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For a 1st Founding original Chapter with a Primarch and everything, Iron hands get a bum deal, I will articulate my argument:-

1. GW One Measly boxed set of a tactical squad with options for a sgt that no Codex supports (Tactical squad Sgt with a Thunderhammer?)
2. Not one Iron Hands reference (save a short one sentence) in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines.
3. No Special Characters in 5th Ed Codex Space Marines, nor any special rules.
4. Horus Heresy Novel Series no Iron Hands book (Dark Angels have several awful ones, Sons of Horus have several too) Fulgrim has some interesting references and passages about his and Ferrus relationship.
5. One lousy book in the Black Library about a 2 dimensional character (Iron Father Gdolkin) that likes to make conclusions based on conjecture.
6. On Forgeworld no Iron Hands special pieces (some nice doors for Rhino's and Land raiders and nice decals), no terminator Pauldrons (I would like to point out that Red Scorpions and Astral Claws have a fair bit? Who are these young usurpers, oh FW's own fluffy stuff)

I have to be honest GW is partially to blame with the name. Too many players (and Matt Ward) get confused between Iron Hands and Iron Warriors, and get Perturabo / Ferrus confused. But seriously, I wouldn't mind if they were second founding or whatever but these guys are one of the original hardcore Legions. Number 10 of 20 (or should that be 18?). Are they just another piece of fluff that will be eventually written out of 40k Canon because not many players like them? (I hope not).

mwnciboo wrote:For a 1st Founding original Chapter with a Primarch and everything, Iron hands get a bum deal, I will articulate my argument:-

1. GW One Measly boxed set of a tactical squad with options for a sgt that no Codex supports (Tactical squad Sgt with a Thunderhammer?)

When the Iron Hands box was released, it was an option.

2. Not one Iron Hands reference (save a short one sentence) in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines.
3. No Special Characters in 5th Ed Codex Space Marines, nor any special rules.

This isn't exclusive to the Iron Hands. There's quite a few Chapters which get no "love" and are far, far more interesting/worthy than the Iron Hands.

The only reason people seem to get sore is because Iron Hands are a "Founding Legion". That doesn't necessarily mean they have enough to really flesh them out. What's special about the Iron Hands? Bionics and Techmarines.

That's oversimplifying it, certainly, but let's face it. The Iron Hands just aren't incredibly interesting as they stand now.

4. Horus Heresy Novel Series no Iron Hands book (Dark Angels have several awful ones, Sons of Horus have several too) Fulgrim has some interesting references and passages about his and Ferrus relationship.

You're aware that the Iron Hands are slated to get one yeah?

The problem is that the Horus Heresy novels are written by authors about Legions/subjects that interest them. The Iron Hands are very one-dimensional from what we have on them currently.

5. One lousy book in the Black Library about a 2 dimensional character (Iron Father Gdolkin) that likes to make conclusions based on conjecture.

See what I mean?

6. On Forgeworld no Iron Hands special pieces (some nice doors for Rhino's and Land raiders and nice decals), no terminator Pauldrons (I would like to point out that Red Scorpions and Astral Claws have a fair bit? Who are these young usurpers, oh FW's own fluffy stuff)

Er what?

Red Scorpions and the Astral Claws both existed before FW chose to focus upon them.

In regards to them having "no Terminator Pauldrons":
FW tends towards releasing models when they actually have the Chapters/Regiments/Whatever in question as a "focus" for an IA book. The Astral Claws and Red Scorpion stuff wasn't just released by itself.

The Red Scorpion stuff first showed up when they were spotlighted in The Anphelion Project. The range was then fleshed out from The Siege of Vraks and the Badab War.

I have to be honest GW is partially to blame with the name too many players get confused between Iron Hands and Iron Warriors, and get Perturabo / Ferrus confused. But seriously, I wouldn't mind if they were second founding or whatever but these guys are one of the original hardcore Legions. Number 10 of 20 (or should that be 18?). Are they just another piece of fluff that will be eventually written out of 40k Canon because not many players like them? (I hope not).

If you think that they will be "written out of 40k canon because not many players like them", I don't know what to tell you.

The problem, quite simply, is that they're very boring. What are they remembered for?
"The Flesh is Weak".

They might as well be robots for all the interest they hold to me. They're the Adeptus Mechanicus in Astartes form.

Still think that the best thing that could happen for Iron Hands fans, would be an AdMech book, that had them as allies.

Basically like the old Witch Hunters book, loads of weird techy goodness, with the ability to take either a focused Admech force, Iron Hands or mixture of them both.

To be done right they need access to tech that other Marine chapters either have no interest in, or the capability to use. This merger with Admech would finally give the Iron Hands a codex to work from.

From GW's point of view it provides less of a risk than releasing Admech on its own, as, well its more Marines, Marines with Bionics out the ying yang.

