight I haven't read their omnibus yet but I hope to have it soon =)
Are there a ton of grey knights players running around atm? Also, what would be a good buy to start the draigo wing? I have 25 termies on the way atm but I don't have draigo or anything like that yet >< I was gonna buy 40 of the "normal" grey knights but I see they have strikes purifiers yada yada I dunno how to distinguish them yet ><
So what would you guys suggest is a good buy to build some really competitive lists like starting points.

1) The codex is really solid and balanced. Unfortunantly, people with older books that arn't balanced can struggle against an army that has an answer to everything. Hence it might be viewed as OP. The only OP thing I see is Warp Quake and only against daemon players.

2) yes

3) IMO, its not a GK list if it has Inquisitors or Henchmen. It has become an Inquisition list. They play very differently from lists of just GKs.

4) The most competitive lists from the GK Codex are going to be Draigowing(Draigo and Paladins), Purifier lists(Crowe and Purifiers, either 10 man in rhinos or 6 man in Razorbacks, or a combo), Greytide(lots of 10 man Strike Squads with Razorbacks) and Henchmen lists(Coteaz and 6 squads of henchmen, various builds. Might have GK elites and 2nd HQ)


Just look through the Army Lists section here on Dakka and you will find examples from all of the above.

I have 25 termies on the way what's the HQ besides draigo that goes with them? If you were going to buy some of the normal marines how many would you say is a safe amount to buy to cover most lists?

Typically 3 boxes of power armor guys can cover about any list purifier or otherwise. If you dont want to run Draigo you could always try to make a mordrak list or mix things together and make a hybrid list.

25-30 PAGK should cover all your PA needs. You can probably find the old metal ones on E-bay to bulk out your force if you are worried about cost.

I do wanna run draigowing but I'm not sure what that takes I know draigo and I'm not sure how many termies and I was planning on 30 normal marines I have 25 termies I dunno how many rhinos/razorbacks I have a storm raven but it's for my blood angels but it could be easily stripped I'm just totally unsure as tto what to buy XD

Draigowing, IMO, isn't a truly competitive list. it's very gimmiky and there are things that just demolish it(like Demolisher cannons)

It is very resilient against small arms fire it gets FnP and armor against. its also good against multi-wound elites.


But it has serious issues in objective games because it simply can't hold enough of them. It does ok in kill points, but thats only 1 of 3 mission types.

And there is still the issue with one Demolisher cannon taking out 1/2 your army in one shot.

What would you suggest I buy? I was gonna buy like 30 of the normal guys and then get some rhinos and razorbacks, do you feel like dreadnoughts or dreadknights are worth takng? I wanna win as much as possible lol



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And because the girlfriend picked em I gotta work with em!

Okay, my responses are going to be much different from the rest of the sheep.

Gharron wrote:
1) are the grey knights REALLY that op? Or are people just yeahyeahing about them?

God no. They are a strong army, but definitely not OP and I wouldn't rank them in a higher tier the BA, SW, or IG. Most people are just whining.

2) how are they to play fun - competitive - great to paint as well?

Can be competitve, but most lists are loaded with Purifiers, Termies, or Palladins in noob-slayer type lists. Honestly Palladins suck.....as do GK Termies. You can definitely build armies around the concept, but most lists on dakka are full of fail.

Painting is what you make of it as with any other army. I prefer greys instead of OMG SILVER!

3) I love their unit selection I've seen some henchman acolytes and assassins which is something my blood angels don't have are things like this normally incorporated in a GK list?

Henchmen armies are the scariest lists out their....especially with proper back-up. Sad thing is that most people seem not to understand how to build a good list out of them. Everyone want power-armor or Paladins and don't use the codex to it's full effect.

4) Where would you guys suggest looking for the most competitive grey knights list? I wanna take them to tourneys if they're op or if they're bad then so be it but it's for her and I don't wanna lose to much

Honestly....probably not dakka. As much controversy as some people find it, I'd go to yesthetruthhurts.com and just look up builds under the grey knights tab. Stelek is a bit of an donkey-cave and is preachy...but he knows what the hell he's talking about and doesn't BS things. Granted he's a bit set in his attitude so I wouldn't call him out on it as it'll just devolve into a blog war and not be productive.

Do you have a list of what I would get the most out of for my money? Like the most versatile competitive lists? I bought the termies because they were a decent price but I wanted to get a good idea before I started buying anything else. I've been nervous to buy anything especially not knowng what a purifier actually is and the difference in them and a strike lol so I have a lot to research and learn and I guess to buy if I can ever get a good direction XD

@gharron
You can always watch youtube batreps and do more research before investing too much more. Purifier is a power armor grey knight who is normally an elite but can be made a troop if you have Crowe as your hq.

