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Greetings!

I'm asking this on behalf of a friend who plays Grey Knights - this stemming from a rule debate he had at a tournament this Saturday.

Quite simply:

In regards to the Culexus Assassin's Animus Speculum ability, how many psykers does a unit of Inquitorial Psykers count as?

(a) Each Psyker within the unit counts as an individual Spyker

(b) The entire unit counts a single Psyker

My friend argued for (a), his opponent argued for (b)

I personally agree with (a), due to my perception that the description of the entire unit counting as a single psyker is in reference to the Psychic Barrage ability, and not a rule for the unit as a whole.

The opponent additionally pointed towards the grey knight Brotherhood of Psykers special ruling, though it seems quite clear to me at least that this only affects actual Grey Knight units, and not every unit in the codex.

Thoughts?

the whole squad counts as one psyker. The description for them has that nasty "etc." in there so they behave like brotherhood of psykers and thus one unit will count as one.

At the risk of further acrimony I agree with you mate.

There is a pretty good reasoning for each Psyker counting individually, I like you read it as they count as a group for the offensive actions but for other things they are individuals, like getting shot by a Condemner Boltgun for example.

There is an equal amount the other way as well.

In short it isn't entirely clear.

It could make for a nasty bunker. You could put the Assassin at the heart and surrounded by pskyers in cover but honestly that probably wouldn't be as effective as it might seem at first thought. It is a very big and weakly armoured target.

No, in "short" it is 100% clear

The unit entry does not contain the "PSYKER" special rule, so they are not, individually, psykers.

Only if you ignore this simple fact can you come to any other conclusion. The ONLY thing that lets them use any psychic power at all is ALSO the rule that says they are only one psyker

You can also claim that because they are "Psykers" in name that they are therefore "psykers" in rules, however in that case Heavy flamers are now Heavy, Fire dragons are dragons that are permanently alight, and ASsault cannons can be moved and fired by anyone as they are now assault weapons.

And there we have, as predicted, the other view point

...the one backed by rules, the way the entire game is set up, you mean?

Your opinion has as much validity as claiming "the sky is green" is an alternative viewpoint.

The sky can be green during a Thunder storm.

Did you ever see a green sky?
Well, I seen a blue sky
And I seen a red sky
Yeah, I seen a yellow sky
Ha-ha-ha-ha

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, in "short" it is 100% clear

The unit entry does not contain the "PSYKER" special rule, so they are not, individually, psykers.

Only if you ignore this simple fact can you come to any other conclusion. The ONLY thing that lets them use any psychic power at all is ALSO the rule that says they are only one psyker

You can also claim that because they are "Psykers" in name that they are therefore "psykers" in rules, however in that case Heavy flamers are now Heavy, Fire dragons are dragons that are permanently alight, and ASsault cannons can be moved and fired by anyone as they are now assault weapons.

Ah, you've hit the nail on the head it seems, as usual - I appreciate it, thanks!

I'm completely guilty of assuming they were of the unit type "psyker" from looking at their name, rather than their actual unit type. Ironically, as far as I was told, this argument was never brought up in the debate I mentioned, so it seems several skimmed over it.

But, the lack of that term in the unit type seems to completely cement what you say - they are a group of normal infantry, but have an ability that they can use as if they were a single psyker.

Magpie wrote:It could make for a nasty bunker. You could put the Assassin at the heart and surrounded by pskyers in cover but honestly that probably wouldn't be as effective as it might seem at first thought. It is a very big and weakly armoured target.

Hah, this is the exact reason my friend fielded it, thinking he could do that.

Magpie wrote:The sky can be green during a Thunder storm.

Which si not the same statement as "the sky IS green"

It doesnt alter that your view poiint has zero rules validity. None, nada, zip, zilch. Only by ignoring the actual unit special rules, the rulebook rules and assuming that name of unit == special rules of unit which leads to the aforementioned scaled blazing Eldar can you declare there to be "another viewpoint", and if you are ignoring rules to do so, from a rules perspective it is entirely invalid.

Also, for similar reasons GK tanks don't add one because they aren't psykers either.

Well, they are psykers, but only for 2 specific reasons - taking psychic tests and for psychic hoods.

Just to play devil's advocate, the Culexus' Animus Speculum rules do not actually specify that "Psyker" refers to models with the Psyker special rule.

