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------HQ------

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS

155

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS

155

------Troops------

Khorne Berzerkers x 10
Champion
Power Fist
Personal Icon

255

Plague Marines x 7
Plasma Gun x 2
Champion
Power Fist
Rhino
Extra Armor
Dozer Blade

286

Plague Marines x 7
Plasma Gun x 2
Champion
Power Fist
Rhino
Extra Armor
Dozer Blade

286

------Heavy Support------

Land Raider
Extra Armor
Dozer Blade

240

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession

145

Obliterators x 3

225

Total: 1747

Berzerkers in the raider, Obliterators option to deep strike on the icon every now and again for some utility, marines and princes play as you'd expect.

Points value is to the best of my knowledge. Looking to see where I can improve the list for a little more firepower at range. Something like (Oblits x 2) x 3, while still keeping the land raider in the list for the berzerkers, or an equivalently killy cc squad inside.

Thanks in advance for the feedback

I'd drop the vindicator in favour of beefing up another oblit squad.

Agreed with Skycapt44.

Lose the vindi and you will get 2 Oblits. If you dropped the Powerfist and dozer blades from the plague marines and rhinos you should be able to squeeze another oblit. The Plague Marines will do fine in combat without the need for a PF.

Ok, I can understand losing the Vindicator. After play testing, it dies by turn 3 at best and does little for it's points. Best that happened was it knocked out a unit of tyranid warriors with insta death, but nothing in the other games.

Here's an idea on a revision, revised units highlighted in blue, removed units at the bottom below points value in red.

------HQ------

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS
155

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS
155

------Elites------
Terminators x 3
Combi-Melta x 3
Land Raider
Extra Armor
340

------Troops------

Khorne Berzerkers x 9
Champion
Power Fist
Personal Icon
234

Plague Marines x 6
Meltagun x 2
Rhino
Extra Armor
208

Plague Marines x 6
Meltagun x 2
Rhino
Extra Armor
208

------Heavy Support------

Obliterators x 2
150
Obliterators x 2
150
Obliterators x 2
150

Total: 1750

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession

Dozer Blade (Land Raider)

Plague Marine x 1
Champion
Power Fist
Plasma Gun x 2
Dozer Blade (Rhino)

Plague Marine x 1
Champion
Power Fist
Plasma Gun x 2
Dozer Blade (Rhino)

I agreed with the Oblitz beefing, I've always read the Lash play works best with as many obliterators as you can get in without sacrificing troops. This looks like a good middle ground to me.

I'm not too sure about the LR I'd rather give the berzerkers a rhino saves on just under 200 points for something else.

Also I wouldn't bother with the extra armour and instead try replacing with combi meltas.

I'd give the LR possession. Its all twin linked so losing a point of ballistic skill won't hurt. Then it can always move and always shoot for 5 more points.

Aipoch wrote:Ok, I can understand losing the Vindicator. After play testing, it dies by turn 3 at best and does little for it's points. Best that happened was it knocked out a unit of tyranid warriors with insta death, but nothing in the other games.

Here's an idea on a revision, revised units highlighted in blue, removed units at the bottom below points value in red.

------HQ------

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS
155

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS
155

------Elites------
Terminators x 3
Combi-Melta x 3
Land Raider
Extra Armor
340

------Troops------

Khorne Berzerkers x 9
Champion
Power Fist
Personal Icon
234

Plague Marines x 6
Meltagun x 2
Rhino
Extra Armor
208

Plague Marines x 6
Meltagun x 2
Rhino
Extra Armor
208

------Heavy Support------

Obliterators x 2
150
Obliterators x 2
150
Obliterators x 2
150

Total: 1750

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession

Dozer Blade (Land Raider)

Plague Marine x 1
Champion
Power Fist
Plasma Gun x 2
Dozer Blade (Rhino)

Plague Marine x 1
Champion
Power Fist
Plasma Gun x 2
Dozer Blade (Rhino)

i have nine suggestions

1) Drop the vindicator as previously stated and take more oblits, vindicators are great fun but oblits are more competative
2) Drop the khorne bezerkers as sad as it is to admit they arent very competitive. most armies can take stuff that is better for about the same point cost, (incubi with S4 I5 A2 power weapons for 22pts per model )
3) plauge marines and more plauge marines.... sadly they are about the only thing this codex has that is even somewhat competative for a troops choice
4) drop dozer blades, not really all that useful, you can only move 6in if using them and you could be giving them a havoc launcher ( fyi this follows the 1+1 idea, i will explain if needed)
5) landraider looks cool.... but sucks face... 10 point upgrade has a good chance to destroy it... sad drop
6) Lash is really not that competitive cause everyone and their sister takes librarians
7) Nurgle deamon with T5(6) is better almosty immune to small arms fire.... almost
8) more terminators with combi weapons, they are one of the few good things we have