As far as most competitive its a hard call since many have differing opinions. But I suggest readin batreps here and watch as many as you can on youtube while reading the codex and main rule book.

Gharron wrote:Do you have a list of what I would get the most out of for my money? Like the most versatile competitive lists?

Uhm, that would depend on you how you want to play them and what interests you most.

I bought the termies because they were a decent price but I wanted to get a good idea before I started buying anything else. I've been nervous to buy anything especially not knowng what a purifier actually is and the difference in them and a strike lol so I have a lot to research and learn and I guess to buy if I can ever get a good direction XD

The difference between Purifiers and Strike is that Purifiers have their helmets painted white.......seriously that's the only difference in terms of the models.

So if I buy 30 of the normal marines I'm doing ok? I love the draigo and coeaz models and to be honest I wanna play the lists I've seen XD the draigo wing sounds like ALOT of fun but not as competitive as putting the marines in the rhinos and midfield holding at 24" range and blowing people to pieces.
@draigo I've been watching miniwargaming's battle reports with them but they're few and far between and everyone else is playing the old codex or running dreadknights and I keep hearing dreadknights are bad.
So hopefully tomorrow or friday I'll pickup those marines =)

Nungunz wrote:Okay, my responses are going to be much different from the rest of the sheep.

Gharron wrote:
1) are the grey knights REALLY that op? Or are people just yeahyeahing about them?

God no. They are a strong army, but definitely not OP and I wouldn't rank them in a higher tier the BA, SW, or IG. Most people are just whining.

2) how are they to play fun - competitive - great to paint as well?

Can be competitve, but most lists are loaded with Purifiers, Termies, or Palladins in noob-slayer type lists. Honestly Palladins suck.....as do GK Termies. You can definitely build armies around the concept, but most lists on dakka are full of fail.

Painting is what you make of it as with any other army. I prefer greys instead of OMG SILVER!

3) I love their unit selection I've seen some henchman acolytes and assassins which is something my blood angels don't have are things like this normally incorporated in a GK list?

Henchmen armies are the scariest lists out their....especially with proper back-up. Sad thing is that most people seem not to understand how to build a good list out of them. Everyone want power-armor or Paladins and don't use the codex to it's full effect.

4) Where would you guys suggest looking for the most competitive grey knights list? I wanna take them to tourneys if they're op or if they're bad then so be it but it's for her and I don't wanna lose to much

Honestly....probably not dakka. As much controversy as some people find it, I'd go to yesthetruthhurts.com and just look up builds under the grey knights tab. Stelek is a bit of an donkey-cave and is preachy...but he knows what the hell he's talking about and doesn't BS things. Granted he's a bit set in his attitude so I wouldn't call him out on it as it'll just devolve into a blog war and not be productive.

Orly. not overpowered?

please explain what army can beat purifier/psycannon spam supported by 6 psyfleman dreads. (besides IG).

@kb305

Youd have to be more specific as to what purifier list. just saying spam with dreads doesnt do any good for discussing. I can think of a few that can beat them but Id need more specifics so you dont decide after I counter to toss out different numbers/units etc.

Draigo wrote:@kb305

Youd have to be more specific as to what purifier list. just saying spam with dreads doesnt do any good for discussing. I can think of a few that can beat them but Id need more specifics so you dont decide after I counter to toss out different numbers/units etc.

i dont know exactly and i havnt memorized the grey knights codex either.

you can help me change or modify things that i forgot. but for 2000 pnts lets say:

crowe 150

10 purifiers 4x psycannons, 5x halbreds, hammer, rhino 335

10 purifiers 4x psycannons, 5x halbreds, hammer, rhino 335

10 purifiers 4x psycannons, 5x halbreds, hammer, rhino 335

3x dread psybolt ammo, 2x tl autoc 405

2x Ven dread, psycolt ammo, 2x tl autoc 390

1950.

i would just sit there probably not move anything, firing 20 strength 8 shots at 48 inchs, rerolling misses.

anything that comes within a 24 inch radius takes 48 strength 7 rending shots.

and you probably dont want to assault this either. it's not going to go well for you.

hmmm, do tell??

lets see, only the Dreadnoughts having a range greater then 24" is a major weakness.


it is a solid list, but it isn't unbeatable. A Hammernator squad in a Landraider can give them trouble.

