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Hey everyone, first time poster long time reader. I have a question about using KFFF in vehicles, I have had tremendous success using Kan wall and battlewagon lists. So much so that the guys I play are trying to find ways to invalidate the KFF. That being said in my battlewagon list I usually take a Big Mek with KFF and put his wagon in the middle so the other wagons block it while he provides a 4+ to them. Their argument is that it does not say in the codex that it works while he is in the vehicle and I have been unable to find a similiar ability where GW allowed it to work in a vehicle. Any wording on this subject anywhere or am I doing it wrong?

Also since the FAQ update if 2/3 of my Kans are in KFF range does it confer to the squad or do they all need to be within 6" as the FAQ seems to suggest.

Thanks for the help!

Read your kff rules.

It most certainly does work while he's in the vehicle, in the same way that the Mek can use his Mek's Tools while embarked. Plus, you measure from the 6" from the vehicle's hull, and as such it's always advantageous to put him in one. It's FAQ'd in the BRB (I believe), though I don't have the quote on hand (hopefully following posters shall provide it).

As for Killa Kanz - half the unit has to be within 6" (so, the middle guy must be within 6") for the *entire* unit to get that 4+. You do not need every single model to be within those 6". Just the middle one, which means the closet one will automatically be within 6".

Otherwise, they only get a 5+ if only one is in range - though it's certainly debatable if they get any save if this is the case.

If your squadron is cut down to two kans, only one needs to be within range.

Also, if your friends try the "your shields affect your opponent's units as well", slap them. That's already been FAQ'd - wargear ONLY affects opponent units if it specifically states as such. Otherwise it only ever affects your own units.

EDIT: Orite, manners! Welcome to Dakka

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Read your kff rules.

Yeah! Why don't these rules make sense to you? Don't you know that the KFF interaction with squadrons is the clearest, most concise set of rules ever written by GW?

Just kidding, unlike others. Thanks for joining the Dakka community, Gruzkull. Try not to be turned off by the less cordial people who have access to these forums as well.

This is one of the more complicated rule combinations in the game and is discussed ad nauseum in the You Make Da Call! Forum.

Had no clue it was his first post Damn cell screen not being wide enough.

Welcome to the forums.

And yes the Gw faqs help a lot with your questio.

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone!

I've read the FAQ's and they are kind of compounding the issue more then helping lol. From the BRB FAQ

"Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or (other than shooting?)(p66)
A:No"

They are saying this says I cannot use the KFF inside the vehicle because its a special rule/wargear.

On the Kan issue from the Ork FAQ

"What cover save does the kff give to a vehicle within 6" of it pg 35?
A. 4+. Note for a squadron only vehicles within 6" count as obscured."

The argument here is the 3rd kan is left out therefore not getting an obscured save .(usually take 6 kans with a mek within ranged of 4 so one in either squad is outside 6").

I apologize for being in the wrong section, 40k tactics is the one I have bookmarked and read the most. Forgot there was a rules section! Doh!

The KFF does not draw LOS to the units it affects, so that ruling doesn't apply.

They're right on the Kans, the third one is not obscured. However, the majority of the squad would be in cover, so the whole squad gets a cover save. =]

Kharrak wrote:
As for Killa Kanz - half the unit has to be within 6" (so, the middle guy must be within 6") for the *entire* unit to get that 4+. You do not need every single model to be within those 6". Just the middle one, which means the closet one will automatically be within 6".

Otherwise, they only get a 5+ if only one is in range - though it's certainly debatable if they get any save if this is the case.

I've never heard that one Kan in KFF range gives the squadron a 5+ cover. Is that correct? The part about having two in range giving the squadron a 4+ cover I agree with.

WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Thanks for the warm welcome everyone!

I've read the FAQ's and they are kind of compounding the issue more then helping lol. From the BRB FAQ

"Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or (other than shooting?)(p66)
A:No"

They are saying this says I cannot use the KFF inside the vehicle because its a special rule/wargear.

That FAQ is in regards to fire points, not the ability to use wargear within transports.

