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Simple question, which i am sure will stir up a big debate. I myself have always played If you Shoot at a skimmer that has gone flat out, and it is immobilized, that skimmer and guys inside are destroyed. It was brought to my attention that because of some of the wording of "Players turn" and such that the guys don't die when i shoot it, but they can get out of the vehicle that is already wrecked on the owning players turn. Can anyone clarify this Or the the way i have been playing it rock solid rules wise. Have a tourney coming up and i just want all avenues covered.

This one is pretty straightforward. The squad is only destroyed if it is wrecked in the player turn in which it went Flat Out. That pretty much only leaves failed terrain tests, ramming or Death or Glory.

Otherwise the passengers can hop out.

It is still destroyed by an immobilized result in either players turn.

If a Skimmer is immobilized after going flat out during it's previous movement phase, it is destroyed. Occupants cannot exit a vehicle that has gone flat out this player turn.

So, if an opposing skimmer moves flat out on your opponent's turn and then you immobilize it during your turn, it is destroyed. However, occupants are only killed if the vehicle is destroyed during the same player turn through dangerous terrain, ramming, death or glory, scattering blast weapons, or things like that.

If on the player turn it moved flat out it is destroyed(moved flat out into terrain and got immobilized, gets hit by friendly fire) all of the models on board the transport die, for one game turn it will be wrecked on an immobilized result but the troops on board can disembark safely.

It pretty much requires the owning player to wreck it on their player turn for the models inside the transport to die.

Thank you very much guys, i appreciate the fast response.

FYI, it's no longer the entire player turn in which it moved flat out, since they corrected the FAQ to reflect what the rulebook actually says. It only happens during the actual movement phase in which it moves flat out.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

don_mondo wrote:FYI, it's no longer the entire player turn in which it moved flat out, since they corrected the FAQ to reflect what the rulebook actually says. It only happens during the actual movement phase in which it moves flat out.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

That doesn't mean it's not the entire player turn

jgehunter wrote:

don_mondo wrote:FYI, it's no longer the entire player turn in which it moved flat out, since they corrected the FAQ to reflect what the rulebook actually says. It only happens during the actual movement phase in which it moves flat out.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

That doesn't mean it's not the entire player turn

Um.
Yes it does. If you move flat out and get a template scattered on to you that immobilizes/wrecks the vehicle, you're no longer in the Movement phase anymore, so would be able to disembark.

rigeld2 wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

don_mondo wrote:FYI, it's no longer the entire player turn in which it moved flat out, since they corrected the FAQ to reflect what the rulebook actually says. It only happens during the actual movement phase in which it moves flat out.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase It doesn't ask if the vehicle is destroyed in any other phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

That doesn't mean it's not the entire player turn

Um.
Yes it does. If you move flat out and get a template scattered on to you that immobilizes/wrecks the vehicle, you're no longer in the Movement phase anymore, so would be able to disembark.

I don't actually have the BRB on me so this is just supposing that what it says there is "the models are removed from play if the vehicle went flat out on that turn"

Yep. Doesn't treat friendly-fire destruction at all.

jgehunter wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

don_mondo wrote:FYI, it's no longer the entire player turn in which it moved flat out, since they corrected the FAQ to reflect what the rulebook actually says. It only happens during the actual movement phase in which it moves flat out.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase It doesn't ask if the vehicle is destroyed in any other phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

That doesn't mean it's not the entire player turn

Um.
Yes it does. If you move flat out and get a template scattered on to you that immobilizes/wrecks the vehicle, you're no longer in the Movement phase anymore, so would be able to disembark.

I don't actually have the BRB on me so this is just supposing that what it says there is "the models are removed from play if the vehicle went flat out on that turn"

So to be clear what I mean is, the faq asks what happened when the vehicle is destroyed on the Movement Phase, it doesn't say anything else, so on the other phases this faq would not change how they work.

Yes, the FaQ specifically addresses that movement phase.

You follow the normal rules in the BRB for your fast transport skimmer that moved flat out in the shooting and assault phases of that turn.

But remember that moving flat out prohibits embarked models from disembarking if the transport has moved flat out in that movement phase, so a stray Blast marker that destroys the transport still kills all of the embarked passengers.

DeathReaper wrote:Yes, the FaQ specifically addresses that movement phase.

You follow the normal rules in the BRB for your fast transport skimmer that moved flat out in the shooting and assault phases of that turn.

But remember that moving flat out prohibits embarked models from disembarking if the transport has moved flat out in that movement phase, so a stray Blast marker that destroys the transport still kills all of the embarked passengers.

so they changed it from "turn" to "Movement Phase" to ... make it *less* clear?

Yep. That doesn't necessarily mean passengers are dead, either - just again, that FAQ doesn't treat subsequent phases.

Randall Turner wrote:Yep. That doesn't necessarily mean passengers are dead, either - just again, that FAQ doesn't treat subsequent phases.