The only reason people scream "OP!!!" when they see GKs is because GKs caused a Meta swing. Previously, there wasn't any strong marine shooting list that could be outside of its transports. The fact that every unit can put out quite a volume of fire that is decent against anything means that minmaxed tournament lists would have issues because they simply didn't have a rock-paper-scissors deal here. Any GK unit can do anything reasonably well. There isn't a particular target in a GK army. Everything can pretty much do anything.

Grey Templar wrote:lets see, only the Dreadnoughts having a range greater then 24" is a major weakness.


it is a solid list, but it isn't unbeatable. A Hammernator squad in a Landraider can give them trouble.

The only reason people scream "OP!!!" when they see GKs is because GKs caused a Meta swing. Previously, there wasn't any strong marine shooting list that could be outside of its transports. The fact that every unit can put out quite a volume of fire that is decent against anything means that minmaxed tournament lists would have issues because they simply didn't have a rock-paper-scissors deal here. Any GK unit can do anything reasonably well. There isn't a particular target in a GK army. Everything can pretty much do anything.

there's five dreads. do you realize how powerful rerolling misses is? those dreads put 3 squads of 4x missle devastators to shame. please list another army who has something better/more overwhelming @48 inches than 20 strength 8 shots rerolling misses.

major weakness? what other troops choice has lots of hard hitting firepower over 24 inchs?? please list them.
I think a troops choice with four strength 7 assault cannons and 5 high initiative power weapons is maybe not too shabby? and a 5 point thunder hammer is nice. last i checked marines pay 30 points for those....

as for the landraider with th/ss terms. 1 of those is not nearly enough. i might annoy them a bit and take out 1 dread.

three landraiders, 15 th/ss terminators MIGHT beable to do some major damage if they get lucky. it's also nearly 1500 points.

A balanced list with good 36" range firepower can kill them.

Chimeras, Razorbacks, pieplates, all can take GKs out quite handily.


yes, the Dreadnoughts are powerful, but they are still just AV12. accept the fact you have to actually damage them, it isn't good enough just to Stunn a GK vehicle. you have to kill it.

If you can't kill 5 AV12 vehicles then you seriously need to relook your army list.

Grey Templar wrote:A balanced list with good 36" range firepower can kill them.

Chimeras, Razorbacks, pieplates, all can take GKs out quite handily.


yes, the Dreadnoughts are powerful, but they are still just AV12. accept the fact you have to actually damage them, it isn't good enough just to Stunn a GK vehicle. you have to kill it.

If you can't kill 5 AV12 vehicles then you seriously need to relook your army list.

you admit that they're powerful but then in your last sentence you talk about them as if they are nothing? which is it.

and no, i dont think 5 AV12 dreads is that easy to kill when said dreads just blew up half my army.

anyways, please post a list then.

My GKs have trouble with Tesla from Necrons.

The deal is, at the end of the day, a GK is still just a space marine. a more expensive Space Marine. Which means they actually are less durable per point then joe schmo tactical marine.

If you can't kill 30 space marines, well, thats your problem.


and if the dreadnoughts are killing your vehicles you need to consider if you have cover saves for your vehicles? If you can't get cover saves then you are playing with too little LoS blocking terrain.


and GKs NEED psyflemen dreadnoughts. they have nothing else beyond the 24" range. Without Psyflemen, GKs would be a pretty poor army.

If 5 dreads scares you how bout BA sporting 11 plus the problem with psyfleman is they arent all that good in cc at str 6 with 2 attacks. Plus BA has AV 13 with furioso. 3 fast vindicators giving them a wall. That could be rough unless your sporting a ton of rends.

Grey Templar wrote:My GKs have trouble with Tesla from Necrons.

The deal is, at the end of the day, a GK is still just a space marine. a more expensive Space Marine. Which means they actually are less durable per point then joe schmo tactical marine.

If you can't kill 30 space marines, well, thats your problem.


and if the dreadnoughts are killing your vehicles you need to consider if you have cover saves for your vehicles? If you can't get cover saves then you are playing with too little LoS blocking terrain.


and GKs NEED psyflemen dreadnoughts. they have nothing else beyond the 24" range. Without Psyflemen, GKs would be a pretty poor army.

not true at all. the best defense is a good offense. so your arguement is that because they have toughness 4 and 3+ save, which is the same as a tactical marine that they are therefor not that great.

about durability. you're saying that tactical marines and purifiers have the same durability in close combat? so initiative 6, 2 attacks and power weapons doesnt make them any more durable in CC hm?

"they die like marines" what does that even mean?

at 24 inchs, 4 autocannons, i dont see them dying like marines.. i see them wiping something off the table, that's about it.

