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Kanluwen wrote:
Black Library is the branch devoted to further fleshing out the setting. GW is the branch which deals with giving you a world to play in.
Fantasy Flight Games has begun to play in that same role as well.

I really don't understand the reluctance to accept BL's better stuff as canon.

My "reluctance" comes from the very words of Dan Abnett. I see if I can dig up the interview. In essence, he said as much that they had a big fight between the "GW guys" and the "Black Library guys" when Black Library was allegedly departing from GW guidance and canon. They essentially settled on the agreement that.. to quote roughly from memory, "what works in the game may not work in a novel, and what works in a novel may not work in a game", and thus BL products would be an .. to quote again roughly from memory, "an alternative take" on the 40K universe.

The argument can be extended for Video Games, movies, RPGs, etc.. . They have different needs and conventions on where the reader/player/audience "enters", identifies with and interacts with the material.

That said, I don't think there even is one regulated "canon" in 40K as their is, for example, in Star Wars, so the argument is largely mute anyhow. Alot of the appeal of 40K is the fact that it can be read, played, interpreted very, very differently depending on what you want to emphasise or how.

I'd like to see actual examples of Space Marines being shown as boyscouts in power armour since I literally cannot remember seeing that depiction anywhere.
To be frank, the OP's perspective seems very Manichean to me ("fascism" might be reading too much into it, also). They have always been both a glimmer of hope for Humanity and ruthless enforcers of the supremacy of the Imperium. These are the two faces of the same coin. You may see only one side at a time, but claiming it was one and has become the other just doesn't sound right to me.
Regarding the video games my first one was Fire Warrior, where they definitely appear as the sinister shock troops of a merciless evil empire. Considering you're in the boots of a Tau footman, it makes perfect sense. Dawn of War is a bit different ; here, they are (often) the protagonists, struggling against the enemies of Mankind. Seeing them under a different, more favourable light is only natural.

The problem, I reckon, has more to see with a possibly disproportionate number of works featuring them as the protagonists (the posterboy syndrome ?). I haven't played Retribution yet however, I'd expect them to be rightfully portrayed as grim and extremist in the other races' campaign.

Joey wrote:Space Marines on the whole lack the independence of thought to be anything other than what they're commanded to be.

wat

Zweischneid wrote:The two opinions briefly go like that:

A) Khorne is a god of mindless slaughter. His most true and iconic servant is Kharn, who would slay anyone and anything, brothers, grandmothers, puppies, just to spill blood. That aside, many warriors have codes of honour, and not everyone is as far out as Kharn. Warrior Codes and Honor are Khorne's "Gateway drug", just as little white lies or the gateway drug of Tzeentch and a bit of sloth can be a gateway drug to Nurgle.

B) Khorne is a warrior god. A "Warrior's Code of Honor" is part of his worship.

Again, I feel mandated to say this is way too binary an approach to fully apprehend 40k's setting. I remember well reading on this very forum that he was both as well as everything in between, and then some. The way I see it, it's a world of Gray and Grey morality, not Black and White.

Zweischneid wrote:

Durza wrote:
Khorne's codex entries do still talk about honour and how the majority of those who serve him are proud warriors who have been pushed too far, it's just easier to represent frothing madmen on the tabletop.

That is true. But has nothing to do with the fact that trying to gauge earlier or "more true" GW canon from BL stuff is a fallacy, as BL was the spin-off that came later and took it to different directions, even if it was inspired by the same source material.

On the Khorne thing, long, long, long threads full of flame and hate have been written on the subject. The two opinions briefly go like that:

A) Khorne is a god of mindless slaughter. His most true and iconic servant is Kharn, who would slay anyone and anything, brothers, grandmothers, puppies, just to spill blood. That aside, many warriors have codes of honour, and not everyone is as far out as Kharn. Warrior Codes and Honor are Khorne's "Gateway drug", just as little white lies or the gateway drug of Tzeentch and a bit of sloth can be a gateway drug to Nurgle.

B) Khorne is a warrior god. A "Warrior's Code of Honor" is part of his worship.

I am personally reading it more to the former, as it is worthwhile to note that not everyone serving the Chaos Gods must necessarly epitomize their ideal to the fullest (while some may). And falling to Chaos is a slow, corrupting process that can, in the case of Khorne, turn honorable warriors (slowly!) into the frothing madman who have forgotten their ideals. If you are talking Space Marines or even whole societies, this transition of slow corruption can take centuries before, if ever, it reaches "Kharn-level". YMMV

It's both really. B is always present, but because of the constant warfare and related anger, A is a much more powerful influence.

Its a complex question with two answers: Yes and No.

No, the Space Marines are not Rabid Fundamentalist Space Fascists, because they are a fighting force, not a political organization (mostly), they exist to kick ass and take names and do what it takes to defend the Imperium from any threat.