^^

Exactly

Randall Turner wrote:Yep. That doesn't necessarily mean passengers are dead, either - just again, that FAQ doesn't treat subsequent phases.

The FaQ doesn't, but the prohibition on disembarking is still in place, so if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase, models may not disembark.

That movement phase, can only refer to the movement phase of the current turn.

DeathReaper wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:Yep. That doesn't necessarily mean passengers are dead, either - just again, that FAQ doesn't treat subsequent phases.

The FaQ doesn't, but the prohibition on disembarking is still in place, so if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase, models may not disembark.

That movement phase, can only refer to the movement phase of the current turn.

^^

Of course this is also true, I was trying to answer to someone that stated that the faq meant they don't die either

rigeld2 wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

don_mondo wrote:FYI, it's no longer the entire player turn in which it moved flat out, since they corrected the FAQ to reflect what the rulebook actually says. It only happens during the actual movement phase in which it moves flat out.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

That doesn't mean it's not the entire player turn

Um.
Yes it does. If you move flat out and get a template scattered on to you that immobilizes/wrecks the vehicle, you're no longer in the Movement phase anymore, so would be able to disembark.

A question about a certain circumstance does not negate any other circumstance(even though this particular question was changed from player turn to "movement phase").

The FAQ in the instance does not change the core rules per the BRB(BRB Pg 70, Fast vehicles, Fast transport vehicles): "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out that movement phase."

So your Flat out moving Transport Skimmer is immobilized or destroyed from friendly fire this turn; you now have models on board that may not disembark.

Now we have to find out what we do when models canot disembark from a vehecle that they are forced to disembark from(since the vehicle is now destroyed), for that we look again to the BRB(page 67, Effects of damage results on passengers, Destroyed-wrecked) "The Passengers must immediately disembark and then take a pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed."

So we have the rules telling us what happens to Passengers when the vehicle is destroyed(must disembark), and we have a rule that tells what happens to passengers when a vehicle moves flat out(cannot disembark), and we even have a rule that states what happens when Passengers must disembark but cannot(models are destroyed).

Just because the FAQ asks about what happens to a transport moving flat out and getting wrecked in that movement phase, does not preclude the rest of the very clear rules from functioning.

Let me put it this way: I have 3 different cookies on my table(Peanut butter, chocolate chip, and Oatmeal raisin); I tell my son he cannot have any cookies until after dinner, and if he sneaks one it is 5 min in the corner then bed. My son then asks if he can have a chocolate chip cookie(this is in no way a fictitious story so far), to whit I tell him "no". This does not mean that the Peanut butter or the Oatmeal cookies are now fair game since the original denial of any cookies is still in effect.

Hmm. I didn't want to commit past the cookie-example "specific limitation doesn't invalidate general limitation" b/c of the BRB wording on disembarking, ie...

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.pp.70

could be parsed as equivalent to:
Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle [in that movement phase] if ithas moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

instead of:
Passengers may not embark into or disembark from a fast vehicle [in that player turn] if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

The implied "player turn" isn't obvious to me.

Okies... Im not English so I prob never reads the rules the right way...

But seriously.. 40k cant be played as a RTS, but turnwise, but still everything happends at the same time.

If a veichle moves flat out it gets an invl save against shooting for one full turn as it goes fast as hell that turn, but you meen that the skimmer only goes that fast that movement turn, and then sits still until the next turn? But still get that invul save as it goes fast as hell! Well, it did go fast as hell 5 mins ago, so it should still get that save!!!!

1+1=2... If you get the invul save rule until your next movement phase, why dont you get the "people inside the skimmer cant disembark" during the same timeframe?

Lakhota wrote:Okies... Im not English so I prob never reads the rules the right way...

But seriously.. 40k cant be played as a RTS, but turnwise, but still everything happends at the same time.

If a veichle moves flat out it gets an invl save against shooting for one full turn as it goes fast as hell that turn, but you meen that the skimmer only goes that fast that movement turn, and then sits still until the next turn? But still get that invul save as it goes fast as hell! Well, it did go fast as hell 5 mins ago, so it should still get that save!!!!

1+1=2... If you get the invul save rule until your next movement phase, why dont you get the "people inside the skimmer cant disembark" during the same timeframe?

Because the rules don't say that.

rigeld2 wrote:

Lakhota wrote:Okies... Im not English so I prob never reads the rules the right way...

But seriously.. 40k cant be played as a RTS, but turnwise, but still everything happends at the same time.

If a veichle moves flat out it gets an invl save against shooting for one full turn as it goes fast as hell that turn, but you meen that the skimmer only goes that fast that movement turn, and then sits still until the next turn? But still get that invul save as it goes fast as hell! Well, it did go fast as hell 5 mins ago, so it should still get that save!!!!

1+1=2... If you get the invul save rule until your next movement phase, why dont you get the "people inside the skimmer cant disembark" during the same timeframe?

Because the rules don't say that.