It can really be read both ways, as either: "models with the Psyker rule" (which would make GK units a single psyker, "warband" Psykers would be none, etc), or "Psyker" models, aka the Psykers you can purchase in a warband.

It's very similar to the old problem (now FAQ'd) of Fabius Bile's upgrades to "Chaos Space Marine squads" referring to either "squads in the CSM codex" or "the unit specifically called Chaos Space Marines."

As long as both players can agree on the interpretation, then RAW is very clear, but I just wanted to point out that there isn't anything in the Animus Speculum rules that specifies to what "Psyker" refers. Leave it to GW to make a model with the same name as the colloquial name of a model with a certain special rule, then NOT give that special rule to the model of the same name, and then have a piece of wargear that supposedly interacts with one of the two of them in the same codex.

Actually, hold on, does this interpretation mean that the Psyker unit can never affect a Culexus assassin's Animus Speculum ability, as they are not actual "psykers" at the point in which the Culexus uses his wargear?

I guess it would. Huh.

Kharrak wrote:Actually, hold on, does this interpretation mean that the Psyker unit can never affect a Culexus assassin's Animus Speculum ability, as they are not actual "psykers" at the point in which the Culexus uses his wargear?

I guess it would. Huh.

If you assume the Animus Speculum means "models with the Psyker rule" when it says "Psykers," then yeah, that's the way it works by RAW.

thecapn226 wrote:Also, for similar reasons GK tanks don't add one because they aren't psykers either.

Actually they do. They have Psychic Pilot which is I quote:

A vehicle with this speical rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) .....

Morpheus wrote:

thecapn226 wrote:Also, for similar reasons GK tanks don't add one because they aren't psykers either.

Actually they do. They have Psychic Pilot which is I quote:

A vehicle with this speical rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) .....

You left off the important part of that quote.

... for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

I am going to go with the Battle squad give a +1 for each model that is not the overseer in the squad. The reason is everyone except the Overseer has the "Psyker" special rule. The Psychic Choir tells that the squad is treated as a single psyker for the purposes of using their power. That is the only reason it is counted as 1 psyker.


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rigeld2 wrote:

Morpheus wrote:

thecapn226 wrote:Also, for similar reasons GK tanks don't add one because they aren't psykers either.

Actually they do. They have Psychic Pilot which is I quote:

A vehicle with this speical rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) .....

You left off the important part of that quote.

... for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Actually you missed the other part that is important.

... and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods

They are a psyker level1 , and for the the purposes of tests and hoods they have a Ld of 10. Not that they are only a Psyker for the purpose of hoods and tests.

Morpheus wrote:Actually you missed the other part that is important.

... and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods

They are a psyker level1 , and for the the purposes of tests and hoods they have a Ld of 10. Not that they are only a Psyker for the purpose of hoods and tests.

Is the Animus Speculum a Psychic Test or a Psychic Hood?

Also, could you point out where in the Inquisitorial Psykers entry that they have the "Psyker" special rule?

The main problem with the Animus Speculum is that it refers to Psykers. By and large, pretty much everywhere in the rules, any reference to being a Psyker means that you have the "Psyker" special rule. Treating the Animus Speculum differently because you want more shots from it isn't exactly the most honest interpretation.

A clarification that it only refers to models with the "Psyker" special rule (like pretty much all other Psyker specific rules) would be nice, but probably unnecessary.

IcyCool wrote:
Is the Animus Speculum a Psychic Test or a Psychic Hood?

Also, could you point out where in the Inquisitorial Psykers entry that they have the "Psyker" special rule?

The AS is neither,

IG page 47, Special Rules: Psyker (Sanctioned Psykers only)

Morpheus wrote:The AS is neither,

IG page 47, Special Rules: Psyker (Sanctioned Psykers only)

Ah, you appear to have missed the mention of the Grey Knights codex in the OP (the psykers in that are different to the IG PBS, the Grey Knight henchmen psykers don't have the "Psyker" special rule. Instead, they function together as a single psyker).

So if you agree that the AS is neither a Psychic Test nor a Psychic Hood, how can you claim that a Grey Knight vehicle with the Psychic Pilot rule counts for the AS?

