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They need a bit of spice to really compete with the more recent books IMO. Rather than change the rules too much I was thinking of a few simple stat changes:
1. Knights of the Realm get +1 S
2. Questing Knights/Grail Knights get +1 T
3. Paladins/Lords get +1 S

the idea is to make them a bit more elite on the noncharging turns, Thoughts?

I think Bretts are pretty competitve already and do not need many changes.

However, builds seem to be a bit standardized.

No, just not. They are regular humans, Str4 is the same Str as Ogres and Chaos Warriors.

Prissy inbred nobles should NEVER be in the same catagory as the above monsters.



Maybe give them a Morning Star option.

---The unit may take Morning Stars for 2 pts per model.

Kiwidru wrote:They need a bit of spice to really compete with the more recent books IMO. Rather than change the rules too much I was thinking of a few simple stat changes:
1. Knights of the Realm get +1 S (They used to be Strength 4 back in 5th edition so it's ok but unlikely to be changed)
2. Questing Knights/Grail Knights get +1 T (Grail knights maybe as they have drunk from the grail but not questing knights as they have not yet drunk from it - also, they get a lower armor save to balance their great weapons which give them strength 6 all the time)
3. Paladins/Lords get +1 S (this would make them as strong as a vampire lord, a supernatural creature, so it is not reasonable).

the idea is to make them a bit more elite on the noncharging turns, Thoughts?

Better to upgrade the infantry so the knights get better support. All lance using cavalry is weaker when not charging so that is just part of the game. Better infantry would help reduce the reliance on the knights. Bretonnian men at arms used to be better in previous editions, with weapon skill 3.

Also, Bretonnian knights can use combat reform to adopt a standard formation to get more attacks on subsequent turns. Twelve knights can charge in in lance formation, then, if they don't break the enemy, adopt a 6x2 formation so they continue to get lots of attacks. Infantry blocks can be used to help break enemy steadfast, especially if the infantry get a boost to their weapon skill.

Bretts don't want to leave the Lance formation. Brett lances actually have a good chance of negating steadfast as they can get 4 ranks, unusual for cavelry.

Grey Templar wrote:Bretts don't want to leave the Lance formation. Brett lances actually have a good chance of negating steadfast as they can get 4 ranks, unusual for cavelry.

If you use 15 knights you can get 5 ranks - add 3 characters and you can get 6 ranks.

However

If the knights get stuck in combat the lance becomes a liability as it restricts attacks. The key is to use infantry (Men at Arms) to break steadfast and/or have the knights inflict so many wounds that the enemy loses it's rank advantage.

The knights charge in in lance formation and then use combat reform to adopt a regular formation if the enemy does not break in the first round. In the lance formation you only get 6 riders and 3 horses attacking after the first round.


Example for 15 knights

xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx

Reform if stuck in combat to

xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx

This gives 10 knights and 5 horses attacking with 3 ranks (+2 ranks for combat res)

for 12 knights

xxx
xxx
xxx

reform to

xxxxxx
xxxxxx

This gives 12 knights and 6 horses attacking with 2 ranks (+1rank for combat res)


Here is an attack supported by men at arms

Men at arms
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
oooooxxxx
oooooxxxx Knights in Lance Formation attacking the flank
oooooxxxx
ooooo
ooooo
ooooo
ooooo
ooooo
Enemy

Assume the enemy doesn't break due to still having steadfast (casualties added in) - combat reform to

Men at Arms
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
oooooxx
oooooxx
oooooxx Knights
oooooxx
oooooxx
oooooxx
Enemy

After this round the enemy should lose steadfast due to casualties and the Bret men at arms ranks.

I guess the question to ask is; What should the Brettonian army look like?


Should it be mostly heavy cavalry with a few units of infantry to support it? [buff the knights so you do not need support to win combats]

Should it be mostly cheap horde infantry with several units of knights to support it? [buff the peasants so you do not need as many knights]



@Duke_Corwin

The way you are describing it, the brettonian player needs 2 units [and not terribly cheap ones at that] in a perfect position [M@A and knights both making their charge rolls AND the knights getting a flank charge] in order to kill one enemy unit.

If you can pull this off against every enemy unit on the field then you are golden, the issue is that the enemy player should be doing everything they can to prevent this.

Then you run into the problem of a unit that has a larger bus then you do. Steadfast is the direct counter to cavalry with lances. You take a hard hit, killing a bunch of cheap models and then the cheap guys grind you down with more attacks and rank bonuses. Yes the combat reform gives you more attacks, more S3 attacks that are not likely to win you any combats.



