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Ok I feel a little bit cheated,

Agreed with a friend to make lists to play each other as TAC lists.

I took Aux's list as i dont have models for anything else right now. 1500
2 Primes lash+bonesword
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
10 Genes + Tox
10 Genes + Tox
20 Terms + Tox Sac
20 Terms + Tox Sac
Trygon + AG
Trygon + AG

He took ( I cant tell you the full upgrades cos i dont know)
Command squad with MoO + OOF(when he realised i was having reserves ...nice)
Nova Cannon
Manticore
Battle Cannon
Hellhound
Chimera
7 Ratlings
5 Ratlings
2 x 10 man vet squads with a variety of guns
5 Storm Troopers

Basically he only bought 1300 points and i had to take off units...which he kinda forced me to get rid of two hive guard and some genestealers and a few termagants

So i proceed to set up on a minimal terrain map.

long story short he blocks up in the middle keeping manticore outta range of everything and with his OOF blocks my reserves n blasts me off the table rather boringly with some dubious line of sight abuse, cheesily, and in tiny little piece meals.

I felt cheated but held him to a technical draw on kill points even with appauling dice rolls. Both Genes came on wrong side and did absolutely nothing. I assaulted into terrain with a trygon and rolled triple 1 and failed charge. Am i wrong in thinking that him taking lots of blast templates for my horde and lots of ratlings to wound MC's on 4+ and OOF to block reserves as pretty much designed to kill me?

Any suggestions on an army composition designed to beat this army?

Would gargoyles be a good approach?

IG is one of the best codexes. Nids is by far the worst codex at the moment. 5th edition suports shooting and transports. You have neather. You do the math. ;-)

I have been playing a lott of tyranids and I can tell you this: I have no advice to give you. You have the hive guards, after that I do not know. If you have modeled the trygons good enough I would perhaps get the gargoyle screen for the 4+ cover save.

PS: You played at 1300 points? No wonder it went bad. Tyranids are cripeled by any game that is under 2000 because of how the how the codex work (you need synapse, gargoyle/gaunt screen, things that take out transports, an AV14 plan, some scoring units etc.) and also at 1300 deployment does not become a problem for your oponent (he can castle up, he does not have to spread out.) Try to get up to a 2000 point, or at the very lest 1750. Do not play nids with less points then that.

Niiai wrote:IG is one of the best codexes. Nids is by far the worst codex at the moment. 5th edition suports shooting and transports. You have neather. You do the math. ;-)

I have been playing a lott of tyranids and I can tell you this: I have no advice to give you. You have the hive guards, after that I do not know. If you have modeled the trygons good enough I would perhaps get the gargoyle screen for the 4+ cover save.

PS: You played at 1300 points? No wonder it went bad. Tyranids are cripeled by any game that is under 2000 because of how the how the codex work (you need synapse, gargoyle/gaunt screen, things that take out transports, an AV14 plan, some scoring units etc.) and also at 1300 deployment does not become a problem for your oponent (he can castle up, he does not have to spread out.) Try to get up to a 2000 point, or at the very lest 1750. Do not play nids with less points then that.

Assault has never been as good as it is now, so I somewhat disagree with this take, although vehicles are certainly the crown of 5th edition. I would say nids are one of the least straight forward dexes, up there with demons, but I wouldn't say its the worst. BT, DA, and Eldar, all the 4th edition dexes, suffer from the 4th edition pricing and mindset that Nids don't suffer from.

His list is suboptimal and tailored to dealing with Nids. I've never seen anyone take a Eradicator, and I'm the only player I've ever seen to seriously consider Hellhounds.

Not to mention all of the ratlings. The only reason to take them is using the sniper rule against MCs, and again, there's better ways to do that.

What you need to do in this case is take some spods. You can't assault out of them, but that cuts down on a turn of him shooting at you, and lets you create your own cover.

Sadly, moar genestealers is always a solution to nid issues. Outflank all of them. Consider a Hive Tyrant with Hive Commander to help ensure all of this stuff actually comes in early.

Finally, his list has two troops in it. Two squishy, squishy troops. 66% of the time, you'll just be able to eat his troops and call it a day.