@Kanluwen, I think Dan Abnett would be able to spin a decent tale out of the Iron Hands. The mysterious nature of the AdMech means that he would have a fair degree of latitude to re-invent/ write and create a decent Iron Hands setup and it's back story. The Iron Hands in many respects are non-codex anyway (lack of Chapter master, no 10th Company, no 1st Company) they would benefit for a Black Templar type make over. I think the ADMECH and IH codex would be an interesting option.

Things in their Favour,

1. Access to lots of Rare Tech
2. The closest Chapter to the AdMech (Maybe Praetors of Orpheus a close second).
3. Very established, 1st founding
4. Pathological hatred for any kind of weakness (Black Templars & Inquisitors would love these guys).

I do re-iterate that every Loyalist Legion has a Character in 5th Edition over the Iron Hands.

Except they don't have access to tech that other Marine Chapters have no interest in or a capability to use, etc.


There's just nothing "interesting" to someone like myself about them. They have kinda/sorta close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus and had a civil war within the Chapter when the Mechanicus had a civil war going on. The Iron Hands don't even have that many Successor Chapters(4) to justify a book of "Iron Hands and Friends".

That's my opinion of course, and should not be taken as "THIS IS HOW IT IS SO DEAL WITH IT!" or "This is bad and you should feel bad!". There's just not that much interesting, to me, about them. They're like the Oldcrons--very bland and one dimensional.

Okay, i take your point. I would counter it by saying too many of the SM Armies are too similar and the Close Combat Orientated armies (BA, DA, BT, SW) seem to dominate, it would be nice to see IH's as a Shooty Gunline type army with lots of Wargear and shooting abilities. The SW's and BA have some stupidly cheap HW's and the BA with Fast Vehicles & lots of FNP, Deathwing and Ravenwing for DA (Why the Ravenwing went to the Dark Angels to hunt the Fallen? Why not call them something else, Ravenwing would have been great for Ravenguard or a similar concept for White Scars?). The 1st Legion has almost too much going on, as do the Space Puppies, every Codex they seem to expand.

Yeah...except that's not how they are.

The Iron Hands are depicted as "implacable" and advancing across the field, laying down gunfire before crushing the enemy in CC.

Dark Angels have pretty much always been the "shooty gunline type army". The only reason you think they're CC oriented is because of how stupidly effective TH/SS Deathwing are.

Well i'm not writing the Codex, but Iron Hands should get Relentless. In return no Terminators, except for Sgt's in Tac Squads and they then forgo their Rhino's.

Anyway it is interesting to hear your opinions on why they are being ignored. It just chaffe's to hear alot of people cannot see any merit in them.

It's not reaaaaaaaaaaaallly an opinion in regards to the Forge World bits.

I've asked them myself why they had no love aside from some doors and a transfer sheet. Main reason, simply put, is that the Iron Hands tend to be very "boring" to use as protagonists.

Yeah, to be fair the idea I noted above, would require a bit of re-imagining for the Iron Hands.

Although, if you think about it, its not like we had Thunderwolf riding Space Wolves last edition either.

I've seen people confuse Iron Hands for Imperial Fists too. Similar imagery I guess.
Ferrus was a really unique Primarch and its sad they spend so little time on him in the HH series. The Fulgrim/Ferrus story is pretty good but thats all of it. He had liquid metal hands! Why don't we get more about the hands?
As far as special rules: With their 'extensive augmentation and close ties to the AdMech' I would think that they could have an Inv Sv like a cybork, or digital weapons or something. Make it a selectable upgrade like the BT's vows.
That IH tac squad is pretty awesome looking, too bad its so expensive. I've thought about buying it to use for veteran sergeant conversions, the bio-mechanical legs and heads are sweet. Didn't know it came w/ thunder hammer, that's funny.
I feel like I know your pain, but not quite as bad. The IF get Lysander... and that's it. Dorn at least has some respectable mentions. People call us boring too though. I think 'boring' is better than 'Mat Ward Ultramarine'. Try to think of it as yet to be written, I guess. We're First Founding! They can't ditch us! ...right?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Although, if you think about it, its not like we had Thunderwolf riding Space Wolves last edition either.

To be entirely fair:

While I loathe the Thunderwolf Cavalry, it does kinda fit with the Space Wolves. Thunderwolves did exist, albeit without the name, prior to the Space Wolf book by Phil Kelly. "Wolves as big as tanks" is something that Fenris has really always had.

No I agree, but what I was elduing to, is GW never has, and never will see their fluff/background as some sort of sacred untouchable vow.

Although we'd never expect to see the Chaos Gods change names, or the Emperor get up out of the throne.

The idea of having Irons hands suddenly having technical know how, or new equipment away from the norm of their brothers would not be a surprise.

I have noted there is an idea,one that has slipped through the cracks a number of times in GW writing, that their is something rotten somewhere in the chapter.

Perhaps rotten is the wrong word, but they aren't.. as focused on the codex as some of their other brethren. They certainly have some kind of agenda that is not 'normal' for Space marines.

@morathi I am inclined to agree with this, as if there is some dark secret in there. Unlike the DA who are quite happy to talk about their supposedly Dark Secret .

If IH's were popular I guess I would see more of them.