Yes, the Space Marines are Rabid Fundamentalist Space Fascists, because they are poster boys for a Rabid Fundamentalist Space Fascist government and are sworn to protect said Fascist government and uphold its policies and continued well-being.

Hyd wrote:I'd like to see actual examples of Space Marines being shown as boyscouts in power armour since I literally cannot remember seeing that depiction anywhere.
To be frank, the OP's perspective seems very Manichean to me ("fascism" might be reading too much into it, also). They have always been both a glimmer of hope for Humanity and ruthless enforcers of the supremacy of the Imperium. These are the two faces of the same coin. You may see only one side at a time, but claiming it was one and has become the other just doesn't sound right to me.
Regarding the video games my first one was Fire Warrior, where they definitely appear as the sinister shock troops of a merciless evil empire. Considering you're in the boots of a Tau footman, it makes perfect sense. Dawn of War is a bit different ; here, they are (often) the protagonists, struggling against the enemies of Mankind. Seeing them under a different, more favourable light is only natural.

I've got to admit here that it was very much a general impression of the franchise changing over time (hence why I phrased a lot of it as a question, I wasn't sure it was objectively accurate). I'll try to dig up some examples. I've heard second-hand that the SM DS game is quite binary, but not played it first hand. A friend's going to lend me Space Marine in a week or two. For now, just poking around the GW website gives a few examples:

"The Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are fearless champions of humanity. Genetic modification and psycho-conditioning has made them superior to Men in all respects."

"In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, heretics, traitors, aliens and Daemons assail Mankind from all sides. Of all the soldiers that defend humanity, the greatest are most assuredly the Space Marines - super-human warriors forged through ancient and arcane science, they are the Emperor's greatest gift to the Imperium and the hope of all Mankind."


These pages are specifically designed as an introduction to the Space Marines for newcomers to the hobby, and paint the Space Marines as unequivocably Good Guys. This is a good example of the trend I'm talking about. The urls seem to break the forum url code, but if you go to the 40k section of GW's website and look at the Space Marine overview/introduction, that's where I found the quotes.

On the Fascism point, I had to do a little poking around to find a 'standard' definition of Fascism, as it's a multifaceted ideaology that's frustratingly hard to pin down in short. The best I've found was here:

Wikipedia wrote:

One common definition of fascism focuses on three groups of ideas:

The Fascist Negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism.
Nationalist, authoritarian goals for the creation of a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture.
A political aesthetic using romantic symbolism, mass mobilisation, a positive view of violence, promotion of masculinity and youth and charismatic leadership.[43][44][45]

--------------

^ Griffin, Roger and Matthew Feldman Fascism: Critical Concepts in Political Science pp. 420–421, 2004 Taylor and Francis.
^ Kallis, Aristotle, ed. (2003). The Fascism Reader, London: Routledge, pages 84–85.
^ Renton, David. Fascism: Theory and Practice, p. 21, London: Pluto Press, 1999.

I don't think I'm reading too much into it, or being too Manichean, by stating that the Space Marines ring a lot of bells with this. I've not read enough BL to know if the first point is relevant. The second, definitely. The third, definitely. They are the enthusiastic enforcers of a Fascist state.

Winterkit wrote:
I've got to admit here that it was very much a general impression of the franchise changing over time (hence why I phrased a lot of it as a question, I wasn't sure it was objectively accurate). I'll try to dig up some examples. I've heard second-hand that the SM DS game is quite binary, but not played it first hand. A friend's going to lend me Space Marine in a week or two. For now, just poking around the GW website gives a few examples:

"The Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are fearless champions of humanity. Genetic modification and psycho-conditioning has made them superior to Men in all respects."

"In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, heretics, traitors, aliens and Daemons assail Mankind from all sides. Of all the soldiers that defend humanity, the greatest are most assuredly the Space Marines - super-human warriors forged through ancient and arcane science, they are the Emperor's greatest gift to the Imperium and the hope of all Mankind."


These pages are specifically designed as an introduction to the Space Marines for newcomers to the hobby, and paint the Space Marines as unequivocably Good Guys. This is a good example of the trend I'm talking about. The urls seem to break the forum url code, but if you go to the 40k section of GW's website and look at the Space Marine overview/introduction, that's where I found the quotes.

And none of that seems to paint them as "good guys".

Being a "champion" does not mean you are a good guy. It is, in this case, a term used to describe one who fights in the name of a cause or ideal. Adding in psycho-conditioning makes that championship a bit suspect, but the Imperium has risen the Astartes to a role of honor much like that of knighthood within the medieval European societies.

