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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 17:36:34
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Courageous Grand Master
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The Great British garage sale continues. Please note this article contains criticism of the USA and those of a right-wing leaning
From today's guardian newspaper:
Welcome, once again, to the great British garage sale. What with the outsourcing of the police now a serious prospect, and the deeply strange spectacle of Richard Branson bidding for NHS work, today's announcement from David Cameron about selling off our roads is one of those things which is simultaneously shocking, and no great surprise.
In fact, this particular wheeze has been on the agenda since the time of George Osborne's last autumn statement, when the chancellor talked up the government's "national infrastructure plan": proposals for 500 projects that would be funded by private sources to the tune of £20bn. Pension funds were the focus of most of the resulting news coverage, but there was also a big projected role for sovereign wealth funds, those ever-growing interests that represent one of the 21st century's strangest quirks: the fact that nationalisation is back with a vengeance, but it tends to involve assets in the supposedly free-market west being bought up by foreign governments.
Cameron's speech today, then, represents one of those occasions when the government announces something it has actually announced already, as proved by a Financial Times story from November last year. "'For sale' sign goes up over UK infrastructure projects" was the headline, and the opening paragraph ran thus: "George Osborne will next week hang a 'for sale' sign over British infrastructure projects worth tens of billions of pounds, as he attempts to tempt UK pension funds, oil-rich Gulf states and other sovereign wealth funds to pay for new roads, railways, housing and other projects." There was a brief flurry of comment (from me, among other people), but the issue duly quietened down, while ministers and civil servants got on with making the plans a reality.
George Osborne has been to China to push the proposals; as the FT piece reported, the treasury minister Lord Sassoon has been to the Gulf, where he discovered a "huge appetite" for investment in British infrastructure. While there, he also underlined the watershed nature of what was being proposed, by harking back to the glory days of the Thatcher and Major years. "As an asset class," he said, "UK infrastructure is generating about as much interest as there was with the privatisation programme of the 1980s and 1990s."
I bet it is. Whatever this move represents, it has nothing to do with capitalism: it's all about trading years-long monopoly contracts for a short-term fillip to the Treasury, with the hope that while extracting a profit, our roads' new owners will somehow improve and expand them (they might, but surely on terms akin to the eyewatering arrangements of PFI deals). The government claims that tolls will only be charged by roads' new owners for new capacity, but that sounds distinctly like one of those weedy assurances given by politicians that, once yesterday's lunacy has become today's accepted practice, is swiftly forgotten (to these ears, it has a similar ring to all those early New Labour claims about strict limits on private involvement in the NHS, or what the likes of Nick Clegg have said about profit-making schools).
The whole wheeze points in only one direction, as evidenced by a 2007 piece in Time magazine about American road privatisation: "Tolls often skyrocket under private owners, though with the blessing of elected officials, who avoid the political costs of raising tolls or taxes themselves. That's how privatised roads deliver double-digit returns for investors."
More generally, all this highlights things that the political class is too sold on neoliberalism to acknowledge. It may be hopelessly old-fashioned to point it out, but there is such a thing as a national economy. In that sense, it's right to make a distinction between assets and businesses that may suit being traded for speculative purposes, and ones so central to our national wellbeing that they ought to be left well alone (water privatisation is apparently the government's ideal model – doesn't that make you feel better?). While we're here, you might also like to ponder on how you'll feel about your vehicle excise duty and/or tolls going to some of the most oppressive regimes in the world.
Some of the best writing on these issues has come from Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone magazine, whose 2010 book Griftopia contains a sobering section about exactly the kind of plan the prime minister is now proposing, and its history in the US. Taibbi makes mention of no end of infrastructure already flogged off, and the cynical reasons for doing so: "A toll highway in Indiana. The Chicago Skyway. A stretch of highway in Florida. Parking meters in Nashville, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, and other cities. A port in Virginia. And a whole bevy of Californian public infrastructure projects, all either already leased or set to be leased for 50 or 75 years or more in exchange for one-off lump sum payments of a few billion bucks at best, usually just to help patch a hole or two in a single budget year."