Morpheus - you saee in your rewriting you have added in a comma that doesnt exist? That ENTIRELY changes the meaning of the sentence

If that comma were there, then indeed they would be psykers. Sadly however that comma ISNT there, and therefore the WHOLE sentence is covered in the "for the purposes of..." clause.

So no, they are not psykers when the AS is used.

IcyCool wrote:
Ah, you appear to have missed the mention of the Grey Knights codex in the OP (the psykers in that are different to the IG PBS, the Grey Knight henchmen psykers don't have the "Psyker" special rule. Instead, they function together as a single psyker).

So if you agree that the AS is neither a Psychic Test nor a Psychic Hood, how can you claim that a Grey Knight vehicle with the Psychic Pilot rule counts for the AS?

Your right! I was mixing codex . Thanks!

Reading the AS rules it says "For every Psyker within 12", it does not specify if the psyker is a special rule or a unit name, Because they are using a Psychic power I would argue they are each a +1 for the AS, If you argue they are not a psyker, I would simply ask how can a unit that can use a Psychic ability not be a Psyker?

The vehicle is easy. The entire rule is:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods. If the vehicle suffers a Perils of the Warp, treat as a glancing hit.

They are a Psyker. For purposes of Psi tests and hoods they have a Ld10. The "and Ld 10" is what the Psi tests and hoods is parsed with, not with the Psyker.

A good way to think of it, "I am a College Graduate and have 18 years experience with my company for purposes of determining if I can vest in my pension."

I am a graduate, but that has no bearing on my vesting in my pension. The 18 years with my company is for pension purposes, the pension does not care If I graduated college or can take the college away.



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nosferatu1001 wrote:Morpheus - you saee in your rewriting you have added in a comma that doesnt exist? That ENTIRELY changes the meaning of the sentence

If that comma were there, then indeed they would be psykers. Sadly however that comma ISNT there, and therefore the WHOLE sentence is covered in the "for the purposes of..." clause.

So no, they are not psykers when the AS is used.

If this was true, I could also then argue that the vehicle cannot use Fortitude because it is not a psyker and does not have a Ld value to try and use the power.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Morpheus - you saee in your rewriting you have added in a comma that doesnt exist? That ENTIRELY changes the meaning of the sentence

If that comma were there, then indeed they would be psykers. Sadly however that comma ISNT there, and therefore the WHOLE sentence is covered in the "for the purposes of..." clause.

So no, they are not psykers when the AS is used.

If this was true, I could also then argue that the vehicle cannot use Fortitude because it is not a psyker and does not have a Ld value to try and use the power.

jgehunter wrote:

Morpheus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Morpheus - you saee in your rewriting you have added in a comma that doesnt exist? That ENTIRELY changes the meaning of the sentence

If that comma were there, then indeed they would be psykers. Sadly however that comma ISNT there, and therefore the WHOLE sentence is covered in the "for the purposes of..." clause.

So no, they are not psykers when the AS is used.

If this was true, I could also then argue that the vehicle cannot use Fortitude because it is not a psyker and does not have a Ld value to try and use the power.

But that would be wrong because it tells us to treat it as one

Right, however, we only treat it as a Psyker (with a Ld of 10) for the purpose of psychic tests and psychic hoods.

We can agree to disagree on this one, The last thought I would leave you with is where is the rules for performing all this? Under the Chapter heading "Psykers" What does the AS do? Adds +1 for every Psyker within 12". I can very easily argue if you are using the Psykers rules you you are satisfying the condition for a +1 for the AS.

Morpheus wrote:We can agree to disagree on this one, The last thought I would leave you with is where is the rules for performing all this? Under the Chapter heading "Psykers" What does the AS do? Adds +1 for every Psyker within 12". I can very easily argue if you are using the Psykers rules you you are satisfying the condition for a +1 for the AS.

So apples are oranges right? A cat has claws that doesn't mean that something that has claws is a cat

Nope I am just arguing that anyone using the Psyker rules is a Psyker.

Of course it is also possible (I don't think it likely) that the 'Psyker" that AS refers to is the model named "Psyker" (aka Inquisitorial Psyker)

Morpheus wrote:Nope I am just arguing that anyone using the Psyker rules is a Psyker.

Which is different than arguing that anyone who uses something resembling the Psyker rules intrinsically has the "Psyker" special rule, correct? I just want to be clear on your stance.