-make sure you have sufficient terrain, if the IG player is pushing the game towards his style (lots of shoot no terrain) then not only is he not playing fair, but you need to bring venomthropes more than likely

besides this you have several options, all of which involve proxy models until you figure out your playstyle

-Maximium threats, in this type of list you run 1 or 2 large units of gargoyles, a tervigon to give them FNP, units of 8 or so genestealers, and possibly a unit of yargarbl genestealers, outflank stealers, gargoyles provide cover to any hive guard, small mc's, and other elements that power up the middle.
he will have 1, maybe 2 shooting phases (if he goes first) before his entire army is in combat, yargarbl stealers should jump from cover and assault his parking lot with +1str and should be able to destroy a large number of vehicles, gargoyles can surround everything so that troops are destroyed when they can't be deployed from exploding transports, basically turn 2 should remove half his army from the board, or more.
The trick to this is you know how much firepower he has, you need to provide more threats than he can deal with in those 1-2 shooting phases. Trygons are nice, but you can put down almost 20+ wounds of gargoyles for the same points.

and always buy adrenals for gargs and termigaunts unless you are running tervigons

Thanks for the responses!

I figured it seemed very tailored to specifically killing nids. Frustrating seeing as i tried to play nice. I have argued my case for using fair amounts of terrain but the moment anything blocks his line of sight it becomes 'unfair' in his eyes.

would it be better for me to run my trygons up the board or do as i have been and deepstrike them in? Obviously if he keeps his OoF then i cant rely on a 5+ roll to deepstrike very often on turn 2 :/

i tried including 25% terrain and 25% of that LoS blocking and was deemed unfair, am i right in reading this as the guideline minimum?

You need LOS blocking terrain, and if he's complaining, tell him to deal with it. Half of my terrain that I normally play with is LOS blocking, or more. And the rest generally provides cover of some sort as well.

You should have a couple big things in the middle of the board, blocking off shooting lanes and making it so you can hide behind one or two things depending on where you are.

Failing that, try the reserve list and deep striking/outflanking etc. But I wouldn't play someone who was whiny about terrain on the board - it's supposed to be there.

Smokebelch wrote: I assaulted into terrain with a trygon and rolled triple 1 and failed charge.

If you were 1" away when you made this roll, then you should have assaulted anyway because: "...if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if the unit rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test." Page 36

If you were more than 1" away, then no foul.

I would change your Trygons to Mawloc, trust me they F up IG, and outflank your stealers. One thing I'd bring is a Tyrant will Hive Commander. With IG you need to hit him turn 2, when he has 2 Mawlocs and 2 stealers in his line, watch him look at the board and freak.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Niiai wrote:IG is one of the best codexes. Nids is by far the worst codex at the moment. 5th edition suports shooting and transports. You have neather. You do the math. ;-)

I have been playing a lott of tyranids and I can tell you this: I have no advice to give you. You have the hive guards, after that I do not know. If you have modeled the trygons good enough I would perhaps get the gargoyle screen for the 4+ cover save.

PS: You played at 1300 points? No wonder it went bad. Tyranids are cripeled by any game that is under 2000 because of how the how the codex work (you need synapse, gargoyle/gaunt screen, things that take out transports, an AV14 plan, some scoring units etc.) and also at 1300 deployment does not become a problem for your oponent (he can castle up, he does not have to spread out.) Try to get up to a 2000 point, or at the very lest 1750. Do not play nids with less points then that.

Assault has never been as good as it is now, so I somewhat disagree with this take, although vehicles are certainly the crown of 5th edition. I would say nids are one of the least straight forward dexes, up there with demons, but I wouldn't say its the worst. BT, DA, and Eldar, all the 4th edition dexes, suffer from the 4th edition pricing and mindset that Nids don't suffer from.

I am sorry of I am hijacking this thread but assault is not good now. Especialy for the nids. In 4th edition you could recharge into another unit once you killed one, you can not now. Your oponent will probably be using transports with shooting points. Usualy rhinos (all marine codexes) or for this example, chimeras. Okey, so all of them have transports, you runn across the table. Let us asume you get a charge of on turn 2 (I am asuming genestealers probably since the rest have to runn 24"). What your oponent will do is to drive a long way sort of zig sag while the rest of the big guns shoot you. Now you hit on 6's and then you (if you have AG) you need 6 to glance (genestealers penetrate.) Congratulations, they are now in the open on dificult terain. On theyr turn you charge them, strike last because of the dificult terain and then you finaly get to attack. A fantastick trade of for melle units vs a 35 point rhino. True the chimera is 55, but then it come with a heavy flamer (ouch) and a multi laser. The imperial guard will he clinging to his deployment side, and you need to weather 2 rounds of shooting (if it is your turn), charge the transport, kill it, get shot at, and charge on the 3rd turn. It is really terible.