@Scambone, I feel a little bit of the Son's of Dorn pain but actually you could have your own Codex, between the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black Templars they are all sons of Dorn. So you could instead of Lysander (One of the hardest SM characters ever) you could equally proxy Pedro Kantor (Another top draw character). I would like to see at least 2 Characters for all the 1st Founding Legions, and maybe 1 for a select few Chapters.

Iron Hands terminators should be present. They don't so much have terminator honours, it's more like getting a better body.

I could see Iron Hands/Sons of Medusa being a good codex option, they could even release it at the same time as a Mechanicus codex.

In saying that a forge world book that included Mechanicus, Iron Hands/Sons of Medusa and Rogue Mechanicus/Dark Mechanicus Elements would be an instant purchase.

They could flesh out the Moirae Schism and present a Dark Mechanicus situation in which the Iron hands/SoM/Mechanicus have to purge them from x, y and z.

As for Iron Hands currently?

Space Wolves can represent them quite well. Logan with Wolf Guard troops. Focus on shooting. Give the 5th Wolf Guard terminator armour and a heavy weapon. Boom!

Plague Marines also work.

I actually think 4th Edition BT books works quite well for IH's, 2 wound Techmarines with TDA and SS (Holy orb of antioch anyone?).

at least they have a squad set. Thats more then many other chapters can say.

I would trade you that Box Set for an Iron Father with some nice special rules..

True enough.

I want my Chapter Traits back

Sure, there isn't anything recent, but if you played during 3rd edition, you could field an Iron Hands army from rules from the Index Astartes article section of White Dwarf, and from the book Index Astartes III from 2003.

They had a unique list of what entries could be taken, unique wargear (bionics special rules(half-price) and the Mechanicus Protectiva(Rosarius) for the Iron Father), and could take a unique HQ choice, the Iron-Father. They didn't have access to Termi units, but Vet Sergeants could take Terminator armor as wargear. They were also one of the first armies to get Venerable Dreadnoughts if I remember right, and could take 0-1 as an HQ choices.

That's where the Iron hands models are from.

Like it's been said before, Space Wolves without the newest "Wolfy" stuff could make Iron Hands quite well. A Space Marine Iron Priest is just a Iron father bumped down from HQ to an Elites slot.

Pfft, squad set? Look at the space wolves stuff, the blood angels items, the dark angels upgrade spure, black templar stuffs. Iron hands have a single box of tactical marines with some metal bits.

I feel the iron hand should have the slow and purposeful rule as a whole, and they should be limited to 0-1 terminators in the whole army.

The iron hands are pretty damn ignored, but then so are the chaos legions.

Out of all the original loyal chapters, the iron hands have nothing right now game-wise.

The Ironhands got a page or so of how they purged an entire star system, and killed well over 1/3rd of the systems population.

They also used to have an Iron Father model.

Meh, easy enough to do with a Techmarine model.

Crazyterran wrote:The Ironhands got a page or so of how they purged an entire star system, and killed well over 1/3rd of the systems population.

Yeah maybe not their finest hour I have to say if there was a break from SM's for a few years would do GW good they could focus on other races or even the Chaos Space Marines? Would be nice to see some new noise marines, or Iron Warrior models. As they are no doubt working on 6th Edition Codex Space Marines I hoping if enough of us talk long enough about it maybe we will see a bit more character in the New Space Marine Codex.

"Masters of the Forge" were actually intended to be an Iron Hands character/shoutout.

Just so y'know.

if the rumors about the 6th edition boxed set are true that thats what will happen.

its rumored to be Dark Angels and Chaos marines

I think it's part of their character, the Iron Hands are probably the most ruthless loyalist chapter.

Here's the quote.

in the retaking of the Contqual Subsector, one third of the population was summarily executed after a successful campaign simply to demonstrate the price of weakness

I think a Mechanicus list with an Option to take Iron Hands/Sons of Medusa as Elites/HQ might be nice. The same way that the FW renegades and heretics work for CSM, or similarly at least.

GW should go back to doing these one off army lists and putting them all in one book at the end of a year/two years. Would keep (some) people happy.

I do like that idea of them being an Elite choice for the Ad Mech. or maybe an Elite choice that becomes a Troops choice if you run an Iron Father.

Medium of Death wrote:I think it's part of their character, the Iron Hands are probably the most ruthless loyalist chapter.

Here's the quote.

in the retaking of the Contqual Subsector, one third of the population was summarily executed after a successful campaign simply to demonstrate the price of weakness

I think a Mechanicus list with an Option to take Iron Hands/Sons of Medusa as Elites/HQ might be nice. The same way that the FW renegades and heretics work for CSM, or similarly at least.

GW should go back to doing these one off army lists and putting them all in one book at the end of a year/two years. Would keep (some) people happy.

It's interesting to hear you say that because playing Flames of War (FOW) Battlefront do these One off codex lists for free on their website (calling them Intel briefs) they are all tournament legal and above board, they release 1 every 2 weeks or so. It would be interesting if GW followed their models.