9) not to be mean but if you want to be competitive drop chaos and do something else they are just not all that good

best of luck to you

First and foremost, I wish nothing more than for our very old and dated CSM Codex to be updated. It is half filled with uselessness, quarter filled with price ridiculousness, and badly in need of some love. That being said, there are still some gems in there. Abaddon and Daemon Princes, Obliterators and Cult Marines, Marks of Chaos for any squad to boost specific stats, and some of the coolest looking models in the game all exist in the realm of CSM. I digress, to the points marmaduke made.

In quick reply,

1) Red indicated removed items, the vindicator doesn't exist in the new list.
2) Comparing the stats of a troop vs. an elite is pointless.
3) Agreed on more, disagreed on being the only thing.
4) Agreed, just had 15 points leftover at the end, seemed nice.
5) Compared to a SM version, agreed. As an assault vehicle, disagree.
6) Complete disagree, I'll take my chances with Ld 10 and a roll off. Not always in range, and even if I am, winning a dice roll isn't anything to bank on for either player. Doesn't work if you play over half the available armies either, or if he's dead.
7) Agreed, but you're playing some pretty novice players if they're shooting daemon princes with small arms. That T6 won't make a spec of difference to the big guns that should be hunting princes, nor the power fists that seek them out.
8) I like them in small groups that deep-strike, pop a vehicle, make their points back, and should they do anything else it's a bonus. For 105 a squad, and only getting a single use out of the weapon, larger numbers just aren't viable.
9) Obvious disagree, but still curious what army you would recommend as more competitive, along with what qualifies an army as being "competitive"

GiraffeX, I really do like the idea of another 200 points to play with. Boositing the existing squads to higher numbers or adding another squad sounds pretty nice, maybe another termicide squad. I'll play around with that idea, though do you think it wise to run Berzerkers out of a vehicle that they can't assault out of? Pistols won't be doing much, and they're really just regular marines with WS 5 and 1 more attack if they themselves get assaulted.

Kevlar, I can see the argument for possession since everything is twinlinked. I'm leaning heavily towards removing the dozer blades , so I don't see why LR possession wouldn't be a little benefit. Honestly, I tend to forget about it once it's cargo is delivered. I'll work it into the next play tests.

Keep the idea's coming, many thanks for the feedback

Your revised list is solid. I agree with the prior suggestion of swapping extra armor for some combi-meltas. I disagree with you about T6; it really makes a substantial difference. That being said, I think Lash is still the better way to go. It's cheaper and has a lot more unique utility and synergy value.

Chaos' stuff is overall a little overcosted when compared to similar units in SW, BA or GK. IME to make it perform well competitively you need to focus on the unique tricks the codex has.

I disagree with saying that Khorne Berzerkers arn't very good, especially in a Landraider. Its throwing one most reliable melee unit at the enemies face, I ran 9 of them with a Nurgle Daemon Weapon lord. It insures delivery of this unit to the enemies face, most rhinos will just explode after moving 12, and popping smoke anyways.

If you do drop the landraider I suggest taking a 2nd unit of zerkers and evening them out, nothing makes my opponents squirm more than when they realize theres TWO berzerker squads. I often run lots of plague marines but their just a tarpit and need something to back them, people always ask me which rhinos he zerkers are in and focus fire them down so I have to slog the whole way through.. a rhino is just a rhino but landraiders can be exceptionally hard to crack.

Termicides have worked gloriously every game I've played them for 2 reasons.

1) They drop down and melt a tank, everytime
2) It forces your enemy to gun them down, sometimes wasting a lot of fire power just to kill 3 terminators. One game I dropped down and pop'd a predator tank, and then attracted the gunfire of 2 full 10man tactical squads which meant the rest of my army wasn't as threatened. They died in the end but soaking up firepower is a good thing.. I've since ran 2 termicide groups and when I have left over points i throw down a chainfist so my opponent really has to think about if they want to gun them down or leave them alone.. cause their going to eat the next vehicle they see ^^;

As outdated as we are, It's still a game of chance.. and I win just as much as I lose.

decoste007xt wrote:I disagree with saying that Khorne Berzerkers arn't very good, especially in a Landraider. Its throwing one most reliable melee unit at the enemies face, I ran 9 of them with a Nurgle Daemon Weapon lord. It insures delivery of this unit to the enemies face, most rhinos will just explode after moving 12, and popping smoke anyways.

