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This is probably going to be controversial, but I'd be interested in hearing feedback from those who've consistently been in the hobby for longer than I. Did GW used to hold more to SM's being Rabid Fundamentalist Space Fascists* in their presentation, and less Buzz Lightyear with Guns? They seem to have always been the former when you wade into the fluff, but they're presented as almost unambiguously good on the surface media (imagery, videogames, advertising). Looking around GW stores and events, that seems to be the face they're presenting now to attract kids and their parents. SM's seem to have gone through the Judge Dredd effect, where a Fascist antihero ends up being whitewashed into Lawful Good But Maybe a Bit Over-Enthusiastic. The same thing happened to Starship Troopers; satirical* account of militaristic dystopia becomes so watered down it becomes (literally) a Saturday morning cartoon about brave soldiers fighting evil.

I'm not talking about the Black Library stuff here (I haven't read much of the SM books); more the way they're presented in the stores and in the recent video games. Was this always the case, and my nostalgia goggles are tinting my view? Or is this a trend?


*Who save the day from worse, but burn a few hundred children on the way home for looking at them funny.
**the film, at least; no one seems to be sure on Heinlein's original intent.

Space Marines on the whole lack the independence of thought to be anything other than what they're commanded to be. Morality in 40k is relative, like irl morality. The Space Marines are "good" in that they are powerful and effective at enforcing the will of the masters of humankind.

Well, for one thing, Space marines in Rogue Trader (circa 1987) used to paint slogans on their armor, like Kill, Kill, Kill, or "Burn the Heretic", and use combat drugs.

Dark Angels have made it their life's work to find their Chapter brethren that went rogue during the Horus heresy, and torture them into pleading guilty for their sins to "save" them.

They still do use combat drugs. And do a whole host of things that parents wouldn't approve of.

I think that both the video games and especially the in store adverts play to a more European, dark, cynical view of warfare. There's no clear-cut, out and out victories. All of the advertisements I ever see for 40k show a "heroic" last stand, where everyone is going to die. I don't see an assertion of morality made in these advertisements, but maybe we aren't seeing the same ones.

The "morality" depends on the Chapter in question.

Ultramarines, for example, are known to be a bit more "human" than a Chapter like the Iron Hands. It's partially why they're chosen to be a flagship Chapter in media now.

I think we need to detach ourselves from our humanity to see the space marines correctly. So often they're shown as saving the populations of a planet from invaders that its hard to remember what they represent and the society they're saving.

The Space Marines are literally not humans, they're a living vector of genocide. The populations are not free and prosperous, the entire prolateria exists as little more than slaves. The government is a brutal and unrelenting dictatorship, which is quite literally lead by blind faith.

The fact that we are human makes us see the space marines as good for the simple fact that they fight and die to save people like us. Every army is at once good and evil to their own accords, but it takes a lot of detachment to see them for what they really are.

the more mature you make something, the more kids seem to want it, but the less parents want to buy it.

The trick is making it obvious to the kid that it's mature and cool, while making sure the parent is oblivious to this fact.
Typically, just calling it a video game can make a parent forget that there's even the slightest chance it might contain content they wouldn't let their child see otherwise.

I used to sell video games, and believe me it is VERY hard to convince a parent who doesn't want to be in the store right now, doesn't want to spend money anyway, doesn't want to hear his kid complain anymore, and doesn't want to hear me talk to him, to look at the back cover of the video game and realize it says violence, nudity, language, sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

Especially when "He plays it at a friends house, so it's ok."

If you named a game "Rabid Space Nazi's" it wouldn't sell too well. Because at the very least, parents would hear their children speak the words.
But if you called it "Honorable Warriors of Justice" it would sell better. Even if the game is identical in every aspect.

Plus political correctness and all that. Gotta be sure you don't offend the wrong person, otherwise your entire business is forfeit due to emotional damages.

bibblles wrote:I think we need to detach ourselves from our humanity to see the space marines correctly. So often they're shown as saving the populations of a planet from invaders that its hard to remember what they represent and the society they're saving.

The Space Marines are literally not humans, they're a living vector of genocide. The populations are not free and prosperous, the entire prolateria exists as little more than slaves. The government is a brutal and unrelenting dictatorship, which is quite literally lead by blind faith.

The fact that we are human makes us see the space marines as good for the simple fact that they fight and die to save people like us. Every army is at once good and evil to their own accords, but it takes a lot of detachment to see them for what they really are.

The fact that we are human is not what makes us "see the Space Marines as good". In fact, for most of us it's quite blindingly obvious that the Space Marines are anything but good.

The difference as I said comes from the Chapter. The Ultramarines might be a Chapter which are hidebound by tradition and obscenely by the book...but they do what they do for the good of humanity.