They have worse durability point for point, because they have the same T, WS and Sv, but cost more. Thus any wound they take costs more of the army than it would for tac marines. Thats what durability means.

"they die like marines" means "they die like 18 point marines, but cost 24+"

As to your list:

At 2K massed IG fire takes down your transports. At that point your marines die to volume of fire, same as any other marine.

At 2K DoA / SR list kicks in and suicide meltas your dreads. If they survive then you have to start diverting fire, which usually requires movement, halving your rending power

At 2K heck green tide, double bubble breaks your army apart in a mass of greenskins. Units of 25, with cover save of at least 5+ youre killing a few from one unit a turn - and then you get swamped.

GK caused a shift in meta - light vehicle spam is no longer quite as full as win, unless you are GK yourselves doing it, then you run the risk of running into a mirror list.

BTW I've played many, many GK lists with my own no-vehicle, no-paladin GK list - and tehere are many ways to defeat it. PA lists struggle in that they arent manouverable if they need to bring firepower to bear, and with that many vehicles youre usually in a nice, easily ripped apart parking lot. Hell I'd suicide in Mordrak with libby and warprift a load of vehicles - if i get you out your transports you are a lot easier to kill.

kb305 wrote:

there's five dreads. do you realize how powerful rerolling misses is? those dreads put 3 squads of 4x missle devastators to shame. please list another army who has something better/more overwhelming @48 inches than 20 strength 8 shots rerolling misses.

Black Templars. Between Cyclone Missile Launcher Terminators (with Tank Hunters, which means effectively S9), Typhoon Missile Launchers and normal Lascannons, a Templar list can easily have 25+ S8+ shots each turn. They're not twin-linked, but they're also not limited to 5 targets, and they're certainly not as easy to kill. As an added bonus, all of them are AP3 or more, AND the missile launchers double as anti-horde.

Grey Templar wrote:1) The codex is really solid and balanced. Unfortunantly, people with older books that arn't balanced can struggle against an army that has an answer to everything. Hence it might be viewed as OP. The only OP thing I see is Warp Quake and only against daemon players.

2) yes

3) IMO, its not a GK list if it has Inquisitors or Henchmen. It has become an Inquisition list. They play very differently from lists of just GKs.

4) The most competitive lists from the GK Codex are going to be Draigowing(Draigo and Paladins), Purifier lists(Crowe and Purifiers, either 10 man in rhinos or 6 man in Razorbacks, or a combo), Greytide(lots of 10 man Strike Squads with Razorbacks) and Henchmen lists(Coteaz and 6 squads of henchmen, various builds. Might have GK elites and 2nd HQ)


Just look through the Army Lists section here on Dakka and you will find examples from all of the above.

how do you get 10 man strike squads into razorbacks for greytide?

Gharron wrote:1) are the grey knights REALLY that op? Or are people just yeahyeahing about them?

The GK codex offers a couple of very exploitable builds in Fifth. Wound shenanigan Paladins, Purifier spam with Crowe, Henchmen spam with Coteaz and the ever present Psydreads are the most obvious examples. These are very OP currently and IMO a serious flaw in the design of the codex. However, like any Fifth codex, you can create a lot of fun lists without these units.

Gharron wrote:2) how are they to play fun - competitive - great to paint as well?

Just Google "grey knights" and look at a couple of images, the models are awesome. However, as it's mostly an elitist army, they don't have that many different models, just many variations of the same baseline.

Gharron wrote:3) I love their unit selection I've seen some henchman acolytes and assassins which is something my blood angels don't have are things like this normally incorporated in a GK list?

Henchmen abuse is common. Who can say no to an 11/11/10 scoring vehicle with Las/Plas for 92 points? You can do a lot with your henchmen units, so you might actually consider making a somewhat less abusive list.

Gharron wrote:4) Where would you guys suggest looking for the most competitive grey knights list? I wanna take them to tourneys if they're op or if they're bad then so be it but it's for her and I don't wanna lose to much

Plenty of GK abuse lying around the web or here on Dakka. IMO, those lists aren't that fun to play or to face.

Gharron wrote:Thanks in advance guys! Sorry for asking alot of the community again but if I knew what I was stepping into this time I would just go buy a codex but I'm not sure where we stand yet XD
also, if they're that op - what does the community feel about sisters of battle? Are they worth a look? She also enjoyed them but I've heard they're atrocious so all this negativity leads to questions XD
Thanks!
-Gharron

Sisters are generally seen as a mediocre WD codex and are insanely expensive to start modelwise.