If that is what the rules say it means you can never disembark from a vehicle moving flat out

rigeld2 wrote:

Lakhota wrote:Okies... Im not English so I prob never reads the rules the right way...

But seriously.. 40k cant be played as a RTS, but turnwise, but still everything happends at the same time.

If a veichle moves flat out it gets an invl save against shooting for one full turn as it goes fast as hell that turn, but you meen that the skimmer only goes that fast that movement turn, and then sits still until the next turn? But still get that invul save as it goes fast as hell! Well, it did go fast as hell 5 mins ago, so it should still get that save!!!!

1+1=2... If you get the invul save rule until your next movement phase, why dont you get the "people inside the skimmer cant disembark" during the same timeframe?

Because the rules don't say that.

True, and the rules never state that you should use your brain when you read the rules.. Sorry.. Forgot about that... =/

Lakhota wrote:Okies... Im not English so I prob never reads the rules the right way...

But seriously.. 40k cant be played as a RTS, but turnwise, but still everything happends at the same time.

If a veichle moves flat out it gets an invl save against shooting for one full turn as it goes fast as hell that turn, but you meen that the skimmer only goes that fast that movement turn, and then sits still until the next turn? But still get that invul save as it goes fast as hell! Well, it did go fast as hell 5 mins ago, so it should still get that save!!!!

1+1=2... If you get the invul save rule until your next movement phase, why dont you get the "people inside the skimmer cant disembark" during the same timeframe?

I think your English is fine. That seems like a reasonable interpretation to me. But it's still an interpretation, ie, if there's *no* time limit on "can't disembark" specified, how do we *know" it's per player-turn? Edit: though you're actually saying it's per game-turn ala invul save.

Kel knows the rules in general, often there's some tucked away guideline somewhere ala "turn == player turn unless otherwise specified".

Plus he evidently has cookies.

Lakhota wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Lakhota wrote:Okies... Im not English so I prob never reads the rules the right way...

But seriously.. 40k cant be played as a RTS, but turnwise, but still everything happends at the same time.

If a veichle moves flat out it gets an invl save against shooting for one full turn as it goes fast as hell that turn, but you meen that the skimmer only goes that fast that movement turn, and then sits still until the next turn? But still get that invul save as it goes fast as hell! Well, it did go fast as hell 5 mins ago, so it should still get that save!!!!

1+1=2... If you get the invul save rule until your next movement phase, why dont you get the "people inside the skimmer cant disembark" during the same timeframe?

Because the rules don't say that.

True, and the rules never state that you should use your brain when you read the rules.. Sorry.. Forgot about that... =/

Of COURSE Knights in Chess can't move over Rooks! How would a guy in armor on a horse leap over a castle? That's ridiculous. If you use your brain clearly Knights can't leap over Rooks.

Or alternately, Chess and 40k are both games whose rules are somewhat abstract and may not make intuitive sense at first glance, but in many cases are there for reasons of game balance or simplicity instead.

In some cases "common sense" is useful. ie, here the rules say you can't disembark, but don't say very much about duration.

Key line could be interpreted as: (adding his interpretation)

Passengers may not embark into or disembark from a fast vehicle [in that movement phase] if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.
Passengers may not embark into or disembark from a fast vehicle [in that player turn] if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.
Passengers may not embark into or disembark from a fast vehicle [until next movement phase] if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

The skimmer flat-out cover rules are similar in function, and do use the "has moved flat out in its last movement phase" qualifier. With ambiguous rule wording, a reasonable player could decide that as long as it's getting a cover save, it's still moving fast enough to wreck havok on passengers. I loved Kel's cookie-post, but the rules here aren't completely "clear".

I am so confused....

I belive IG get grav-chuts that let you get out if its gone flat out.

Randall Turner wrote:
could be parsed as equivalent to:
Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle [in that movement phase] if ithas moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

You cannot Parse the Sentence in this manner because it requires adding a second Clause to the initial premise; which both makes the sentence unreadable(well, ugly to read), and lacks the punctuation to allow such a parsing.

Parsing a sentence it analyzing the words contained therein, you cannot add to those words without the proper punctuation to constitute a list(either a standard, or an oxford, comma)

If the sentence were to read: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle [in the same movement phase that it has] moved (or is going to move) flat out."

You could attempt to move the "in that movement phase" clause from the end of the sentence to the juncture you placed it but that chanes the meaning to all any movement of flat out: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle in that movement phase if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out." but of course that denies any embarking/disembarking if you ever move, or are ever going to move, flat out.

The rule in the BRB must be denying any embarkation, or disembarkation, for the entirety of the player turn that contains the Movement phase wherein the fast vehicle has moved flat out; there really is no other way to read that rule.

kinratha wrote:I belive IG get grav-chuts that let you get out if its gone flat out.

Doesn't work; vehicle special rules don't work if the vehicle is destroyed (Rulebook FAQ, p5). Once the Valk/Vend fails its dangerous terrain test, it is destroyed and the unit no longer has a means to disembark so is destroyed as well.