The populations of many worlds are, in fact, free--and quite prosperous even. But quite frankly, this entire idea of "detachment makes us see what they really are" is absurd. The Space Marines are a necessary evil in a setting where proximity to dangerous artifacts can in fact turn entire cities--even civilizations into gibbering maniacs. It's a setting where there are creatures drifting through the cold dark of space, stripping worlds bare of life and leaving nothing but death in their wake. It's a setting where having an open mind can result in you being possessed by an extradimensional entity which will destroy you, body and soul, and remake you in its own image to stride the material world and bring death.

To quote 40k's tagline...
There is only war.

Space marines- Brutal fanatic enforcers of an evil totalitarian society that oppresses humans and technological advances. However thgis organisation is pretty much the only thing keeping Humanity going, and even then not doing very well.

Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks and every other Xenos species- Wants to kill/enslave humanity.

Now, relatively the SM (and IoM) are the 'good' guys.
Relative to our own morality they are all evil.

purplefood wrote:
Relative to our own morality they are all evil.

Kinda, though it's made clear that some SM are not as evil by our standards. I'd argue that the Salamanders, Ultramarines and Space Wolves are intended to be noble - if questionable - in terms of character.

I forgot what codex it is, but there is a little short story. Goverment of a planet calls in some help from some Space Marines to put down some roits and rebels that popped up. So the Marine just starts ordering everyone killed, or bombarded. When the Govenor asks what he is doing he tells him "ending the rebelion"
That is what people tend to forger, Marines do not care for little bunny rabbits and come save planets from threats because the humans need them. They are keeping what the Impire has in place and not letting it go, at any cost.
It's the Guard that is the every man that is there, while following orders, that are most like you and I.
But if you look at the Tau, they would think they are the good guys, Chaos, while twisted, some of them I am sure think they are doing what is right or best for everyone, even if others disagree.

There are no good guys in Warhammer 40k. There are only bad guys and slightly less bad guys. Its a black and very dark grey morality here. Even the Tau are dark gray. And their the faction everyone harks as the good guys.

Kanluwen wrote:

bibblles wrote:snip

The fact that we are human is not what makes us "see the Space Marines as good". In fact, for most of us it's quite blindingly obvious that the Space Marines are anything but good.

The difference as I said comes from the Chapter. The Ultramarines might be a Chapter which are hidebound by tradition and obscenely by the book...but they do what they do for the good of humanity.

The populations of many worlds are, in fact, free--and quite prosperous even. But quite frankly, this entire idea of "detachment makes us see what they really are" is absurd. The Space Marines are a necessary evil in a setting where proximity to dangerous artifacts can in fact turn entire cities--even civilizations into gibbering maniacs. It's a setting where there are creatures drifting through the cold dark of space, stripping worlds bare of life and leaving nothing but death in their wake. It's a setting where having an open mind can result in you being possessed by an extradimensional entity which will destroy you, body and soul, and remake you in its own image to stride the material world and bring death.

To quote 40k's tagline...
There is only war.

Well you've got a point, but I was thinking less in terms of the current playerbase and more from the perspective of someone looking at 40k from the outside. I started recently and before I did I associated the space marines with good only because I knew they where humans killing the big nasties, which is a view point I suspect a lot of parents have when they buy their kids this stuff. I suppose I was being melodramatic or something with my 'detachment give us perspective' but you've got to admit from an outsider's view its a very different experience.

Of course it is, but from an outsider's view anything is a very different experience.

Oh from an outsiders view i suspose the Space Marines are knights in shining armor. The truest heroes with the purest hearts or some gak like that. They do look like knights in space. Especially the Black Templars.

Personally ive disliked the space marines since i started reading about the IG. True courage is knowing you got crap armor and equipment and that thing wants to use your skull as a cup and you still go and fight.

Yeah, Space Marines have steadily become brighter and softer. Meanwhile, the Chaos Space Marines are being flanderized into being evil for the point of being evil with nonsensical motivates (except in the HH Series, where they've got a few good books like "Fulgrim" and "A Thousand Sons").

Everything Chaos is being flanderized. Khorne is a blood thirsthy madman, Slannesh is all about sex and drugs, Nurgle is sick and Tezeech is a schemer. There no longer seems to be any of the duality. Like Khorne also had a martial pride aspect and Nurgle's aspect was stubborness and a will to live. It was quite grim dark for nomatter what you did you empowered a chaos god.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Everything Chaos is being flanderized. Khorne is a blood thirsthy madman, Slannesh is all about sex and drugs, Nurgle is sick and Tezeech is a schemer. There no longer seems to be any of the duality. Like Khorne also had a martial pride aspect and Nurgle's aspect was stubborness and a will to live. It was quite grim dark for nomatter what you did you empowered a chaos god.