But he also zeroes in on why all this is bad news for millions of Americans, in a passage that focuses on the Pennsylvania turnpike, almost sold by governor Ed Rendell after a bidding war that included the Spanish corporation Abertis and Goldman Sachs.
Taibbi quotes a friend who worked for a Gulf-region sovereign wealth fund, apparently offered a stake in the turnpike by American investment bankers, and also makes reference to a small Pennsylvanian businessman called Robert Lukens. He points up that the latter's trade is already declining "thanks to soaring oil prices that have been jacked up by a handful of banks". He highlights the fact that rising petrol prices mean that even more of Lukens's money is going into "the pockets of Middle Eastern oil companies". At the same time, his suffering business means that he's paying less tax, with the result that cash-strapped state governments are now selling off toll roads, parking meters and ports, often to those self-same oil-rich states.
Taibbi concludes thus: "It's an almost frictionless machine for stripping wealth out of the heart of the country, one that perfectly encapsulates where we are as a nation." Here, as in America, it certainly does.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 17:40:04
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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I do not like this idea...
I don't trust private companies...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 17:40:54
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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The Guardian, Jesus wept.
Its like the Daily Mail for Graphic Designers.
The last government ran for 13 years, the roads were all gak anyway, and they very nearly bankrupted the country.
feth it, I say let Dave go nuts. How much worse can it get?
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 17:42:29
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
skulking around the internet
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mattyrm wrote: . How much worse can it get?
Questions you shouldn't ask #1.
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It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and erase all doubt.
4000pts Steel Talons |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 17:53:35
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Courageous Grand Master
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If it's not nailed down, they'll sell it. To be fair the rot started with new labour. The fact that the roads, police, rail and utilities are all up for sale speaks volumes about British leadership. All parties have ran out of ideas and confidence.
If you think about, government authority boils down to having armed men ready to protect the state. The fact that they are considering selling off chunks of the police speaks volumes. As for the roads, well the M25 is beyond help!!
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 17:56:27
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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New Labour was a mistake...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 18:14:06
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If it's not nailed down, they'll sell it. To be fair the rot started with new labour. The fact that the roads, police, rail and utilities are all up for sale speaks volumes about British leadership. All parties have ran out of ideas and confidence.
If you think about, government authority boils down to having armed men ready to protect the state. The fact that they are considering selling off chunks of the police speaks volumes. As for the roads, well the M25 is beyond help!!
Honestly mate, Since leaving the corps I started working for my local city council...
The waste, and ineptitude of the Public Sector in this country utterly utterly staggers me.
Going from the Royal Marines to the civvie sector stunned me. I went from working with the best blokes in the country to some of the laziest sacks of gak in the world.
Teachers, Firemen, Policemen, Nurses, Local Government workers.. I've not a jot of respect for any of them. Firemen who wont rescue people due to health and safety, coppers that are on the sick all year, teachers who bang their students and dont get fired?!
Nobody can lose their job, nobody wants to work, and everyone wants popstar wages.
gak, if it was down to me, I would privatise absolutely everything!
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 18:18:08
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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mattyrm wrote:The waste, and ineptitude of the Public Sector in this country utterly utterly staggers me.
I see you've never worked in a large private company.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 18:33:47
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Privatizing everything is such a woefully stupid idea i don't even know where to begin...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 18:44:19
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Matty, have you ever looked at the price of trains in England nowadays? It's fething ridiculous. The private companies are fething gouging you lot.
Selling your roads is really, really fething dumb. They're literally priceless. As for privatising the police, yeah, I want my police force to be motivated entirely by profit. That'll fix things.
feth it. Let's privatise the armed forces. That's bound to improve things, right?
Get a grip Matty. Your experience in a local council (which I will happily believe was gak) doesn't make private companies the answer. It's better regulation and accountability that is the answer- in both private and public systems. But politicians won't go for that, for fear that they might be held accountable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 18:50:07
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Da Boss wrote:
feth it. Let's privatise the armed forces. That's bound to improve things, right?