On the Kan issue from the Ork FAQ

"What cover save does the kff give to a vehicle within 6" of it pg 35?
A. 4+. Note for a squadron only vehicles within 6" count as obscured."

The argument here is the 3rd kan is left out therefore not getting an obscured save .(usually take 6 kans with a mek within ranged of 4 so one in either squad is outside 6").

As per squadron rules, if the majority of the squadron are obscured, the entire squadron gets the cover save.

haendas wrote:I've never heard that one Kan in KFF range gives the squadron a 5+ cover. Is that correct? The part about having two in range giving the squadron a 4+ cover I agree with.

It's a debatable issue. The text states that all units within 6" get a 5+ cover save. A squadron is a unit, so it applies. It additionally states hat vehicle's count as obscured, so that comes into it as well.

One may say that if at least one kan is within 6", the entire "unit" gets a 5+ cover save, as per wording. Having the majority within 6" grants a global 4+

On the reverse, another may say that kans only ever get the 4+ save, or no save at all.

Thanks for the helpful replies!

I am having trouble still convincing them I am able to use the KFF in a vehicle, as I cannot find a rule that allows me to use my wargear in a transport.

WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Thanks for the helpful replies!

I am having trouble still convincing them I am able to use the KFF in a vehicle, as I cannot find a rule that allows me to use my wargear in a transport.

Your wargear is always active unless the rules entry explicitly says it stops working under certain conditions. My SoB have meltaguns as wargear and no-one has ever told me i can't fire them out of a transport.

As for the Kans question; a unit targetting them will not be targetting a specific Kan, they will be targeting the unit. Just imagine that the KFF is like portable cover. If more than 50% of the unit is in cover, the entire unit gets a cover save.

Welcome to Dakka

The fact that the KFF rule specifically states that it extends from the hull of the vehicle... should be pretty convincing evidence. Look to your Ork codex for the exact quote.

-Myst

And the transport rules in the main rulebook fill in the other part, telling you that when measuring special rules from a model in a transport, you measure from the vehicle's hull.

It sucks, but I've had to furnish the rules for RPJ giving an extra inch. Not everyone is familiar with Orks, just make sure to know your stuff and you'll be set.

My Ork Codex doesn't mention anything about using it in the vehicle. Just says "vehicles within 6" count as obscurred." The argument is from the FAQ I posted earlier and the fact that it doesn't say anything about wargear powers in the BRB just psychic ones. I didn't run my battlewagon list this weekend because they are pretty adament about it not working in a vehicle as I haven't been able to find anything similiar that does work. But my Kan wall list sure did kick some a$$!

WaaaghGruzkull wrote:My Ork Codex doesn't mention anything about using it in the vehicle. Just says "vehicles within 6" count as obscurred." The argument is from the FAQ I posted earlier and the fact that it doesn't say anything about wargear powers in the BRB just psychic ones. I didn't run my battlewagon list this weekend because they are pretty adament about it not working in a vehicle as I haven't been able to find anything similiar that does work. But my Kan wall list sure did kick some a$$!

That sucks. Sounds like your FLGS has a house rule designed to hurt Ork cult of speed. Hope none of them plan to play in a GT or they may get a rude awakening.

-Myst

WaaaghGruzkull wrote:My Ork Codex doesn't mention anything about using it in the vehicle. Just says "vehicles within 6" count as obscurred." The argument is from the FAQ I posted earlier and the fact that it doesn't say anything about wargear powers in the BRB just psychic ones. I didn't run my battlewagon list this weekend because they are pretty adament about it not working in a vehicle as I haven't been able to find anything similiar that does work. But my Kan wall list sure did kick some a$$!

Eh, that's dickish. Wargear that does not require line of site, or a fire point, can always be used from within the transport, or is always in effect, while that unit is within a transport. You measure the effect from the hull, as is seen on page 66, right hand, under Embarking.