On the Fascism point, I had to do a little poking around to find a 'standard' definition of Fascism, as it's a multifaceted ideaology that's frustratingly hard to pin down in short. The best I've found was here:

Wikipedia wrote:

One common definition of fascism focuses on three groups of ideas:

The Fascist Negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism.
Nationalist, authoritarian goals for the creation of a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture.
A political aesthetic using romantic symbolism, mass mobilisation, a positive view of violence, promotion of masculinity and youth and charismatic leadership.[43][44][45]

--------------

^ Griffin, Roger and Matthew Feldman Fascism: Critical Concepts in Political Science pp. 420–421, 2004 Taylor and Francis.
^ Kallis, Aristotle, ed. (2003). The Fascism Reader, London: Routledge, pages 84–85.
^ Renton, David. Fascism: Theory and Practice, p. 21, London: Pluto Press, 1999.

I don't think I'm reading too much into it, or being too Manichean, by stating that the Space Marines ring a lot of bells with this. I've not read enough BL to know if the first point is relevant. The second, definitely. The third, definitely. They are the enthusiastic enforcers of a Fascist state.

Once again, the whole idea of "enthusiastic enforcers of a fascist state" falls flat on its face when you put it into the context of the setting.

Those Astartes burning the children for "looking at them funny on their way home"? The children very well could have been possessed by daemonic entities which would split them asunder and use their meat as a summoning portal for more daemonic entities. When something like that happens--there is no coming back. There is only the solution of kill everything(everything) and obliterate all traces that it ever happened.

Actually chaos0xomega adressed pretty well what was bothering me with the fascism bit : I don't see the Adeptus Astartes as a political entity, though it is true they are at the core of a very martial society that can bring to mind such real-life examples.
That, and this word is all too often used in a defamatory way nowadays so I tend to be dismissive when I hear it. I apologize if I came across as such.

As for the heroic depictions of the SM, to me they were always there, not too far from "There is only war". They are Mankind's champions after all. At the same time, the depiction is still very stern, such as having their humanity completely suppressed by indoctrination ; in the end, the general feeling is that they only come across as the "good" guys because everyone else is so much worse.
Grimdark.

Hyd wrote:
That, and this word is all too often used in a defamatory way nowadays so I tend to be dismissive when I hear it. I apologize if I came across as such.

This... its used improperly at that. (Hint: Fascism is not the same as National Socialism. Fascism as (initially) practiced by Mussolini was very different from "Fascism" practiced by Hitler was very different from "Fascism" practiced by Tojo was very different from "Fascism" as practiced by Franco, etc.)

Yep, same goes for communism. But it's okay, Winterkit wasn't using it so lightly it seems.

Back to the topic, I have to admit that a number of SM chapters are showcased as more or less superheroes, and the darker side is not exactly pushed to the forefront. The Ultramarines are pretty much flawless and govern a utopia, the Space Wolves are Wolverine IN SPACE, the Blood Angels are tragic heroes, the Grey Knights are incorruptible... The Black Templars and the Dark Angels are downright fanatic, but they haven't received much attention as of late.
The Blood Ravens aren't too bad in that regard, as far as I recall. DoW 2 presents an interesting cast, where Cyrus and especially Avitus do a great job at depicting the grim and unforgiving nature of the Space Marines (to the point where they appear a bit one-dimensional in fact).

Astartes are warriors, and are there to defend the Imperium, thus indirectly to defend humanity, which regardless of any other factor makes them the 'good' guys.

Further, they are warriors, first and foremost. This means that other aspects of them (political leanings, attitudes towards civilians, etc) are portrayed only after the sheer kick-assery has been drummed into us. Which is why the fascist nutjob aspect of them is not pushed to the forefront.

LoneLictor wrote: the HH Series, where they've got a few good books like "Fulgrim"

Fulgrim sucked nuts. In fact, so far the only good HH book I've read has been Legion. Descent of Angels was pretty good. The others were readable only because I'm fascinated with the subject matter.

Watching the characters fall to Chaos has, so far, been a baffling 'lolwut' experience. There was none of the character exposition I was expecting, none of the 'chaotic' desires and impulses coming through. The big fall of Horus was clumsily constructed, as was Fulgrims fall.

Good and Evil are just a matter of opinion. Many people believe communism was good and Nazism is bad, and vice versa.

IMO, the least evil guys are the Orks. They do not oppress their people, they do not enslave or torture, they have no crime or government. All they do is follow their basic instinct... Can you say the shark that eats a surfer is "evil"? All it does is follow it's instincts, as do the Orks.

I really don't understand the reluctance to accept BL's better stuff as canon.

Better stuff? Who is to determine what is "better"?

I really don't understand the reluctance to accept BL's stuff as canon.

There. Fixed it.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Good and Evil are just a matter of opinion. Many people believe communism was good and Nazism is bad, and vice versa.

IMO, the least evil guys are the Orks. They do not oppress their people, they do not enslave or torture, they have no crime or government. All they do is follow their basic instinct... Can you say the shark that eats a surfer is "evil"? All it does is follow it's instincts, as do the Orks.