I guess they way i see it, the brettonians need a way for the peasants to be able to keep a unit pinned in combat long enough for the knights to get a chance to charge in the flank. I guess a bretonnian army would look like a bunch of medium to large sized units of Peasants with 1-2 units of knights to work their way down the line getting flank after flank, with enough shooting units to take out any blockers or the like.

The issue is that people play brettonians because they want to play an "all knight" army, not a mostly infantry with a few heroic flank charging units [every other army already looks like that already]




So basically it comes back to one of 2 solutions. Either you make the Brettonians have more of a focus on infantry and less on the knights, [easier to balance, but it takes out some of their flavor] OR you give Knights some way to better fight large blocks of infantry [harder to balance as Knights now counter their counter, but it lets the army keep their ALL KNIGHTS ALL THE TIME flavor]

Eighth edition is an infantry dominated game. The current Bretonnian book was written when all cavalry armies were viable. I remember seeing Bret armies with no men at arms in the past. To be honest all cavalry armies were a one trick pony (pun intended). They were all about breaking the enemy on the charge with little staying power.

By improving men at arms and making a few more tweaks ( as suggested by the OP maybe increase knights of the realm back to strength 4 base) it will fit the themes of 8th edition better. The men at arms either take the enemy charge, hopefully have enough ranks to remain steadfast, then the knights charge into the enemy flanks on the next turn or make a combined infantry and cavalry charge into the enemy.

Thus instead of the knights simply charging straight in (somewhat boring play style to be honest) a more tactical style of play is needed.

Oh and while the Brets are setting up their attacks they have longbows, trebuchets and magic to soften up the enemy and reduce enemy ranks.

Men at Arms just need to be priced properly.

Maybe add in an option to field Knights on foot and remove the restriction that their characters must purchase a mount unless they take the Virtue of Empathy.


Knights need some options. Maybe the ability to swap their lances for a single handed weapon that gives +1Str at all times. Maybe maces?

That would give them a trade off between more killyness in one round and staying power.


as it is, Knights are great when they charge. They can still do plenty of damage and with the Lance formation they can outrank anything short of a really deep bus. So they can still break infantry on the charge, particularly hordes, but if they get stuck or get charged themselves they become nothing more then regular humans with 2+ saves.

Being able to field foot knights and removal of some of the more arbitrary restrictions on the army list would go a long way towards making Bretonnians equal to most armies.

Understandably Bretonnians should have to pay a premium for elite foot infantry but having them completely cut out of the list makes 1/6 of missions a near impossibility for the army.

I think they would actually be cheap because they would represent poor knights who can't afford a horse, a knight whose horse has died, or a knight fighting on foot because of practical reasons. at least historically anyway.

There was also the fact that horses are expensive. a middle ages Knight with only a couple of horses would be loath to put such an expensive investment at risk and so he might dismount to fight because of monetary reasons.



I'm thinking they have HA and shield as basic equipment. with an option to take Halberds or Great Weapons. maybe a full plate armor option.

mounted Knights could get a full plate option too. Maybe one unit per army may be upgraded to full plate(4+ armor)

The unit would have a 1+ save while mounted and a 3+ when on foot(with shield)

the explaination could be that these knights are the personal retainers of their lord and have been equipped with the finest armor money can buy(imported from the Empire perhaps?)

Grey Templar wrote:I think they would actually be cheap because they would represent poor knights who can't afford a horse, a knight whose horse has died, or a knight fighting on foot because of practical reasons. at least historically anyway.

There was also the fact that horses are expensive. a middle ages Knight with only a couple of horses would be loath to put such an expensive investment at risk and so he might dismount to fight because of monetary reasons.....

I'm thinking they have HA and shield as basic equipment. with an option to take Halberds or Great Weapons. maybe a full plate armor option.

I think they'd have to be cheaper than mounted knights obviously but they should be more expensive than an empire equivalent model. As Bretonnia is the heavy cavalry army I think they should have to pay a premium to break out of their template so to speak.

At least HW/Shield and GWs should be an option.

Maybe fluff them as poor questing knights who are unable to afford to fight on horse back or have given up their horses in some sort of religious vow as well.

Am I the only one who wouldnt mind some Bretonnian Navy support. Like Marines or something. Of course since the coastal kingdoms do not see eye to eye with their inland brethren then maybe include some limitations and the such

Anyways in case that was all recton years ago I agree that foot knights should be an option.

And Questing Knights need something. Like ASF or something to make them at all worthy

kenshin620 wrote:Am I the only one who wouldnt mind some Bretonnian Navy support. Like Marines or something. Of course since the coastal kingdoms do not see eye to eye with their inland brethren then maybe include some limitations and the such

Anyways in case that was all recton years ago I agree that foot knights should be an option.