True, you have the hive guards that can take out transports. But that is about it on the shooting side. Biovores who are good vs huge units are useless vs transports. The venom cannon has the -1 to damadge chart, and the lov S increases the chances of glancing so you are looking at -3 on the damadge chart. Other alternative are the tyranofex (a tad expensive) or the zoanthropes (bad vs librarians and low range, but it is good vs landraiders.)

Hitting on 6's, only abel to damadge them if you spend points on adrenaline glands, and only in turn 3 at the soonest does not seem like a good edition for assault in my mind. Of course if you have axes to frag greandes you will have a better chance and if you can deep strike onto the table (daemons) you of course start close to your oponent and you can perhaps shoot open transports.

PS: Oh did i mention that once you have charged and destroyed a transport you are bunched up vs flamers and blast marks. :p

Niiai wrote:
Hitting on 6's, only abel to damadge them if you spend points on adrenaline glands, and only in turn 3 at the soonest does not seem like a good edition for assault in my mind. Of course if you have axes to frag greandes you will have a better chance and if you can deep strike onto the table (daemons) you of course start close to your oponent and you can perhaps shoot open transports.
PS: Oh did i mention that once you have charged and destroyed a transport you are bunched up vs flamers and blast marks. :p

That isn't really a fair arguement.

If the gargoyles/stealers have scattered his vehicles and are now hitting them on 6's, that means they aren't shooting, or the men inside are hopping out, thats a win/win.
Against my old list, lets say I get the first turn. All my gargoyles move up, run, the front swarm gets FNP, a flying tyrant or parasite stays with them, or in my later list i'd just trail a few back to stay in synapse of the tervigon.
The entire game is decided in the first shooting phase, if he can kill a ton of gargoyes and break the screen, its not looking good, on the 2nd turn most reserves should arrive:

Best case:
10 yargarbl stealers assaulting a parking lot out of reserve should wreck or destroy at least 3 vehicles in the assault.
2, 2 or 3 man hive guard squads should each mess up or destroy a vehicle
depending on how many gargoyles make it past turn 1, they may glance down a vehicle or two, they usually just assault and shake vehicles and cause squads whose transports have wrecked to automatically get removed.
small squads of stealers arrive via outflank and assault anything that was deployed on the flanks to avoid the mess of gargoyles, yargarbls and such.

now thats the best case scenario, the rest of the game is largely mopup

But as previously stated, your main problem is the IG player wants you to run across an open plain at his army, this is wrong.

It is not all his vehicles that are driving arund. Only the front line while the back line is shooting. Also, the fact that wehicles get an "ekstra save" in the form of the vehicle damadge table usualy are good news. I am painting a bleak picture here, but I think it is an acurat one.

Niiai wrote:It is not all his vehicles that are driving arund. Only the front line while the back line is shooting. Also, the fact that wehicles get an "ekstra save" in the form of the vehicle damadge table usualy are good news. I am painting a bleak picture here, but I think it is an acurat one.

I understand it, I used to play bugs remember (and currently play guard), but obeying movement rules its kind of hard to move an entire line of vehicles all 12" without passing through one another, and not opening up an area behind them for the gargoyles to hop into and assault from. Not to mention the yargarbles hopping out of a terrain piece "somewhere" and assaulting up to 18" from it. The idea is to put so much pressure on the IG player as fast as possible. Even if you do manage to do it, it is reducing your effective firepower, which buys the tyranid player more time to get the big guns into combat.
Its an uphill fight but it is winnable, imho at 1500-2000 is the only place that tyranids can stand a serious change against most armies.

Sounds like the guard player you are up against is a real asshat who cant stand to loose.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Sounds like the guard player you are up against is a real asshat who cant stand to loose.

It's spelled 'lose', and that's a bit more than just a little judgmental, don't you think?

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Sounds like the guard player you are up against is a real asshat who cant stand to loose.

Bit much, he's my best mate and we're pretty competitive so i dont blame him for trying to win. I do the same, but Im just fighting for whats fair. Im pretty sure I can outsmart him with the tactics but if he wants to design a list tailored to killing me I guess i either have to learn to beat it or tailor my own army but I dont really wanna do that. I just felt like no matter what i threw at him and no matter what lengths i went to to ensure cover I didnt really stand a chance I cant see the compelling side of standing with a gunline and not moving the whole game but each to their own! He seems to enjoy his storm troopers the most, dont blame him!

I'll be aiming for a 1500-1750 list most of the time but I only returned to the hobby in january after an 8 year hiatus so still much to learn i guess!

Is it really that much of an uphill struggle nids vs IG?

