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What currency does the Imperium use?
Do they have a central bank?
If yes, how can it possibly regulate money supply on such a vast scale?
If no, what's to stop the collapse of industry caused by an unregulated money supply?
What is wealth relative to? Xenos currency? Surely not. Mineral wealth? It would make Ron Paul happy, but it doesn't work.
Or do different planets have their own currencies? In which case how are tithes settled without the planet simply printing money to pay the Imperium?

I saw a thread about this a while ago and i think it was agreed on that most worlds would use their own currency local to them. Tis a shame we don't have the might sophistication of orks, pulling out their Teef! every time they get poor

There is trade wihtin the imperium so there is an exchange rate for goods. I don;t imagine that there is central bank, as you say it would be even more ungovernable than the rest of the system, so each planet/system/locality must have its own form of currency.

Regarding tithes, they are always in goods or services, rather than money. Each planetary governor needs to provide as much of their resources as possible for the greater imperium. That could be manpower, food, minerals or whatever the local sector requires. Its up to the Administratum to determine what is a fair tithe and up to the governor to provide or else

Flinty wrote:There is trade wihtin the imperium so there is an exchange rate for goods. I don;t imagine that there is central bank, as you say it would be even more ungovernable than the rest of the system, so each planet/system/locality must have its own form of currency.

Regarding tithes, they are always in goods or services, rather than money. Each planetary governor needs to provide as much of their resources as possible for the greater imperium. That could be manpower, food, minerals or whatever the local sector requires. Its up to the Administratum to determine what is a fair tithe and up to the governor to provide or else

So...they still use a barter system? Lolwhat?

Basically, yeah. The Imperium isn't an economy, really. There are economies in it, but the government as a whole is only interested in the weapons, supplies, and soldiers.

The universal "currencies" of the Imperium are natural resources, food, human bodies. The Chartist Captains of the Merchant Fleets get quite rich selling and moving these goods.

All planets but feral worlds probably maintain some kind of local currency.

Arturius wrote:Basically, yeah. The Imperium isn't an economy, really. There are economies in it, but the government as a whole is only interested in the weapons, supplies, and soldiers.

That's still an economy. Wealth is just a representation of those goods and services produced.
$7bn worth of steel is the same as $7bn.
The Imperium demands resources without any universal way of judging the quality of them or the amount of labour that has produced them. That couldn't possibly work.
Planet A produces 500million tonnes of rubbish iron in a year, Planet B produces 100 million tonnes of high quality iron per year. Howyougonnajudge?
The Soviet Union collapsed because it couldn't ajust itself to changes in economic conditions, the Imperium would collapse even harder without an external source of wealth and innovation.

"If you give us this crap iron again, we will bomb your capital city until the glass glows in the dark, and use the bones of your family as mortar for the next Planetary Governor's palace so they remember not to make the same mistake. Same time next year!"

And remember that 'innovation' in the Imperium is (wait for it) HERESY!

Arturius wrote:"If you give us this crap iron again, we will bomb your capital city until the glass glows in the dark, and use the bones of your family as mortar for the next Planetary Governor's palace so they remember not to make the same mistake. Same time next year!"

And remember that 'innovation' in the Imperium is (wait for it) HERESY!

How will they know it's crap quality before the decade-long report is finished?
Say the processing plants on the planet became less efficient. Without market forces, there's nothing to represent this. You can't exactly blame the planet itself for the goods it produces when there is no way of measuring the quality in the first place.
Seems strange that a futuristic society is reliant on pre-historic trading techniques that fail to support even basic agrarian societies.

It's almost as if the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, so helplessly overburdened by its massive size that entire solar systems are 'lost' because of rounding errors...

Also worth noting that the Tithes, as they're usually presented, are less 'raw iron' and more finished materiel. Guns. Tanks. Food.

And bodies. Mostly what the Imperium demands is bodies.

Arturius wrote:It's almost as if the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, so helplessly overburdened by its massive size that entire solar systems are 'lost' because of rounding errors...