Wouldn't Marines end up looking like Men at Arms with Hand weapons? What would make them different if their fighting on the land?

And Questing Knights need something. Like ASF or something to make them at all worthy

Agreed although ASF would be a bit much. Maybe Hatred or some such. In the alternative just dropping them down to the same price as KoTR and losing their special rules and I think they'd be a viable alternative to Knights of the Realm.

walledin wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Am I the only one who wouldnt mind some Bretonnian Navy support. Like Marines or something. Of course since the coastal kingdoms do not see eye to eye with their inland brethren then maybe include some limitations and the such

Anyways in case that was all recton years ago I agree that foot knights should be an option.

Wouldn't Marines end up looking like Men at Arms with Hand weapons? What would make them different if their fighting on the land?

Probably better base LD and fighting skills. Maybe ambushers or something. I just would like to have something other than random field peasants filling the ranks

You could always just convert up your peasants to look like marines if its just the appearance that is annoying you. Although one way or another getting some sort of Scouting peasant unit would fit in with the army. Something like the Hermimaults (sp) and faceless from the Knights of the Grail book.

What about a special rule for knights?


Something like, if they outnumber the opponent in terms of ranks they 'penetrate' to the other side. I.e they go through the enemy and appear on the other side, with a free reform. Only on their first round of combat (lance breaks) subsequent rounds they combat as normal (unless they have magic lances).

Just a thought. As when played bretonnians v ogres the other night my Brets (2 ranks) took on 2 ogres. Logically they would have hit them with their lances as they passed then circled behind and charged again. They wouldn't just charge and stop.


Alternatively, give Bret cav impact hits...a HA Man + Barded Horse is some serious weight...

I really wish all Heavy Cav got Impact Hits. Seems logical. Some way to break those silly 50 man steadfast units

I also think Bowmen are underpowered - the Longbow was a devastating weapon and could go through plate armour pretty easily (depending upon the head). So, a S4 for that would make up for week humans elsewhere. Bear in mind the strength of the weapon comes from terminal velocity and not of pulling power of bowmen.

They could have a 'orbital bombardment' option at the start of the game (whilst praying). Whilst the knights are praying the sensible peasants take the opportunity to fire off a volley of arrows.

Another would be the addition of a 'catapult' and 'greek fire' unit. Both used in medieval warfare.

Or, war dogs.

I do think the Paladin and Damsel are a little overpriced too.

manoknok wrote:I also think Bowmen are underpowered - the Longbow was a devastating weapon and could go through plate armour pretty easily (depending upon the head). So, a S4 for that would make up for week humans elsewhere. Bear in mind the strength of the weapon comes from terminal velocity and not of pulling power of bowmen.

That may be true but then Wood Elves start to lose their uniqueness. Plus 6 points for longbowmen isnt a bad deal, and if they were S4 then Crossbows also start to lose out.

Hmm maybe take some ideas from WAB though? Longbows in WAB are S3 but have a -1 armor save modifier (so armor piercing) at short range

Yes, that would work as well. At the moment I am struggling to deal with armour saves....

Why not devestating charge and maybe ASF on the charge? I however like the peasents, theyre cheap dirty fodder, and really fits with the grimdark fantasy knights.

Hmm yes Devastating Charge almost looks like it was meant for Cavalry. Maybe ASF on charge too I suppose, lances are longer than most weapons except for spears, pikes, and other long pole arm weapons. It is a tad annoying when some knights cant inflict a single hit before folding over to some I4-5 attacks. Especially S5 Chaos Warriors

In my little experience with Brettonia, the knights don't need too much help on the charge, and I don't think that charge specific rules would really fix anything.
I added the +1 str to put the knights on par with the other Calvary hammers of the game (dark elves and empire and woodelves are all 'human strength" races get str 4 Calvary with lances, as well as lizards and chaos and beastmen)... Didn't seem like a huge stretch. This makes them better than slaves if they get charged/don't break a unit on the first charge.
The T4 on the questing knights/grail knights is once again to put them on par with their "inner circle" empire equivalents... IMO questing knights should have a bit more grit to them, and grailknights should be roughly equal to a chaos knight. Which is where most of that balancing came from.
Lastly almost all races have access to some sort of hero that has better stats than his contemporaries, dwarfs/orcs/skaven(!? Lol) get 5 T; vamps/tombkings/lizards/ogres/beastmen/demons/warriors have access to lords with both S5/T5.
S5 would make a cool little niche for martial brettonia to fit into IMO.
@Grey: you are insanely opinionated. And I see that you have posted almost 14,000 (fourteen THOUSAND) times in the 2 and a half years you have been on the forum. Averaging 15 posts a day is no easy task over that span of time, and I'm sure you have lots of good ideas... I am just not into them because none that I have seen are particularly thought out or warrented.
Edit to correct autocorrect

Opinionated?