Thanks

What ever happened to the ole divvy the board up into four quarters and completely cover one quarter with terrain to ensure there's a proper amount of terrain?

thats what i try to explain to him and he feels its too much. Then i try to set up the board evenly but we argue over where the terrain goes, he ends up putting the biggest bits of terrain in the corners of the map nullifying them. I guess i just need to get him to understand the balance of the game more. Many of the games so far i have tabled him so he may feel somewhat aggrieved. we need to find a way to set up the table impartially :S

Local GW shop is pretty poor for terrain too which probably doesnt aid his judgement!

I'm pretty sure the table quarter being filled with terrain is from the BRB, though I'm at work on my phone so I can't rummage through it atm for you :(.

At the very least, roll a dice and whomever gets the highest roll gets to pick and place the first piece of terrain, alternating between you both untill all theterrain is placed. I can't see how anyone could weasel their way out of that.

If your IG opponent will not play with at least 25% terrain then refuse to play him. He already has a big enough advantage. There should be some big pieces in the middle of the table. He is really screwing you as it is now.

Page 88, under How Much Terrain? is what mentions the 25% rule. In case you need a citation.

Smokebelch wrote:

Is it really that much of an uphill struggle nids vs IG?

bugs struggle with armor, IG has a ton of armor

Hello Tyranids. Look at your army. Now back to IG. Now back to your army. Now back to IG. Sadly, it isn't IG, but if it could kill tanks it could beat IG. Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're at a desk with your army's unit selection in front of you. What's in your hand? Back at IG. Now they have to deal with it, it's a Zoanthrope, and it's blasting their AV 14 tanks to pieces. Look again, the one Zoanthrope is now three. Anything is possible when your Zoanthropes are dropping in in Mycetic Spores and not getting sniped from across the board before they get there. I'm on a Mawloc. I'd also like to recommend a lot more Genestealers and that you take a Hive Tyrant with wings and Hive Commander.

Grundz wrote:

Niiai wrote:It is not all his vehicles that are driving arund. Only the front line while the back line is shooting. Also, the fact that wehicles get an "ekstra save" in the form of the vehicle damadge table usualy are good news. I am painting a bleak picture here, but I think it is an acurat one.

I understand it, I used to play bugs remember (and currently play guard), but obeying movement rules its kind of hard to move an entire line of vehicles all 12" without passing through one another, and not opening up an area behind them for the gargoyles to hop into and assault from. Not to mention the yargarbles hopping out of a terrain piece "somewhere" and assaulting up to 18" from it. The idea is to put so much pressure on the IG player as fast as possible. Even if you do manage to do it, it is reducing your effective firepower, which buys the tyranid player more time to get the big guns into combat.
Its an uphill fight but it is winnable, imho at 1500-2000 is the only place that tyranids can stand a serious change against most armies.

I remember. :-) I also liked your advice, it is still sound, I am just trying to let him understand just where the problem in the matchup lies, and you other people are very good at giving him tips. I am probably not helping that mutch though.

Captain Destructo is quite onto something with his perfect interpetation of the old spice comersial. You just need the power of posetive thinking. If ou are walking down the road of genestealer outflanking I would probably do something like:

The swarmlord, 2 tyrant guards

2/3 hive guards
2/3 hive guards
3 zoanthropes (in case of the dreaded AP14)

Troops one tervigon (for feel no pain) behind the hiveguards, and then make some gaunts in front with a "tail" so that they get AG and TS.

The rest of the list you load up on genstealers who can get fursius charge from the swarmlord, or you can re-roll the outflank dice.

Captain Destructo wrote:Hello Tyranids. Look at your army. Now back to IG. Now back to your army. Now back to IG. Sadly, it isn't IG, but if it could kill tanks it could beat IG. Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're at a desk with your army's unit selection in front of you. What's in your hand? Back at IG. Now they have to deal with it, it's a Zoanthrope, and it's blasting their AV 14 tanks to pieces. Look again, the one Zoanthrope is now three. Anything is possible when your Zoanthropes are dropping in in Mycetic Spores and not getting sniped from across the board before they get there. I'm on a Mawloc. I'd also like to recommend a lot more Genestealers and that you take a Hive Tyrant with wings and Hive Commander.

I'm an IG player and I still found that awesome. Helpful and hilarious!

I can't offer much for nid's but I know as a guard guy, we can throw so much armor up its not even funny. If you dont have multiple redundant ways of dealing with AV 12-14, you WILL lose, as much as I hate to say it.

And yeah, his list looks heavily tailored to nids, and the fact that he changed the point amount on the spot as well as removed terrain kind of paints an iffy picture of whether he was playing to be fair.