But without a centralised rate of exchange no exchange of goods or labour is possible at all.

Arturius wrote:
Also worth noting that the Tithes, as they're usually presented, are less 'raw iron' and more finished materiel. Guns. Tanks. Food.

And bodies. Mostly what the Imperium demands is bodies.

All of which have a material cost. Including humans. Every man on the battlefield is a man NOT working the foundry, yet all men on the battlefield are more or less even. If a man on one planet generates $50,000 per year, while a man on another planet generates $5,000 a year, setting a flat rate for tithes is economic madness.
Reminds me of Imperial Britain. There's a reason they got the Scots and the Irish to fight their wars rather than skilled craftsmen in the cities.
A galactic empire is not difficult without a universal currency, it's impossible.

I remember this fun little tidbit from Rogue tRader (the 1st edition one)

Electoos also utilise crystal technology, but involve a lot more work and a great deal of skill to create. An inert layer of conductive material is inserted beneath the skin, sometimes it is injected and allowed time to form before the process can continue. Crystal stacks are built up on this film and waste material is dissoived out. The Electoo can then be programmed to function as any control or monitoring device. On Earth everyone carries an electoo containing personal details, credit ratings, security grades and details of social record - these act as police files and automatic credit facilities. Sensors at building entrances read the details of every electoo carrying individual that passes them - so a constant record can be build up of anyone's movements. Similarly when an individual buys anything, a till-sensor automatically modifies the credit rating of the electoo accordingly. The system is also used throughout the Adeptus Terra and on some imperial worlds either generally or within specific social levels.

Considering Electoos are still around and given the FFG stuff pertaining ot Throne Gelt, it seems it woudl work for the Imperium 'at large'.

So...there IS a universal currency?

I sort of assume the AdMech to be sort of a MegaCorp. You know technology and such. Plus it will also explain the holding back of technology. Of course that's just me assuming things, nothing else.

Administratorum likely controls the money, I guess we have freedom enough to call it whatever we see fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:So...there IS a universal currency?

Hardly. I think there are many currencies inside the IoM.

It says 'some worlds,' so no, not a universal currency.

And, generally, I think there's a disconnect in how the tithes work. I'm sure the local Administratum works with whatever the local currency/currencies are in their jurisdiction, but in general, the Imperium is not involved in an equivalent exchange of goods. It's a tithe. The worlds surrender their tithes to the Imperial governance, and in return they get to be not bombed into the stone age. They aren't traded for, they are taken.

The details are, almost certainly, determined through some byzantine process that may well involve centuries-old surveying and census data. But the end result is that the Imperial war machine needs a constant supply of finished goods.

Thrones are the universal currencey.

Arturius wrote:It says 'some worlds,' so no, not a universal currency.

And, generally, I think there's a disconnect in how the tithes work. I'm sure the local Administratum works with whatever the local currency/currencies are in their jurisdiction, but in general, the Imperium is not involved in an equivalent exchange of goods. It's a tithe. The worlds surrender their tithes to the Imperial governance, and in return they get to be not bombed into the stone age. They aren't traded for, they are taken.

The details are, almost certainly, determined through some byzantine process that may well involve centuries-old surveying and census data. But the end result is that the Imperial war machine needs a constant supply of finished goods.

Yet without a free market they have no way of judging the quality of these goods! It would quickly end up like the Soviet Union, but much, much worse. Imagine how much money a Leman Russ would cost to produce. Now imagine you don't get paid a penny for doing it. Yeah that's going to be a massive incentive to keep the quality up...

Well... yes. The Grim Darkness of the Far Future is a nightmarish hellhole. Planets get lost because of rounding errors in the accounting.

The individual planets, sectors, whatever, run on some sort of market economy. They have a local currency and system. The Imperium, as a whole, takes its tithes from the market economies, on the premise of "give us quality equipment, and trained soldiers, or we will execute you in front of a packed stadium audience and give your job to someone who will." It's not like the Imperium has difficulty getting personnel; the one thing they're never short on are human bodies.