If you do drop the landraider I suggest taking a 2nd unit of zerkers and evening them out, nothing makes my opponents squirm more than when they realize theres TWO berzerker squads. I often run lots of plague marines but their just a tarpit and need something to back them, people always ask me which rhinos he zerkers are in and focus fire them down so I have to slog the whole way through.. a rhino is just a rhino but landraiders can be exceptionally hard to crack.

Termicides have worked gloriously every game I've played them for 2 reasons.

1) They drop down and melt a tank, everytime
2) It forces your enemy to gun them down, sometimes wasting a lot of fire power just to kill 3 terminators. One game I dropped down and pop'd a predator tank, and then attracted the gunfire of 2 full 10man tactical squads which meant the rest of my army wasn't as threatened. They died in the end but soaking up firepower is a good thing.. I've since ran 2 termicide groups and when I have left over points i throw down a chainfist so my opponent really has to think about if they want to gun them down or leave them alone.. cause their going to eat the next vehicle they see ^^;

As outdated as we are, It's still a game of chance.. and I win just as much as I lose.

not to provoke a war of chaos or anything
but i disagree with your disagreement and so shall defend my postion

Landraider= 240 base plus deamonic possesion (a must take)
Rhino= 50 base+extra armor/havoc launcher ( your choice)

for almost 1/5 of the cost of a landraider you can get something that
A) moves the same number of troops
B) costs less
and i know that landraiders are 14 all around but think in game. you go 12in forward to get to middle of board,to unload your zerkers, next turn your opponent stops at 6in drops out 2in with melta
saying they started at 12 puts them at 20in, well within melta range of your big beast of a 240pt tank. and most likely they will pen and 1/2 the time they wreck or explode it and generally mess it up. oh and melta is like a what 10pt upgrade?

so please explain to me how raiders are good? i mean they look cool, but without all the perks that vanilla marines get they really arent that great :(

didn't mean to sound like a meanie but it just seems like a waste of points
so please explain your logic

and yes bezerkers are great against anything thats WS 4 or less and below T5 but still most armys arent that scared of them cause well 3+ and loss of all their awesomeness from 3.5 :(
that and plauge marines with 3+ by 4+ will live longer and can take special weapons



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aipoch wrote:First and foremost, I wish nothing more than for our very old and dated CSM Codex to be updated. It is half filled with uselessness, quarter filled with price ridiculousness, and badly in need of some love. That being said, there are still some gems in there. Abaddon and Daemon Princes, Obliterators and Cult Marines, Marks of Chaos for any squad to boost specific stats, and some of the coolest looking models in the game all exist in the realm of CSM. I digress, to the points marmaduke made.

In quick reply,

1) Red indicated removed items, the vindicator doesn't exist in the new list.
2) Comparing the stats of a troop vs. an elite is pointless.
3) Agreed on more, disagreed on being the only thing.
4) Agreed, just had 15 points leftover at the end, seemed nice.
5) Compared to a SM version, agreed. As an assault vehicle, disagree.
6) Complete disagree, I'll take my chances with Ld 10 and a roll off. Not always in range, and even if I am, winning a dice roll isn't anything to bank on for either player. Doesn't work if you play over half the available armies either, or if he's dead.
7) Agreed, but you're playing some pretty novice players if they're shooting daemon princes with small arms. That T6 won't make a spec of difference to the big guns that should be hunting princes, nor the power fists that seek them out.
8) I like them in small groups that deep-strike, pop a vehicle, make their points back, and should they do anything else it's a bonus. For 105 a squad, and only getting a single use out of the weapon, larger numbers just aren't viable.
9) Obvious disagree, but still curious what army you would recommend as more competitive, along with what qualifies an army as being "competitive"

GiraffeX, I really do like the idea of another 200 points to play with. Boositing the existing squads to higher numbers or adding another squad sounds pretty nice, maybe another termicide squad. I'll play around with that idea, though do you think it wise to run Berzerkers out of a vehicle that they can't assault out of? Pistols won't be doing much, and they're really just regular marines with WS 5 and 1 more attack if they themselves get assaulted.

Kevlar, I can see the argument for possession since everything is twinlinked. I'm leaning heavily towards removing the dozer blades , so I don't see why LR possession wouldn't be a little benefit. Honestly, I tend to forget about it once it's cargo is delivered. I'll work it into the next play tests.