Doesnt WHF still have Khorne getting pissed at people that use tricks or dishonor deat hby combat? Reminds me of Vampire the Masqurade, and everyone saying "Sabbat Evil!" for the sake of kicking babies and puppies.

Not just WHFB.

The Gaunt's Ghosts novels in particular still maintain that idea of "Khorne and martial honor". Heck, it's at the core of the Blood Pact.

Kanluwen wrote:The "morality" depends on the Chapter in question.

Ultramarines, for example, are known to be a bit more "human" than a Chapter like the Iron Hands. It's partially why they're chosen to be a flagship Chapter in media now.

They've been the flagship chapter since the mid nineties. They weren't chosen because they were the most human, they were chosen because out of the Big Four of Space Marine Chapters (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines), they were the only one that didn't need any extra explanation. They're just big buys in big armor with big guns. No hoodie bathrobes, long hair, or fangs.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "morality" depends on the Chapter in question.

Ultramarines, for example, are known to be a bit more "human" than a Chapter like the Iron Hands. It's partially why they're chosen to be a flagship Chapter in media now.

They've been the flagship chapter since the mid nineties.

Was this before or after the Black Templars, Blood Angels, and Crimson Fists were "flagship Chapters"?

They weren't chosen because they were the most human, they were chosen because out of the Big Four of Space Marine Chapters (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines), they were the only one that didn't need any extra explanation. They're just big buys in big armor with big guns. No hoodie bathrobes, long hair, or fangs.

This part is at least partially true.

The Ultramarines, at their core, are quite simply Romans in Space and fit the idea of the Imperium oh so well with the Ultramar System.
Rome was a center of learning, trade, and culture...all built upon conquest and the threat of imminent violence to those who upset the order of things.
Ultramar falls under the same auspices. As far as the Imperium goes, it's a veritable paradise...which is home to a force which would willingly burn the place to the ground if corruption reared its head.

I don't know. The new Grey Knights codex makes the Grey Knights look like paranoid fanatics. And the Carcharadons...sheesh.

My first reaction was to think that the whole 40k universe had been polarized, but looking at things like Space Hulk and Chaos Gate where it's very clear who's good an who is evil, it may actually be better these days. Space Marine chapters all have significant flaws that put them more in the grey area than they used to be. Looking at the quick down and dirty aspects of the Legions(and the successor chapters) only a few stay truly polar. If you play through Dawn of War you see many examples of the good guys having issues like 'Gee, should have I really killed everyone on that planet?' and seeing Guardsman being shot for fleeing from a fight.

Kanluwen wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "morality" depends on the Chapter in question.

Ultramarines, for example, are known to be a bit more "human" than a Chapter like the Iron Hands. It's partially why they're chosen to be a flagship Chapter in media now.

They've been the flagship chapter since the mid nineties.

Was this before or after the Black Templars, Blood Angels, and Crimson Fists were "flagship Chapters"?

Obviously before, since none of those Chapters have ever been "flagship". I think you're confused. Being flagship doesn't mean the Ultramarines are on everything, just that they are the most commonly used. There's a reason the original Codex: Space Marines was titled Codex: Ultramarines. Or the Ultramarines were the first "entire chapter" that GW made a studio army of. Or why the Ultramarines were the protagonist Marines in most of the video games that weren't called Dawn of War, dating back to Chaos Gate in 1998. Or their just random proliferation amongst gaming material. Obviously GW features their other chapters heavily too. They want to sell all those fancy Blood Angel and Black Templar models they make.

You can dispense with the poorly conceived, baseless sarcasm now. Save it for situations where you actually know what you're talking about.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "morality" depends on the Chapter in question.

Ultramarines, for example, are known to be a bit more "human" than a Chapter like the Iron Hands. It's partially why they're chosen to be a flagship Chapter in media now.

They've been the flagship chapter since the mid nineties.

Was this before or after the Black Templars, Blood Angels, and Crimson Fists were "flagship Chapters"?

Obviously before, since none of those Chapters have ever been "flagship". I think you're confused. Being flagship doesn't mean the Ultramarines are on everything, just that they are the most commonly used. There's a reason the original Codex: Space Marines was titled Codex: Ultramarines. Or the Ultramarines were the first "entire chapter" that GW made a studio army of. Or why the Ultramarines were the protagonist Marines in most of the video games that weren't called Dawn of War, dating back to Chaos Gate in 1998. Or their just random proliferation amongst gaming material. Obviously GW features their other chapters heavily too. They want to sell all those fancy Blood Angel and Black Templar models they make.