Arturius wrote:Well... yes. The Grim Darkness of the Far Future is a nightmarish hellhole. Planets get lost because of rounding errors in the accounting.

The individual planets, sectors, whatever, run on some sort of market economy. They have a local currency and system. The Imperium, as a whole, takes its tithes from the market economies, on the premise of "give us quality equipment, and trained soldiers, or we will execute you in front of a packed stadium audience and give your job to someone who will." It's not like the Imperium has difficulty getting personnel; the one thing they're never short on are human bodies.

Except a system like that would drive itself to collapse in less than a century. People irl don't use currency because they love paper, they use it because it's useful. There's a massive hole in the 40k lore where fiscal information should be.

But the Imperium, again, doesn't work on exchange. It takes what it wants at gunpoint. The economic details are worked out on the local level.

In general, you're looking in the wrong place if you expect sense and consistency from 40K. Even so, I think you're thinking of empire as much more centralized than the Imperium is intended to be. Plenty of empires collected tribute from numerous tributaries, without placing everyone involved on a unified currency.

Joey wrote:So...they still use a barter system? Lolwhat?

It is the inevitable end of economic advancement.

Joey wrote:$7bn worth of steel is the same as $7bn. The Imperium demands resources without any universal way of judging the quality of them or the amount of labour that has produced them. That couldn't possibly work.

$7bn worth of steel is not the same as $7bn. If I need to produce a lot of weapons and tanks, then $7bn is useless to me. I need the actual steel. And if I can get that steel without having to spend $7bn, then so much the better. If I can get everything I need without spending any money, then what use do I have for money?

The Imperium has needs. It assesses the ability of individual planets to meet those needs, and then sets a tithe. Judging quality is a separate issue to monetary value, and the amount of labour required.

I really don't see how this is such a problem.

Local economies can run however they like. But with an administration like the Imperium, the idea of some kind of galactic 'exchange rate' is not necessary.

Kaldor wrote:

It is the inevitable end of economic advancement.

Uhh. How is it? What about the rate of economic advance suggests to you the demise of wealth?

Kaldor wrote:
$7bn worth of steel is not the same as $7bn. If I need to produce a lot of weapons and tanks, then $7bn is useless to me. I need the actual steel. And if I can get that steel without having to spend $7bn, then so much the better. If I can get everything I need without spending any money, then what use do I have for money?

You can't steal from yourself. It's why the government taxes its civilians to pay for services rather than simply demanding their labour (other than in times of total war).
Goods have to be exchangable. The Germans ignored this during the war and as such would have collapsed economically eventually. Once goods cease to be exchangable for other goods or services their production becomes economically abhorant.

The Imperium is always in a state of total war. Always.

Again, you're looking at the Imperium as a state government managing an economy, rather than as a distant empire demanding tribute at gunpoint.

Arturius wrote:The Imperium is always in a state of total war. Always.

It's not. Read any fluff set in the Imperium. A majority of plantets are relatively peaceful most of the time. Hive planets in particular just couldn't survive in a state of total war.

Arturius wrote:
Again, you're looking at the Imperium as a state government managing an economy, rather than as a distant empire demanding tribute at gunpoint.

A Forgeworld couldn't devote its entire production towards making war engines for an entity that didn't pay for them. What do you think would happen if you took say ~60% of the economic produce of a nation and threw it into the sea? That can't happen. A factory cannot pay its workers if it isn't receiving money for its produce. Factory workers in 40k fluff DO get paid, so where does that money come from?

Joey wrote:Uhh. How is it? What about the rate of economic advance suggests to you the demise of wealth?

Because you can't eat money, or wear it. At some point, the massive variances between currencies will cease to exist, as the world becomes more and more connected. Sooner or later there will only be one currency.