Keep the idea's coming, many thanks for the feedback

my quick reply to your quick reply

2) i concede this point to you
3) have you found any lists in bigger tournaments that had anything else and did well?
5) could you please explain i was confused by your answer
6) i guess it is a matter of opinion, i guess just prefer T5(6) and killing stuff
7) not when they have beaten him down to 1 wound and hes almost dead, and most of the army is gone
8) agree. I meant it as in take them in more slots in groups of three
9) anything that consistently scores in the top tiers of most tournaments, IG, space puppies, dark eldar... there are a couple more i think cant remember off the top of my head.
9) continued and i don't say it to be mean or anything but when you look at the numbers chaos just doesn't get up there in tournaments, but if you have a way to make them competitive please share with the rest of us Chaos players, would love to roll face again like in 3.5 ( though that codex was a tad broke)
not saying they are bad, just not as good as some other armies

also Marks of Chaos? lose one guy and your squad loses the perks of that thing you paid good points for? maybe undivided but thats about it

but please explain your logic i am genuinely curious as to your reply


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/08/armies-in-5th-chaos-space-marines-part_24.html

i admit that what they are saying is a bit pessimistic but it is mostly right

3) have you found any lists in bigger tournaments that had anything else and did well?

*cough*
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403073.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/380621.page

Those lists are pretty similar to my Adepticon Qualifier 2nd Overall from last year, as well. No Greater Daemon in that list, though.

So, I'd like to applaud proper etiquette being observed and practiced by all in this little discussion. Much appreciated, and commended.

First things first, the land raider. It is expensive. Very expensive. 5 times the cost of the rhino. However, it is a tactical vehicle when used with the berzerkers, where as a rhino is not. The two examples are simple. First, the land raider.

It's all about charge range. A land raider gives berzerkers a 21" charge range. 12" move, disembark within 3" of the hull (or is it 2"?), and a 6" assault move. All the while, protected in 14 armor on all sides, in a vehicle that will only stop moving if it's destroyed or immobilized ( 1/2 chance on a pen, 1/6 chance on a glance, and both irrelevant if the enemy is within the full charge range).

Now for the rhino. The rhino give's my berzerkers an effective charge range of 0. They cannot disembark and charge from a rhino, so I either move the rhino up, leave them inside, hope the rhino isn't destroyed, and charge them out next turn, OR disembark them behind the rhino in cover, hope they arent themselves charged, and still wait a turn to assault.

The landraider allows me the tactical advantage of locking a unit of mine I don't want anywhere except in combat directly into combat exactly when I want them to, not a turn later or at a disadvantage. Without furious charge bonus, a berzerker is just a marine with an extra attack. With the bonus, they're assaulting most on 3/3 hits/wounds, 4 attacks each. In a squad of 8 regulars, that's 32 attacks plus some power fist goodness, say about 20 of which will hit, and about 13 of which will wound. Could be better, could be worse, but that's still quite a few wounds to avoid failures on. As for attacks back, anything that would kill a berzeker outright (power weapon, fist, etc.), would do the same to the plague marine. Granted, they're have to hit T5, but the plague marine will still not get a save of any kind.

So that's the landraider debate and why I've been taking it. IF it wasn't taken, the points saved would add another squad of termicide and bolster the ranks of the plague marines, whilst giving the berzerkers the rhino. I do feel like play testing it and seeing the difference, but I feel as though the increased killing potential from a few more plague marines and 3 more terminators will not balance out to losing the vehicle assault of the berzerkers.

I have yet to come into a situation where the model bearing the mark for the squad isn't one of the last models removed. Possible, obviously, but still not a major concern. I've only got one mark, and it's just as a beacon for the terminators should a situation arise...and because I had 5 points leftover

As for chaos being competitive, it relies heavily in both tactics and choices. The majority of our units are worthless, either tactically or because they aren't points effective. Choosing unique units that are of value tactically, and which come from the warps unique bag of tricks, is what does it for me. All of the cult marines, Daemon Princes, Obliterators, MSU terminators with non-scatter deepstrikes, and the psychic powers available are my idea of a unique bag of tricks. Not all cults are created equal, but they each have a purpose. AP3 bolters from the Sons are nothing to scoff at with BS4, taking 30 bolter shots from a squad of 10 Noise boys isn't either. Plague marines and berzerkers just form a useful backbone that can be relied upon. Plague marines WILL sit and hold an objective, without question, and lay waste with plasma and melta fire. Berzerkers WILL strike fear into any squad they charge, and they WILL kill.

Create every unit in your list with a purpose, and USE them to that end.