But Orks do enslave and torture people.

Yes, but not for any reason other than it is their nature.

They also oppress their own people... the Red Grot will rise again!

Kaldor wrote:Which is why the fascist nutjob aspect of them is not pushed to the forefront.

Aye, but I do think the indoctrination is a defining trait since it's the source of their fanatical loyalty.
Hey, idea. Instead of always making a more or less bland commander lead the Marines in the media, put a Chaplain in charge. People who think they're just "pretty cool guys with big shoulders" would maybe raise an eyebrow upon hearing the Litanies of Hate.
"But but... but they're heroes and... they kill baddies and stuff... and heroes uphold family friendly values, like... tolerance... right ?" "KILL THE HERETIC ! PURGE THE ALIEN ! ABHOR THE WITCH !"

They just need to remember to put a few quotes here and there, such as my all-time favourite : "There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt." In DoW it's spoken by the Librarian, now that I think of it. Wasn't paying attention since I've long assimilated it, but in the end we're talking about atmosphere, and I think a newcomer would notice.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Good and Evil are just a matter of opinion.

Hoooo boy, that statement deserves a thread of its own ! Agreed, but let's not get too far in this direction

Again, they do so out because it is who they are. Because it is their basic animal instinct.

Humanity enslaves, tortures, wages war and murders because of the desire for power or due to an emotional decision etc. Orks do it because it is the very fabric of what they are. The Old Ones made them that way, and there is no avoiding it. Telling an Ork not to rape and pillage is like asking an eagle not to fly.

I agree, Hyd.

All Space Marines are good.... until you get deeper into the fluff. For instance, Space Marine could have been about the Carcharodon Chapter against the Orks. It would have been the same game. But then you go onto Lexicanum, you see that they royally screwed the Star Phantoms in the Badab War, and how they essentially gang-raped the Mantis Warriors to near extinction.

Hell, I started Daemonhunters in 4th Ed because they were ostensibly the goodest guys of them all, but then I read more and more fluff, and it just became unappealing to me.

Actually, it works that way for every army. Good on the outside, but dig deeper, and no one is good.

What is the line we hear?

There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt

Need more be said?

DeffDred wrote:

I really don't understand the reluctance to accept BL's better stuff as canon.

Better stuff? Who is to determine what is "better"?

I really don't understand the reluctance to accept BL's stuff as canon.

There. Fixed it.

I think you get it from the wrong angle. If there's no dissonance between BL and Codex stuff, fine. Take it as canon if you like.

But the very discussion only started because people perceive a discrepancy. If that is the case.. why would you consider BL to be canon over the GW-main publications on a game that evidently started with quite alot of goof (Goblin Gooblewhack porting in from Fantasy to battle Marines, Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau) long, long, long before Black Library was ever conceived off.

Black crusade was an awesome take by Fantasy Games on the nature of chaos.

One common definition of fascism focuses on three groups of ideas:

The Fascist Negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism.
Nationalist, authoritarian goals for the creation of a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture.
A political aesthetic using romantic symbolism, mass mobilisation, a positive view of violence, promotion of masculinity and youth and charismatic leadership

Slightly OT: with todays 'emasculisation' of society as well as the current uk conservative government coupled with the economic crisis I do wonder if facism will take hold in the UK.
Maybe Herr Griffin will start a UK space marine program...

Space Wolves. Drinking nuff said.

rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. Drinking nuff said.

Emperor's Children: substance abuse, torture, murder, possible rape and all kinds of kink.

Durza wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. Drinking nuff said.

Emperor's Children: substance abuse, torture, murder, possible rape and all kinds of kink.

The difference is that drinking and being a drunk viking is cool, the other not really.

I... guess. Unless you know that a Viking is a raider who goes all-out for the rape, pillage and slaughter of mostly-defenseless villages, coastal towns and other easy targets. Also, Space Wolves have to take a drug to suppress their enhanced immunities in order to get drunk. Alcohol is not, by itself, toxic enough to affect them.

The Space Wolves, themselves, are a caricature of a caricature of what being a Viking means.

Psienesis wrote:I... guess. Unless you know that a Viking is a raider who goes all-out for the rape, pillage and slaughter of mostly-defenseless villages, coastal towns and other easy targets. Also, Space Wolves have to take a drug to suppress their enhanced immunities in order to get drunk. Alcohol is not, by itself, toxic enough to affect them.

The Space Wolves, themselves, are a caricature of a caricature of what being a Viking means.

Except SW aren't much for the rape and pillage bit after they graduate to marine. And SW don't take drugs to reduce their immunity to alchohol, they drink stronger alcohol that can burn through their immunities. Hence the stories on Fenris of being killed when drinking from the cups of the gods.

You mean Vikings are not just about heavy metal and horned helmets ? Madness !