You can't steal from yourself. It's why the government taxes its civilians to pay for services rather than simply demanding their labour (other than in times of total war).
Goods have to be exchangable. The Germans ignored this during the war and as such would have collapsed economically eventually. Once goods cease to be exchangable for other goods or services their production becomes economically abhorant.

If a hive world 'gives' all their product to the Imperium, whats the harm?

The Imperium doesn't take the entire production capacity of a planet. It takes a portion. That's what a tithe is.

Joey wrote:

Arturius wrote:The Imperium is always in a state of total war. Always.

It's not. Read any fluff set in the Imperium. A majority of plantets are relatively peaceful most of the time. Hive planets in particular just couldn't survive in a state of total war.

Arturius wrote:
Again, you're looking at the Imperium as a state government managing an economy, rather than as a distant empire demanding tribute at gunpoint.

A Forgeworld couldn't devote its entire production towards making war engines for an entity that didn't pay for them. What do you think would happen if you took say ~60% of the economic produce of a nation and threw it into the sea? That can't happen. A factory cannot pay its workers if it isn't receiving money for its produce. Factory workers in 40k fluff DO get paid, so where does that money come from?

The obligations between worlds are more in the guise of feudal obligations rather than financial contracts, even though technically they might be done through the medium of Chartist captain traders.

The forgeworlds of the Imperium (technically the Adeptus Mechanicus) produce goods for the Imperium, which the Imperium takes as the equivalent of taxes. In return, other worlds elsewhere that mine minerals or produce food have their resources taken from them by the Administratum or through a Chartist captain and then hauled to the Forgeworld. The Chartist captain and his family could have been on the same contract for generations, running the same routes over and over. The workers at the forgeworld (those that aren't servitors) are "paid" in the necessities of life (food, water, housing). There isn't any universal currency in the Imperium but there certainly appear to be local planetary and sector currencies. Workers might perhaps be paid in that, if they are paid at all. Remember that for the most part, these menial workers in the Imperium are like medieval serfs. Their labor is not their own and part of what they "receive" in return is supposedly protection by their lords.

Joey wrote:So...there IS a universal currency?

Going purely by what was written by the studio, the Imperium doesn't care at all how one of its member worlds manages its economy, what type of currency it uses (if it uses one at all) or what form of government it takes. All the Imperium requires is worship to the Emperor, acceptance of the authority of the various Imperial Adepta, and the willingness to pay tithes.
A universal currency would require a central authority to manage exchange rates for a million worlds, which would have to be updated in a regular fashion. Given that the Administratum and the Munitorum do not even manage to keep track of all the Imperial Guard regiments raised throughout Imperial space, how should they tackle such a monumental task as enforcing a universal currency? Travel times and communication are simply too unreliable to manage this sort of thing. Even on a Segmentum Level, the Imperial leaders aren't able to coordinate the movements of all the forces under their command, making regimental officers quite independent (which is how they can get away with simply volunteering their troops for a Ministorum Crusade).

Under these difficult conditions, barter does seem to be like the best possible way to resolve interplanetary trade.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thrones are the universal currencey.

No such thing as "Thrones" is showing up in any of the GW books (in fact, GW's Necromunda uses "Credits" as local currency), and the licensed material follows only the interpretation of whoever writes it.

There is no such thing as a "canon" in this setting, which means that there will be countless opinions (barter, scrip, Thrones, Credits, etc) all depending on which source you are looking at. Just pick one you like, but be aware of the contradictions and the absence of any absolutes.

Capitalism breeds desire of the material goods.

EXTRA HERETICAL

Joey wrote:A Forgeworld couldn't devote its entire production towards making war engines for an entity that didn't pay for them. What do you think would happen if you took say ~60% of the economic produce of a nation and threw it into the sea? That can't happen. A factory cannot pay its workers if it isn't receiving money for its produce. Factory workers in 40k fluff DO get paid, so where does that money come from?

A forgeworld doesn't need money. It needs supplies and resources.