The land raider is a crapshoot. For example if you go up against a grey knights rifledread and razorspam, it will survive, but against mass psycannons and a vindicare assassin, you better hope to get turn one or have it in reserve or that thing will be stopped in its tracks turn one (i saw it happen in a game last night)

storm ravens flying around with multimeltas, drop pods bearing melta, all kinds of stuff kills but on the other hand if it survives or you are good at tactics and making it survive then by all means, an assault vehicle is golden. a list with much obliterators/plague is more like a shooty list anyway so why not have the thing come in reserve and just counterassault something? depending on what you face of course.

Aipoch wrote:It's all about charge range. A land raider gives berzerkers a 21" charge range. 12" move, disembark within 3" of the hull (or is it 2"?), and a 6" assault move. All the while, protected in 14 armor on all sides, in a vehicle that will only stop moving if it's destroyed or immobilized ( 1/2 chance on a pen, 1/6 chance on a glance, and both irrelevant if the enemy is within the full charge range).

Yup. It's better than people give it credit. I wish it could split fire and mount a multimelta like the loyalist ones, but it definitely has its virtues. It's 2" of a hatch, BTW. The front of which is somewhat recessed from the tracks, sadly, but you're still looking at a ~21" threat range.

Aipoch wrote:Now for the rhino. The rhino give's my berzerkers an effective charge range of 0. They cannot disembark and charge from a rhino...

That's wrong. It's a 15" threat range from any of the three hatches. Bad players acting as if it's 0" (or even 12") have handed me wins on more than one occasion.

Aipoch wrote:...so I either move the rhino up, leave them inside, hope the rhino isn't destroyed, and charge them out next turn, OR disembark them behind the rhino in cover, hope they arent themselves charged, and still wait a turn to assault.

True enough, but a smoked Rhino is reasonably durable in 5th ed, and if you have multiple Rhinos in the area it can be tough for an opponent to pop them all.

Aipoch wrote:Without furious charge bonus, a berzerker is just a marine with an extra attack.

And WS5. Tthe combination of which and the extra attack make the powerfist on the champion literally twice as effective as a fist on a regular veteran sgt or aspiring champion from other SM or CSM units. Berserkers are certainly much nastier on the charge, but even receiving a charge they hit pretty hard.

Aipoch wrote:As for attacks back, anything that would kill a berzeker outright (power weapon, fist, etc.), would do the same to the plague marine. Granted, they're have to hit T5, but the plague marine will still not get a save of any kind.

T5 and Defensive Grenades make the Plagues much more durable. They're both very good units. I give the edge to plagues only because they can take meltaguns. That said, I mostly field CSMs, and if I'm throwing in a cult squad it's normally a squad of Berserkers.

Aipoch wrote:So that's the landraider debate and why I've been taking it. IF it wasn't taken, the points saved would add another squad of termicide and bolster the ranks of the plague marines, whilst giving the berzerkers the rhino. I do feel like play testing it and seeing the difference, but I feel as though the increased killing potential from a few more plague marines and 3 more terminators will not balance out to losing the vehicle assault of the berzerkers.

They're both good options. The LR gives you more mobility and a faster assault threat, but is inherently a bit of a gamble. Deep-striking enemy melta, an ill-timed roll of 1 going through terrain, or an enemy who manages to immobilize or destroy it from across the table with a railgun, manticore, or lucky lascannon will hose it. It's more of a "win big, lose big" choice, in the sense that it will do well a lot of the time, but when it does fail it really hurts to have those 200+ points not doing the job you need them to do.

Aipoch wrote:As for chaos being competitive, it relies heavily in both tactics and choices. The majority of our units are worthless, either tactically or because they aren't points effective.

I entirely disagree. IMO only a minority of CSM units are close to worthless, and only a small number genuinely worthless (spawn are the only truly inarguable one).

Aipoch wrote:Choosing unique units that are of value tactically, and which come from the warps unique bag of tricks, is what does it for me. All of the cult marines, Daemon Princes, Obliterators, MSU terminators with non-scatter deepstrikes, and the psychic powers available are my idea of a unique bag of tricks.

On this I agree with you again.

Mannahnin wrote:

3) have you found any lists in bigger tournaments that had anything else and did well?

*cough*
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403073.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/380621.page

Those lists are pretty similar to my Adepticon Qualifier 2nd Overall from last year, as well. No Greater Daemon in that list, though.

I conced the point to you. Perhaps it is just that I generaly dont have much luck with chaos :(

one a slightly unrelated note have you ever tried a unit of 5 raptors with 2 flamers?!?!? Tried it yesterday in a game and it almost single handedly wipped a squad of space wolf marines ( can't remember their exact name) off the table. They were awesome.

