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So, this is in regards to how the grave chute insertion rule of the valkyrie interacts with this FAQ:

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

The grave chute rule states that "If the valkyrie has moved flat out, passengers may still disembark, but must do so as follows.".

Does this mean that valkyrie passengers are not affected by the FAQ? Going by the wording I would think that they are immune. Furthermore, if the passengers disembark using the grave chute rule, they could disembark anywhere along the flight path of the valkyrie. This looks like the correct interpretation but am I missing anything?

No - if a vehicle is destroyed you cannot use the vehicles special rules - meaning no grav chute.

rigeld2 wrote:No - if a vehicle is destroyed you cannot use the vehicles special rules - meaning no grav chute.

I would disagree with that. It's still treated as a vehicle up until the unit climbs out, otherwise there would be no way to ever get out of a destroyed transport.

The only reason that passengers are destroyed with the flat out transport is that passengers normally can't disembark from a flat out transport.
The Grav Chute rule allows disembarkation from a flat out transport.

So it's different from the frag launchers on a land raider?
I get what you're saying - but I'm not sure I buy it.
Disembarking because the vehicle is destroyed is the same thing as voluntary disembarking.

rigeld2 wrote:So it's different from the frag launchers on a land raider?
I get what you're saying - but I'm not sure I buy it.
Disembarking because the vehicle is destroyed is the same thing as voluntary disembarking.

The difference for frag launchers is that it is a separate event. A Land Raider being destroyed, and then you assault something in the following assault phase, is quite a bit different than a vehicle being destroyed and forcing you to disembark.

Also, if you are claiming that vehicle special rules disappear when the vehicle is destroyed, there's a fairly good argument to be made that Ramshackle doesn't do anything.

Except Ramshackle explicitly works when the vehicle is destroyed.

A different phase shouldn't matter - the rule was satisfied, it's just that vehicle wargear stops working when it's destroyed.

I'm willing to concede if I'm the only one thinking this way.

Don't the models disembark just before the transport is destroyed? If they did it after it was destroyed then there would be all sorts of headaches, as there would be no access points or indeed vehicle to disembark from.

In fact, the wrecked result on page 67 states that passengers disembark and then "After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.".

Fair enough. I'll concede. I think it's stupid, but it's the rules.

Same logic applies to Stormravens. Because you can disembark from a Stormraven which has moved flat out. Don't even have special equipment to muddy the argument.

Just wanted to point out that it is only in the Movement Phase. After that they may exit normally. So this really only applies to circumstances such as you attempted ramming and lost which take place in the movement phase irrc.

On your opponents turn, if they shoot at your Valkyrie, and it is wrecked or exploded and your unit survives, your units may disembark.

WH40k BRB official update 1.5
"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."

The timing on this seems to be
1) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
2) embarked passengers disembark

Which, if that order is correct, means a grav chute wouldn't work.

And stormchickens can also dump cargo when they go flat out?
Whys everyone so scared about being destroyed while flag out then? All you lose is the vehicle and maybe some infantry models... Which, while not ideal, isn't the 6-700 point loss it feels like people make it out to be.

rigeld2 wrote:Which, if that order is correct, means a grav chute wouldn't work.

And stormchickens can also dump cargo when they go flat out?
Whys everyone so scared about being destroyed while flag out then? All you lose is the vehicle and maybe some infantry models... Which, while not ideal, isn't the 6-700 point loss it feels like people make it out to be.

Remember also that this only applies if the vehicle in question is destroyed in its own movement phase, not the following turn. But yeah, point taken.

foolishmortal wrote:WH40k BRB official update 1.5
"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."

The timing on this seems to be
1) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
2) embarked passengers disembark

I don't think you can make such timing ruling from that FAQ text. The "embarked passengers" in this case means "passengers, who were embarked at the time of ramming enemy vehicle" or "passengers that were embarked when LRC suffered destroyed result".

You can just as well make following timing from that faq entry:
1) Embarked passengers disembark
2) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
3) Everything else will happen after point 2 anyway

foolishmortal wrote:The timing on this seems to be
1) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
2) embarked passengers disembark

I don't get that from the FAQ response you quoted at all.

All that is saying is that the unit won't benefit from the vehicle's special rules later. If the Frag Launchers had an effect as the passengers disembark, that FAQ response would be a useful precedent, but as it is, it covers a completely different situation.

If you declare before rolling for dangerous terrain that you will disembark using the chute, I would allow it even if the valk gets destroyed. If you roll for dangerous and the valk gets immobilised, then the passengers would get removed as normal.

foolishmortal wrote:WH40k BRB official update 1.5
The timing on this seems to be
1) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
2) embarked passengers disembark

Except the vehicle isnt destroyed (wrecked) until *after* the passengers have disembarked. Read the sequencing in the ruebook

On an *explodes* result the vehicle is destroyed and the unit are placed where the vehicle used to be. This is not disembarking. In this case the vehicle will have been destroyed before the unit attempts to leave, meaning no special rules exist according to the FAQ, so the unit would be destroyed.