If the US military should teach us anything, its that contracting out major components of defense doesn't really do much to control costs.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 18:52:37
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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To put it another way, right now any taxpayer owns a stake in those roads. Privatise it and it's all for another bunch of feths in suits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 20:34:32
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
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The next step after privatizing the roads, is to make them all toll roads, and get the government to pay me money to maintain it!
Well, that's what I would do if I was a company that bought a road.
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Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 20:53:29
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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dogma wrote:If the US military should teach us anything, its that contracting out major components of defense doesn't really do much to control costs.
This. I don't understand contracting. I mean, I get it on its face. The government saves money on all the back end costs of something by hiring someone to absorb those costs and do the job. But then, why is that my dad makes barely over six figures as a Colonel in the Army, and could have a seven figure salary doing the exact same thing for a private contractor (and he's had offers to such)? How on earth is that contractor being paid that much and saving the government money at the same time?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:01:07
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
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Hurrah, something in my field of expertise.
The uncomfortable truth is not so much that we need more roads, it's that we can't afford to maintain the existing ones.
Think you pay more than your fair share with Vehicle Excise Duty and Fuel Tax? Fraid not. This doen't even begin to cover the monumental UK road maintenance bill facing the government.
What we have here then is a proposal for private companies to lease the roads off the government and find a way to make money out of any improvements they see fit to make, whilst supposedly carrying out any required maintenance.
This is dumb for many reasons, but mostly because the purpose of any financial venture is to make money and avoid spending it.
Case in point - Railtrack who were of course the company PAID to maintain the rail network in the 1990s and did precisely no maintenance whatsoever. When trains started to crash, the company was just disbanded and a lot of red faced executives scurried away, their pockets bulging with bonuses.
So will the mass leasing of the UK road network result in a better roads? Probably not. Any better solutions out there? Not at the moment.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/03/19 21:08:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:11:04
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Seems like a stupid idea, same as privatising the NHS, taking away/reducing benefits for people who need them...
I understand the country is in some serious debt, as is nearly every other country. But how do all these 'money saving' polices effect the rich people? Are the MPs still as well off as they've ever been? All these companies and individuals who have ridiculous amounts of wealth, and they are the only ones who are going to benefit really aren't they...
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DC:90-S+G++M--B++I+pW40k08+D++A++/eWD257R++t(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:15:48
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Courageous Grand Master
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I'd quite happily privatise the Royal Marines, but that's just my bias towards the paras!!
Like most people in the UK I wouldn't mind the high rail prices and road tax if we were getting a service to match it. We're not, what we're getting is one of the worst services in Europe for road and rail. Albatross will probably demand stats and figures to back this up, but I mean, come on
Privatisation has been a disaster for the UK. It's motivated by profit, the law says they must keep the shareholders happy with dividends etc. It all adds up to corners being cut, shoddy service, and in some cases, people being killed.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:17:59
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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Da Boss wrote:Matty, have you ever looked at the price of trains in England nowadays? It's fething ridiculous. The private companies are fething gouging you lot.
Selling your roads is really, really fething dumb. They're literally priceless. As for privatising the police, yeah, I want my police force to be motivated entirely by profit. That'll fix things.
feth it. Let's privatise the armed forces. That's bound to improve things, right?
Get a grip Matty. Your experience in a local council (which I will happily believe was gak) doesn't make private companies the answer. It's better regulation and accountability that is the answer- in both private and public systems. But politicians won't go for that, for fear that they might be held accountable.
Oh yeah I was being silly saying "feth it privatise everything" obviously. I am well aware what Blackwater was up to when I was in Iraq.
And when I was contracting I worked for Enron!
And the trains are a piss take obviously..
I think the sensible less black and white answer was "Privatising doesn't automatically mean bad" Automatically Appended Next Post: Flashman wrote:
So will the mass leasing of the UK road network result in a better roads? Probably not. Any better solutions out there? Not at the moment.