You can dispense with the poorly conceived, baseless sarcasm now. Save it for situations where you actually know what you're talking about.

So you're saying that the starter sets and Codices where Black Templars and Crimson Fists were the predominant armies were not them in fact being "flagship Chapters"?

The Ultramarines did have a bit of a heyday early on. But then it rotated away from them and has shifted back. It's really not that big of a deal, despite the constant ire it seems to attract.

Edit Note:
I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here. I don't see the big deal of Ultramarines being a flagship Chapter for multimedia ventures. They're the "best fit" for the Astartes to be portrayed.

It's like the Imperial Guard having the Cadians as their "flagship" rather than the Death Korps of Krieg or Catachans.

Going back to Khorne, I remember reading on Lexicanum that whilst champions of Khorne would happily throw themselves against overwhelming odds, they would never even consider lowering themselves to killing defenseless mortals-in some ways, Khorne was more noble than the Imperium.

This is what we need more of!

Kanluwen wrote:Not just WHFB.

The Gaunt's Ghosts novels in particular still maintain that idea of "Khorne and martial honor". Heck, it's at the core of the Blood Pact.

I don't think Black Library is a good benchmark, and Abnett least of all.

Abnett has been very explicit that his (as well as all Black Library) is an "alternative take" on the 40K universe, one that takes it's liberties to play to the limits and strenghts of a novel or book compared to the GW stuff which plays to the limits and strenghts of a table-top game.

Black Library might be part of the same umbrella company. Like Forgeworld, it is not "GW" in the strictest of sense though when it comes to determining the core of what is "official canon". And it is Black Library and Forgeworld that are the spin-offs that cater to slightly different customer groups (though with large overlaps, admittedly) compared to "Mainstay-GW", not the other way around.

Zweischneid wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Not just WHFB.

The Gaunt's Ghosts novels in particular still maintain that idea of "Khorne and martial honor". Heck, it's at the core of the Blood Pact.

I don't think Black Library is a good benchmark, and Abnett least of all.

Abnett has been very explicit that his (as well as all Black Library) is an "alternative take" on the 40K universe, one that takes it's liberties to play to the limits and strenghts of a novel or book compared to the GW stuff which plays to the limits and strenghts of a table-top game.

Black Library might be part of the same umbrella company. Like Forgeworld, it is not "GW" in the strictest of sense though when it comes to determining the core of what is "official canon":

Khorne's codex entries do still talk about honour and how the majority of those who serve him are proud warriors who have been pushed too far, it's just easier to represent frothing madmen on the tabletop.

Durza wrote:
Khorne's codex entries do still talk about honour and how the majority of those who serve him are proud warriors who have been pushed too far, it's just easier to represent frothing madmen on the tabletop.

That is true. But has nothing to do with the fact that trying to gauge earlier or "more true" GW canon from BL stuff is a fallacy, as BL was the spin-off that came later and took it to different directions, even if it was inspired by the same source material.

On the Khorne thing, long, long, long threads full of flame and hate have been written on the subject. The two opinions briefly go like that:

A) Khorne is a god of mindless slaughter. His most true and iconic servant is Kharn, who would slay anyone and anything, brothers, grandmothers, puppies, just to spill blood. That aside, many warriors have codes of honour, and not everyone is as far out as Kharn. Warrior Codes and Honor are Khorne's "Gateway drug", just as little white lies or the gateway drug of Tzeentch and a bit of sloth can be a gateway drug to Nurgle.

B) Khorne is a warrior god. A "Warrior's Code of Honor" is part of his worship.

I am personally reading it more to the former, as it is worthwhile to note that not everyone serving the Chaos Gods must necessarly epitomize their ideal to the fullest (while some may). And falling to Chaos is a slow, corrupting process that can, in the case of Khorne, turn honorable warriors (slowly!) into the frothing madman who have forgotten their ideals. If you are talking Space Marines or even whole societies, this transition of slow corruption can take centuries before, if ever, it reaches "Kharn-level". YMMV

Zweischneid wrote:

Durza wrote:
Khorne's codex entries do still talk about honour and how the majority of those who serve him are proud warriors who have been pushed too far, it's just easier to represent frothing madmen on the tabletop.

That is true. But has nothing to do with the fact that trying to gauge earlier or "more true" GW canon from BL stuff is a fallacy, as BL was the spin-off that came later and took it to different directions, even if it was inspired by the same source material.

Black Library is the branch devoted to further fleshing out the setting. GW is the branch which deals with giving you a world to play in.
Fantasy Flight Games has begun to play in that same role as well.

I really don't understand the reluctance to accept BL's better stuff as canon.