Oh and spawn aren't so bad when you get it for free after turning someone into a blob via gift of chaos just a thought for you there


Back on topic

Aipoch would you give us a fresh post with what the list currently is?

I have not tried double-flamer Raptors yet. I've been tempted to try double-melta in a larger MSU list, figuring you can always use more melta and at 120pts it's not a crazy-expensive delivery system.

You're right that double flamers can be really good though; any unit capable of stacking multiple template shots can be capable of stacking up huge numbers of hits and wounds. I used to do this with Chosen, running squads of 5 guys with triple flamer, double melta. A couple of times I lashed big squads of Orks into perfect teardrop shapes in front of the units and wound get 40+ hits. It was beautiful.

It's just a shame that a Raptor champ can't get a combi-flamer to stack a third template on there. You can do it with CSMs, though.

Mannahnin wrote:I have not tried double-flamer Raptors yet. I've been tempted to try double-melta in a larger MSU list, figuring you can always use more melta and at 120pts it's not a crazy-expensive delivery system.

You're right that double flamers can be really good though; any unit capable of stacking multiple template shots can be capable of stacking up huge numbers of hits and wounds. I used to do this with Chosen, running squads of 5 guys with triple flamer, double melta. A couple of times I lashed big squads of Orks into perfect teardrop shapes in front of the units and wound get 40+ hits. It was beautiful.

It's just a shame that a Raptor champ can't get a combi-flamer to stack a third template on there. You can do it with CSMs, though.

40+ sounds awesome.

And as for the idea of taking a group of csm's with 3 flamers wouldn't they lose a lot of mobility? every time I have tried dual flamer raptors ( which I admit is only about 5 times) it is more their ability to go the 12 in that really made it worth it. That and the ability to launch an assault afterwords has given my opponent a bad day every time it was done

But it is probobly personal preferance at that point as to csm's with flamers or raptors

Well, the CSMs would be in a Rhino. Disembarking from a vehicle actually gives you the best flexibility of model placement to maximize your templates. I would never put a flamer in a walking squad.

Mannahnin wrote:I have not tried double-flamer Raptors yet. I've been tempted to try double-melta in a larger MSU list, figuring you can always use more melta and at 120pts it's not a crazy-expensive delivery system.

You're right that double flamers can be really good though; any unit capable of stacking multiple template shots can be capable of stacking up huge numbers of hits and wounds. I used to do this with Chosen, running squads of 5 guys with triple flamer, double melta. A couple of times I lashed big squads of Orks into perfect teardrop shapes in front of the units and wound get 40+ hits. It was beautiful.

It's just a shame that a Raptor champ can't get a combi-flamer to stack a third template on there. You can do it with CSMs, though.

I've tried the Raptorcide a few times and find it lacking. While it is good that they do not compete with terminators or chosen for a slot, their greatly reduced survivability compared to termicide or outflanking chosen in a rhino means they usually end up doing nothing but providing an easy kill point for your opponent. Unless you scatter within 6" of your target they most likely won't get off a shot. And even getting a good scatter is no guarantee they will hit, penetrate, and get a decent penetration roll.

With termicide you have a chain fist and good survivability. People won't want to waste much resources on them once the combi-meltas are empty. With raptors you have a 5 man squad in power armor with 2 nasty guns screaming "kill me" to everything in shooting range.

Yeah; definitely need to be used on a table with good LOS-blocking terrain to limit the guns on them. Probably only worth considering at or over 2kpts, or conversely, in small (1k or under) games.

So, the list as was just played yesterday vs. dark eldar. DE player brought, best of my recollection, two kabalites in raiders, one with an anchient hammy, both with dark lances, one dark lance in each squad, liquifer on the hammy. Two venoms, one with trueborn and blasters, one with incubi, klavex, and archon (shadowfield). Two jetfighters rounded out his list, with a squad of jetbikes, 6 i believe, in reserve. Corners, two objectives, chaos won the roll and went first, no init stealing.

HQ
Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoS
LoS

TROOPS
Plague Marines x 6
Melta x 2
Champion
Power Fist
Rhino
Extra Armor

Plague Marines x 6
Melta x 2
Champion
Power Fist
Rhino
Extra Armor

Berzerkers x 9
Champion
Power Fist
Personal Icon

ELITE
Terminators x 3
Combi-Melta x 3
Landraider
Extra Armor

HEAVY SUPPORT
Obliterator x 2
Obliterator x 2
Obliterator x 2

1750 on the nose.