I'd be rather irate if I encountered this, it comes across as rather beardy - particularly since all my 1500+ lists count on the KFF Wagon. If someone tried to prevent me from using it, I'd argue their units could not use any abilities, or fire from any vehicles, since by extension they themselves are using their equipment (and abilities granted from that equipment) from inside a vehicle. Denying the KFF wagon is a seriously painful blow to the arguable majority of relatively successful orky lists.

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles's hull."(BRB pg. 66)

If they still won't budge, feel free to call everyones wargear in all transports as void for the same reason. Including locator beacons, icons, psychic hoods, signums, resurrection orbs, blood chalice or any other non-weapon non-armor wargear of any model. If they ever try to do that, just calmly tell them that it doesn't work. If they ask why, tell them, because it's inside a transport, and wargear doesn't work inside transports by their own rules. If they disagree, the KFF works, too.
Sometimes just demonstrating the stupidity of a rule to players is enough to end an argument.

This thread should also be in YMDC.

Jidmah wrote:This thread should also be in YMDC.

Please no.... not again

J.Black wrote:

Jidmah wrote:This thread should also be in YMDC.

Please no.... not again

What's the problem with moving threads where they belong? You aren't supposed to create modeling threads in tactics either.

I know it's in the wrong forum

Just that the KFF question has been done to death many times over in YMDC.

J.Black wrote:I know it's in the wrong forum

Just that the KFF question has been done to death many times over in YMDC.

Well, as new players continuously stream in, the same answers will have to be continuously answered!

KFF Summary:

It absolutely works if you're embarked.

If you're embarked, you measure to the transport's hull to see what is in range.

It only effects your units, not your opponents.

Vehicles in range get a 4+ cover save (thanks FAQ for putting this issue to rest).

Squadrons that have a model in range, but less than half should get a 5+ cover save. But, the reasoning behind this is a little strange and it's rather counter-intuitive. So, be prepared for a large number of players to dispute this. (It also seems this is NOT RAI. Why GW hasn't FAQ'ed to fix this is perplexing.)

You know, Thread Necromancy isn't actually all that terrible- I know of a forum where it's actually encouraged, because it helps save space and keeps the forums less cluttered. I don't know why it's not allowed here.

Because people resurrect six year old threads while adding nothing new to the discussion. It would be best to just read the old threads and if you still have a question to start a new thread. I don't believe Dakka has a maximum number of threads they're allowed to have at one time.

People also resurrect threads relating to old versions of the special rule / power / etc, whcih also causes confusion

Resurrecting a KFF thread would probably be one of the worst possible things to do. The chances of finding one of those Pre-FAQ ones with 10+ pages are pretty high.

I think a YMDC FAQ wouldn't hurt though, especially for things like bonus attacks or "when does FNP work?".

I personally agree that creating a new threat AFTER having searched older threads is a better approach.

A newer thread encourages participation - I'm much more encouraged to jump into a thread about orks that has 0-5 responses, than one that has 10-20 responses.

In addition, it also starts the discussion on a clearer footing, rather than having a viewer have to read through an entire, or at least a considerable amount of an older thread prior to replying.

By the way...

Grakmar wrote:KFF Summary:

It absolutely works if you're embarked.

If you're embarked, you measure to the transport's hull to see what is in range.

It only effects your units, not your opponents.

Vehicles in range get a 4+ cover save (thanks FAQ for putting this issue to rest).

Squadrons that have a model in range, but less than half should get a 5+ cover save. But, the reasoning behind this is a little strange and it's rather counter-intuitive. So, be prepared for a large number of players to dispute this. (It also seems this is NOT RAI. Why GW hasn't FAQ'ed to fix this is perplexing.)

Spot on, all that needs to be known, really.

Ok another question that we had an discussion about today, i have a mob of boys with a KFF Mek behind a squad of kans, one of the kans is blown up and hits the boys, do you get a cover save from the KFF.
The marine player tried to argue that you don't get a save from it cos its not area cover, citing the FAQ about Hive Guard and the Impaler cannon that they have to be IN area terrain. THB i don't know if he is just being TFG or not but i cant see any reason why they don't get a cover save.

Exploding vehicles are specifically told to resolve them as shooting attacks. So, standard cover saves definitely apply.