Luide wrote:You can just as well make following timing from that faq entry:
1) Embarked passengers disembark
2) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
3) Everything else will happen after point 2 anyway

I disagree sir. While I can see that my interpretation is not pedantically spelled out by any particular GW rules reference, I believe it is the more consistent and logical possibility. I will try to clarify.

p66 BRB - top right - embarked passengers are forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed

p67 BRB - the destroyed - wrecked result forces passengers to disembark

p83 SM:Codex - Models disembarking from any access point on the assault vehicle can launch an assault on the turn they do so

WH40k BRB official update 1.5
"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."

If the passenger disembarked and then the vehicle was destroyed, what would prevent them from assaulting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:WH40k BRB official update 1.5
The timing on this seems to be
1) vehicle is destroyed, losing all special abilities
2) embarked passengers disembark

Except the vehicle isnt destroyed (wrecked) until *after* the passengers have disembarked. Read the sequencing in the ruebook.

No, the wreck is not placed until after the passengers disembarked. This is not the same thing as being destroyed. Placing a wreck is not even necessary if the player does not have one.

Except that is how it works on a wrecked result. The vehicle is destroyed after the passengers disembark.

Additionally - the FAQ still prevents them from assaulting.

p61 BRB

Destroyed - Wrecked
The attack critically damages the hull and internal
systems- the vehicle is destroyed. The model is left
in place and becomes a wreck (see page 62),

Destroyed - Explodes
The vehicle is destroyed, as its fuel and ammo
detonate, ripping it apart in a spectacular explosion.
Flaming debris is scattered d6 " from the vehicle.
and models in range suffer a Strength 3, AP- hit.
The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an
area of difficult ground representing scattered
wreckage or a crater (if you have one).

Page 67, Destroyed - Wrecked. Read it.

The point is the assault vehicle rule of the LR takes effect the moment the unit disembarks. If you say that in the case the vehicle gets destroyed, its special rules stop to be in effect after the unit has disembarked you go against the FAQ.

WH40k BRB official update 1.5
"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."


This FAQ? THat says the exact, literal opposite to what you just posted?

foolishmortal wrote:
If the passenger disembarked and then the vehicle was destroyed, what would prevent them from assaulting?

The FAQ, obviously. Disembarking is not assaulting. Any assaults would happen after LRC has become a wreck anyway.
Note that same thing would apply in following scenario: Movement phase, I drive LRC 12" forward and I disembark my terminators. Shooting phase, my Vindicator shot scatters into LRC and destroys it. Assault phase, my terminators are now unable to launch assault.

Besides, like nos said, pg 67 brb:
"Destroyed - wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."

So if the vehicle is wrecked, RAW is 100% clear.
1) Passengers disembark.
2) Vehicle becomes a wreck, losing all its special abilities.

foolishmortal wrote:
No, the wreck is not placed until after the passengers disembarked. This is not the same thing as being destroyed. Placing a wreck is not even necessary if the player does not have one.

Wreck is not "placed" and having one is absolutely necessary. I assume you were talking about craters in case vehicle is destroyed?

Now, if the vehicle suffers "destroyed - explodes" result, you might actually be right about the order of operations
Pg 61
"The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one)."
pg 67
"The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test."

Technically I'm not sure are the passengers considered disembarking "explodes" result anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 67, Destroyed - Wrecked. Read it.

This?
"Destroyed - wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test . Any models that cannot disembark
are destroyed . After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."

So after the vehicle is destroyed, passenger disembark, take a tinning test, etc, finally the destroyed vehicle (model) becomes a wreck.

Unlike wounded infantry models which are removed from the table as casualties (p24 BRB), destroyed vehicle models are left on the table (p62 BRB) as wrecks unless otherwise instructed - for example by page 62, Destroyed - Explodes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:Note that same thing would apply in following scenario: Movement phase, I drive LRC 12" forward and I disembark my terminators. Shooting phase, my Vindicator shot scatters into LRC and destroys it. Assault phase, my terminators are now unable to launch assault.

Seriously? The infantry unit's ability to assault is allowed or disallowed strictly by the status of the transport they used to be in, not the rules in effect when they disembarked? Seriously?

Luide wrote:Wreck is not "placed" and having one is absolutely necessary. I assume you were talking about craters in case vehicle is destroyed?

Yep, my bad.

Luide wrote:Technically I'm not sure are the passengers considered disembarking "explodes" result anyway.

This isn't a necessary point for the OP question. A vehicle moving flat out turns an immobilized (4) into a destroyed - wrecked (5). Considering Destroyed - Explodes! (6) is interesting, but not part of the OP's question.

copper.talos wrote:The point is the assault vehicle rule of the LR takes effect the moment the unit disembarks. If you say that in the case the vehicle gets destroyed, its special rules stop to be in effect after the unit has disembarked you go against the FAQ.