The game was fairly one sided. I played a standard target isolation game, focusing on popping a single transport each round until it popped. First raider took all 6 oblits to pop with lascannons due to some nice save throws from the flickerfield. Land raider did not rush forward, but instead attempted to pop a venom blocking LoS to the other raider. Flicker field saved 3 pen's from two las cannons and one heavy bolter, the other pen destroyed the splinter cannon.

Daemon princes were in position to lash whip the exposed kabalites into assault possition; they were moved a total of 19 inches towards the two daemons. 3 survived the combat, no wounds on the princes.

Plague marines rushed towards a lone jetfighter, spent the majority of the game giving it grief. Both razorwings did very poorly with missle fire. All 8 were monoscythe, and only managed to kill a total of 2 models from my entire army (both of which were berzerkers in a later turn.

All in all, that's how the game played out. He was unable to pop any of my vehicles due to bad rolling and him not focus firing a single target, a requirement of DE in my opinion. The landraider stayed alive to rush in and charge the second set of kabalites. The kabalites were wiped out that turn, berzerkers suffering no wounds.

Terminators were delayed until turn four. By then all the vehicles were popped, so they just came down and tried to destroy the jetfighter that wasnt being harrassed by the plague marines.

All said and done, I lost 3 obliterators, 2 plague marines, 2 berzerker, no wounds on the daemon princes, and held 1 objective on turn 5; I killed all his troops

NOW, about these raptor squads with twin flamers...that sounds awesome. I've always liked the models, but have considered them to be too expensive in points to be worth it. However, if I swapped the landraider out for a rhino, I feel like they would be a very interesting choice to try out.

As far as the rhino assault range, I'm a bit confused on how you're figuring it gives a 15" threat. It still make's me feel uneasy when I have to split moving and assaulting into two turns, but perhaps it is more cost effective points wise if they do have significantly better odds of still killing most MEQ's when charged from WS 5 and 3 attacks each, plus power fist.

Aipoch wrote:
As far as the rhino assault range, I'm a bit confused on how you're figuring it gives a 15" threat. It still make's me feel uneasy when I have to split moving and assaulting into two turns, but perhaps it is more cost effective points wise if they do have significantly better odds of still killing most MEQ's when charged from WS 5 and 3 attacks each, plus power fist.

i will try to explain the rhino thing real quick.

you move forward turn one. then next turn before you move your rhino guys get out 2.9in so back of base is within 2 in of door then move 6 for 8.9 total, they can the assault 6in, thought that only equals 14.9in so idk where the last .1 comes from but it is basically a 15in threat range. though Mannahnin can probobly explain it better then i can


also CONGRATZ on the win


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I have not tried double-flamer Raptors yet. I've been tempted to try double-melta in a larger MSU list, figuring you can always use more melta and at 120pts it's not a crazy-expensive delivery system.

You're right that double flamers can be really good though; any unit capable of stacking multiple template shots can be capable of stacking up huge numbers of hits and wounds. I used to do this with Chosen, running squads of 5 guys with triple flamer, double melta. A couple of times I lashed big squads of Orks into perfect teardrop shapes in front of the units and wound get 40+ hits. It was beautiful.

It's just a shame that a Raptor champ can't get a combi-flamer to stack a third template on there. You can do it with CSMs, though.

I've tried the Raptorcide a few times and find it lacking. While it is good that they do not compete with terminators or chosen for a slot, their greatly reduced survivability compared to termicide or outflanking chosen in a rhino means they usually end up doing nothing but providing an easy kill point for your opponent. Unless you scatter within 6" of your target they most likely won't get off a shot. And even getting a good scatter is no guarantee they will hit, penetrate, and get a decent penetration roll.

With termicide you have a chain fist and good survivability. People won't want to waste much resources on them once the combi-meltas are empty. With raptors you have a 5 man squad in power armor with 2 nasty guns screaming "kill me" to everything in shooting range.

and when i said use them i ment as a unit you put on the table and not deepstrike,

12in move plus template gives them a pretty big threat range. 18in if you include assault

which is awesome, and with the way the rule is they can be inside a building on the bottom floor and just go "through" it cause it only matters if they start and end their turn in terrian.

maybe try that? just a suggestion

Ah, ok that does make a bit of sense. I haven't tried that technique before with berzerkers. Still make's me feel like I'm losing a beloved tactic.

Also, leaving the raider in reserve will not work. I cannot bring the berzerkers onto the board inside the raider as far as I know, as it is not their transport or a heavy choice. It gets set up on the field with the berzerkers right behind it. First turn, they hop in, and it sits and shoots or peels out for death and glory.