Make him play with terrain, a big open board with nothing on it is not only boring but I'm pretty sure it's against the rules. He can whine and stop his feet all he wants, but if you have to, check with the book and show him that you're supposed to have terrain. Make him fight your fight as well. IG sucks at close combat, and his list doesn't even have the most passable form of it (powerblobs) get him stuck in close, and he'll be done in no time. Also, remember that those Leman russes have AV14 on the front and 13 from the side, but the back is only 10 (11 on the Punisher/demolisher/and another I cant remember at the moment) if you can figure out a way to get your anti armor so that its behind his tanks, he's screwed. As far as I know, none of the IG armor pool has rear armor over 11, so that can really ruin his day regardless of what it is.

Hopefully this helps some!

For tyranids, I am a huge fan of the swarmlord with some tyrant guard as your primary HQ. He helps your reserve rolls, he helps your outflank, large synapse range, and special rules that make some units far better.

Coupled with 2 units of 3 hive guard, and either 10 Ymgarl stealers or 3 zoans in a spore pod (they both cost 230, so are fairly modular units that strike from reserve) and you have a decent base.

After that, fill your troops selection. 2x10 gants and 2 tervigons are very solid for your base. I like genestealers with a broodlord after that. Infiltrating 2 units of 7 stealers and a broodlord means that on turn 2 the guard will be getting assaulted. And since many guard lists feature heavily on anti-vehicle weapons, having 20 t4+ wounds of cc death in cover and in position to assault on turn 2 really divides their attention. Do they shoot the deadly swarmlord, the buffing/spawning tervigons, the shooting hiveguard, or the swarm of infantry in their face? No matter what they go after, you will be left with units that can kill guard tanks and infantry.

Wow thank you everyone for the responses,

On Zoanthropes - I have had such limited success with them as they need psychic test - hit - penetrate - damage table. For a single shot thats alot to get through and I have a way of failing miserably! - Maybe I've just had bad experiences. But statistically a Zoan will penetrate an armour 12+ tank 30% of the time and destroy it 10.2% of the time (roughly)

Math = pass leadership*hit*pen*destroy

=(33/36)*(4/6)*(3/6)*(2/6)

i think thats right? and that seems remarkably unreliable :S

7 automatic hits from a Trygon with AG nearly fails me regularly enough!

Swarmlord does sound interesting as do Tervigons, hadnt really understood they could be troops properly! In kill point games do they have to spawn termagants or can you choose not to? Hope they release some models soon because my converting skills are most probably lacklustre!

Any tips on setting up the board? I think im gonna show him some pics of some board setups to educate him!

Thanks again

Remember zoans are best used hunting av14.

Also, its 11/12 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 to kill. So a 20% chance to pen/kill at 18 inches. Thats some of the best odds in the game. A melta in 6 inches is at 19%, and that is only within 6 inches.

It's not 2/3 to get a destroyed result - its 1/2 (3/6) due to the AP1. 2/3 would be right against squadrons though.

The thing with the zoanthropes is that it is the easiest way (read cheapest point vice) to deal with landraiders. They have an 18" range, BS4, S10 and Lance, it really is quite amasing, and the AP1 really helps.

Your alternatives are Tyranofex 265 points, BS 3, S10, no lance, no AP 1. (Worse.)

On the CC department you really do need re-rolls to hit and the only serius contesters is the carnifex with re-rolls and S10, however he does not have fleet, and he costs some 40 points to mutch. And the trygon that has 7 attacks on the charge, rerolls to hit, but he is only S7 with the AG. The rests of the MC's realy are not up for it.

A list i got sugested by Kirby 3++ is the new black:

1 Hive Tyrant (Heavy Venom Cannon, Whip/Sword, Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Leech Essence)
2 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
1 Tervigon (Cluster Spines, Catalyst, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands)
1 Tervigon (as above, minus Adrenal Glands)
1 Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon, Dessicator Larvae, Cluster Spines)
1 Tyrannofex (as above)

I have not tryed it yet, I am curently getting some space wolves ready for a tournament, but what that list does is that it stack everything behind each other giving it coversaves. If you do meet a landraider and the tyranofexes does not kill it, or if you have better things to kill you can use the gaunts as a screen for the terminators. Do not let them charge trough. Then when it is your turn spawn some new once, make a shield wall again, and hit the temrinators with paroxysem bringing them down to WS1.

I know shooting nids make no sence, but it actualy seems pretty good since it really packs quite a punch in the shooting phase, and with the units being so tight together you have a lott of funn from old advesary! :-)