No Assault vehicle, nor Frag launchers, do not take effect the moment the unit disembarks; those rules do not take effect until they are used.

If assault vehicle were to take effect the moment the unit disembarks then you are skipping right over your shooting phase(sorry every other unit in the army; but we have to assault right now).

This is exactly the difference between these special rules and special rules that are applied upon destruction(forced disembark; ramshackle, specific explosion rules a'la S-H Apoc-explodes, etc). A special rule that comes into effect from receiving a "Destroyed-Wrecked" or "Destroyed-Explodes" result on the damage table is always going to come into effect(and special disembarkation rules count for "Destroyed-Wrecked", possibly "Explodes" as well). A special rule that happens after the destruction of the vehicle removes any and all special rules dependent on that vehicle.

Consider it this way: you have a LRC that has been immobilized by a MC standing behind it. There was a close combat unit inside and they disembark, move and assault a unit of squishy critters hiding in cover(from front base to front base there is exactly 1", and the area terrain:cover starts halfway between CC-unit and nearest squishy-critter; the assault will happen. The close combat unit does not have assault grenades). When it comes time to fight the combats; depending on whether you allow the MC to attack the land raider first, or after the CC-unit hits the squishy-critters will determine whether or not the CC-unit fights last or at initiative(the assault ramps/vehicle rule having already come into effect via their assaulting).

Edit for follow-up:

foolishmortal wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 67, Destroyed - Wrecked. Read it.

This?
"Destroyed - wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test . Any models that cannot disembark
are destroyed . After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."

So after the vehicle is destroyed, passenger disembark, take a tinning test, etc, finally the destroyed vehicle (model) becomes a wreck.

Unlike wounded infantry models which are removed from the table as casualties (p24 BRB), destroyed vehicle models are left on the table (p62 BRB) as wrecks unless otherwise instructed - for example by page 62, Destroyed - Explodes.

You are under a false-assumption here(and thank you for the last line here which clarifies your false-assumption); A destroyed result is not a state of being. Non-vehicle models just get destroyed; Vehicle models are destroyed in 1 of 2 ways(wrecked or Explode)

The vehicle receives a Destroyed-wrecked result, passengers disembark, take test, finally the vehicle enters into the destroyed stated of being "wrecked".

Just to reiterate: "Destroyed-wrecked" is a Dice result, not a state of being; the states of being for destroyed vehicles are either wrecks, or removed from table.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Consider it this way: you have a LRC that has been immobilized by a MC standing behind it. There was a close combat unit inside and they disembark, move and assault a unit of squishy critters hiding in cover(from front base to front base there is exactly 1", and the area terrain:cover starts halfway between CC-unit and nearest squishy-critter; the assault will happen. The close combat unit does not have assault grenades). When it comes time to fight the combats; depending on whether you allow the MC to attack the land raider first, or after the CC-unit hits the squishy-critters will determine whether or not the CC-unit fights last or at initiative(the assault ramps/vehicle rule having already come into effect via their assaulting).

This is a truly great example. Thank you. Did you come up with this or are you citing something? Either way, is there a GW ruling on it?

foolishmortal wrote:Placing a wreck is not even necessary if the player does not have one.

Not that it pertains to the argument at hand, but placing a wreck is not optional. You're thinking of a crater, which is placed if you have one.

foolishmortal wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Consider it this way: you have a LRC that has been immobilized by a MC standing behind it. There was a close combat unit inside and they disembark, move and assault a unit of squishy critters hiding in cover(from front base to front base there is exactly 1", and the area terrain:cover starts halfway between CC-unit and nearest squishy-critter; the assault will happen. The close combat unit does not have assault grenades). When it comes time to fight the combats; depending on whether you allow the MC to attack the land raider first, or after the CC-unit hits the squishy-critters will determine whether or not the CC-unit fights last or at initiative(the assault ramps/vehicle rule having already come into effect via their assaulting).

This is a truly great example. Thank you. Did you come up with this or are you citing something? Either way, is there a GW ruling on it?

All me; but I have a friend who constantly tries to throw the strangest circumstances at me for when he is asking about rules combinations, so I now naturally gravitate towards the peculiarities in examples.

with the event of the quake staff and c'tan dangerous terrain rules, this has actually come up a few times now. We've been playing it that if your stormchicken/valk wrecks itself, you get to do your grav'chute or storm/blood skies deep strike disembark then the bird crashes at the side of the flat out accident event (declare where it was going to be and place the wreckage at that location)

The only debate is that one guy insists that you take one dangerous terrain check test at the start, and then one more at the end of the movement. We argue on this because the book says "if you begin or end etc, you take a dangerous terrain test"

I am on the side that says you just take a single test. The other guy insists you take one for each part of the movement you are in terrain. (usually we decide it on a roll off) though I am curious to what you guys think