This is a forum, and Proposed Rules. You are asking for people's opinions by posting in this section. The fact you bothered to calculate my post ratio is just sad, there are better things to do then come up with cheap shots like that. I think Brettonia needs improving too, just not in the way you suggested.

Your proposed rules don't make sense from a fluff perspective. Your alterations have taken these normal humans into super human/monster territory.

The Grail Knights have Str4 because they have been blessed by the Lady. I could concede maybe giving them T4 as well, but certaintly NOT giving it to Questing Knights(who are just looking for the Grail, nothing special has happened yet)

Knights of the Realm should get no statline changes because they are just normal humans. Any buffs they get should come from additional equipment options, like my suggested Morning Star or Mace.


as for why other "human" cavelry gets Str4.

Inner Circle Knights: Inner Circle Knights change from Core to Special first off so they arn't in the same catagory from a game mechanic perspective. Inner Circle Knights have undergone some sort of baroque ritual or something, the knightly orders are practically secret societies. Some order ritual has given them this str boost. This puts their buff in the same catagory as Grail Knights. And Empire Inner Circle knights are not T4, only Str4.

Wood Elves: You refer to Wildriders. They are Elves who have been overcome by the Wild Hunt and have been imbued with supernatural powers.

Dark Elves: Cold One Knights. These are Dark Elves and exceptionally strong individuals at that. They have to be to control their Cold Ones. The Cold Ones themselves secret toxins that slowely inocculate their rider, thus increasing his resistance and thus his strength.

Give men at arms an option for just hand weapon and shield.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Give men at arms an option for just hand weapon and shield.

-Matt

I can easily see that happening. Mainly because it is a bit of a stupid 8th rule shenanigan that hand weapons are immediately replaced *cough Lizardmen Templeguard*

@Grey: I bring up your post count to draw focus to your Diarrhea of the Mouth, as we call it in Texas. I'm sorry if it seemed sad, to me it was simple mental math (2.5years*350days is a bit under a grand, and 14000 divided by a bit under a grand is 15. But more to the point, I wonder if you put any thought into your posts, or just shoot from the hip with whatever pops into your head. Let me give you a detailed example:

Knights of the Realm:
We both agree that although they preform well on the charge, they need a boost elsewhere.
My Proposition: +1 S
Your counter proposal: Morningstars (+1S in first round) or Maces (rules don't exist)

Your proposal has a single positive effect, it gives the EXACT same bonus that my proposition does on a turn that the knights are charged. In EVERY other situation you are having no effect (still str 3 in subsequent rounds) or makes them worse (drop from str 5 to str 4 on the charge). So you are not actually improving the KotR in any way, except to give them what I proposed. Your justification is that the fictional god that the cheese-eaters believe in is somehow inferior to the fictional humans across the border because, and I wanna quote so I don't misrepresent you, "Inner Circle Knights have undergone some sort of baroque ritual or something."

This makes it seem like you just wanna argue. And I have been witness to many other threads where you displayed the same tendencies.

You claim that KotR should remain weaker than Inner circle and the others because they are core instead of special, and then 180 and Adamantly argue that grail knights (the only rare Calvary in the game that I am aware of) should be weaker or on par with the Special choice calvary of the rest of the world.

Those are contradicting viewpoints. Again it seems you began to argue and got so carried away that you didn't even know what constructive point you were trying to make.
Assuming their was one at all.

Now to me, Hero level characters (and especially Lords) should have slightly better stats than their contemporaries. Since Grail Knights would be 4S/4T under the new proposal I wanted to give the heros a small boost: chaos fighty heros are 5S/4T, which seemed like a good template for a bonus. Brets are known for stabbing things to death in combat, and the extra str would make the lord a bit more feared by the large baddies he will inevitably end up fighting.

How about this:

KOTR get +1 strength if they pray (part of the blessing). If they lose the prayer they also lose the +1 strength bonus.

Kiwidru wrote:(the only rare Calvary in the game that I am aware of)

Dont forget Blood Knights

Although I'm not sure if S5 for a human lord fits. I think humans are more comparable to Elves or Dwarves who are capped normally at S4 than Chaos Warriors or Lizardmen. The praying idea from Duke is intriguing though