And many thanks!. Seriously though, he was incredibly lucky on flickerfield saves and incredibly unlucky on rolling to pen. The only other thing of annoyance was that damned 2+ invuln. He made 17 saves before he failed one over 2 rounds of cc. Obnoxious.

Aipoch wrote:Ah, ok that does make a bit of sense. I haven't tried that technique before with berzerkers. Still make's me feel like I'm losing a beloved tactic.

Also, leaving the raider in reserve will not work. I cannot bring the berzerkers onto the board inside the raider as far as I know, as it is not their transport or a heavy choice. It gets set up on the field with the berzerkers right behind it. First turn, they hop in, and it sits and shoots or peels out for death and glory.

And many thanks!. Seriously though, he was incredibly lucky on flickerfield saves and incredibly unlucky on rolling to pen. The only other thing of annoyance was that damned 2+ invuln. He made 17 saves before he failed one over 2 rounds of cc. Obnoxious.

a relatively easy way around that

either kill the unit hes in and make him take fearless wounds or direct all your attacks against him. a unit of bezerkers would do that pretty well.
i agree that it is pretty annoying

another idea would be to assault him with a unit of terminators to kill the unit hes with

Aipoch wrote:Ah, ok that does make a bit of sense. I haven't tried that technique before with berzerkers. Still make's me feel like I'm losing a beloved tactic.

Yup. A 25mm base is near enough an inch that it makes practically no difference. ~15" threat range of disembark, move and assault from any of the hatches is pretty good. Especially when you combine it with Lash. One squad of Berserkers in a LR costs a little bit less than two squads in Rhinos. That's the tradeoff. You generally get into assault a turn faster with the landraider, but it's more eggs in a single basket.

Aipoch wrote:Also, leaving the raider in reserve will not work. I cannot bring the berzerkers onto the board inside the raider as far as I know, as it is not their transport or a heavy choice. It gets set up on the field with the berzerkers right behind it. First turn, they hop in, and it sits and shoots or peels out for death and glory.

If you buy it for terminators, that's true.

Reading through your list I have one suggestion

move 2 obliterators into the other squads so you have two squads of 3
then drop the personal icon on the bezerkers
finally move the dedicated landraider to heavy support and upgrade the extra armor to possesion. Sure it reduces your BS to 3 but all your guns are twinlinked so it won't make too big of a difference. Plus you will get to ignore all ones and twos so you can almost always move and shoot.

The rational behind this is that you can then start the bezerkers in the raider and start the whole thing in reserve if you so wish

just a thought

So the only thing different by switching from three squads of two, to two squads of three, is a small difference but one still worth mentioning. Do you think it'll matter losing the extra target choice? With three oblit squads, that's three different targets which can be chosen. I waste fewer shots this way, so if I pop the transport after only two squads shooting lascannons, I've got a third squad that can fire to plasma cannons to kill the rest. Again, a minor point to mention, but one still worth bringing up. Starting the berzerkers right behind the raider hasnt been an issue yet, so I'm really not worried about getting them on the board while embarked.

Now, assuming I did mix it up a little and try to take the land raider out entirely, switching in a rhino, what would you all recommend the points be spent on? Adding a new unit(s), or beefing up the one's I currently have?

Please and thanks for the advice

1. If you're going to take the LR, I agree with marmaduke that it'd be smart to consolidate the oblits and hake the LR HS, thus allowing the berserks to start embarked in it, and to ride on if you want to Reserve. Yes, you lose a bit of target flexibility, but OTOH this will make your lash/plasmacannons combo more effective. In practice what often winds up happening when you do this is that you bunch up a squad nice and tight, but then one of the two plasmacannons (in a two man squad) either rolls a 1 to hit or gets a bad scatter. With three oblits you're much more likely to get one direct hit, or two minor scatters, and wipe out the enemy unit.

2. If you do swap out the LR, get more stuff. I would say another smallish unit of Plagues or CSMs in a Rhino, or alternately (the way I personally would so it), take two squads of five lesser daemons, personal icons in your rhino squads, and beef up the terminators a bit. Probably something like:

Lash prince: 155
Lash prince: 155
5 Terminators, Combi-Melta x 3, power fist: 175
8 Khorne Berzerkers w/Champion,Power Fist, Personal Icon: 213
Rhino w/combi-melta: 45
6 Plague Marines, personal icon, Meltagun x 2, champion with power fist: 203
Rhino w/combi-melta: 45
5 Plague Marines, personal icon, Meltagun x 2: 140
Rhino: 35
5 LDs: 65
5 LDs: 65
Obliterators x 2: 150
Obliterators x 2: 150
Obliterators x 2: 150
Total: 1746