This is much better.. thanks Flash.
Seriously though my point was simply that when the word privitisation gets uttered, I dont think it should be an automatic response to go "Arrghh!!"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/19 21:19:46
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:21:08
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Courageous Grand Master
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Whenever I hear privatisation, I just want to reach for something to chuck at the TV.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:22:36
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Whenever I hear privatisation, I just want to reach for something to chuck at the TV.
There you go then, I don't think that's a smart thing to do. Surely things should be looked at on a case by case basis?
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:23:19
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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I don't instantly dislike privatisation but i do distrust it...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:25:21
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
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rodgers37 wrote:Seems like a stupid idea, same as privatising the NHS, taking away/reducing benefits for people who need them...
...How do all these 'money saving' polices effect the rich people? Are the MPs still as well off as they've ever been? All these companies and individuals who have ridiculous amounts of wealth, and they are the only ones who are going to benefit really aren't they...
Probably.
Privatisation is a sound idea in principal. A private company will want to make a profit and therefore has a greater incentive to carry out the process at a greatly reduced cost than if it had been done by the public sector.
However, it falls down when applied to the service sector as not only do they cut out all the waste, but also the quality of whatever was being provided. The phrase cutting corners is quite apt here.
The counter argument is that because private companies operate in a competitive environment, they are incentivised to provide a good service or their company will look bad. Well... most of these service contracts run for years and if you have an exclusive contract to provide a service for a period of time, then this isn't a true competitive environment. Furthermore, the company will operate under the assumption that they will lose the contract when it comes up for renewal (why invest in a service if you can't gurantee you're going to keep it?) and seek to maximise profits while they can.
mattyrm wrote:Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Whenever I hear privatisation, I just want to reach for something to chuck at the TV.
There you go then, I don't think that's a smart thing to do. Surely things should be looked at on a case by case basis?
Indeed, the privatisaton of urban bus services has generally worked fine (or at least no worse than the public sector) largely because they do operate in a fairly competitive environment.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/03/19 21:30:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 21:32:57
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
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This isn't like privatising the trains, lorries and cars are already privately owned. This is like privatising the tracks, and we all know how well that worked out.
This is like the plot to a bad Ayn Rand book.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 22:32:21
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The main problem I see with things such as roads, health services, trains etc being owned by private companies, is essentially they can charge what they way...
People can moan about prices, but if you need to get somewhere, you have to take a train, bus, car (or walk if its not far, but assuming your trying to get to Norwich from Canterbury, a Journey i'm making quite frequently while at University). If the main roads are going to be tolled, they can charge a few pound, and the only way to get around it, is by driving further than you need to, probably costing just as much if not more in petrol. Maybe the service will be improved, maybe whoever 'owns the roads' will carry out more maintenance, but are the roads really that bad anyway? Do we really want the extra cost?
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DC:90-S+G++M--B++I+pW40k08+D++A++/eWD257R++t(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 22:52:38
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Hysteria is fun.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 22:57:12
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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LordofHats wrote:How on earth is that contractor being paid that much and saving the government money at the same time?
Because the private sector is intrinsically more efficient, obviously.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 23:21:32
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
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Eugh, its going to take the next government years to put back all the crap that the current one's spending its time fething up. Typical Torries though, wanting to privatise everything (does't help that Cameron is Thatcher's protege). ¬¬
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 23:38:13
Subject: Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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...Or, y'know, this thing will be nowhere near as bad as you imagine it's going to be, and may even create jobs, whilst making significant infrastructure improvements. The likely result is probably somewhere in the middle.
Tony Blair was right, the left in this country are incredibly conservative.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 23:48:45
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
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^^ Or privatisation just has a proven history of fething up the country.
*Though note, I'm incredibly biased towards any issue relating to the Torries, being both a Liberal and a Scot. =D
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/19 23:58:20
Subject: Re:Article/Opinion Piece: Tory plans to privatise UK roads
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Wyrmalla wrote:^^ Or privatisation just has a proven history of fething up the country.
I find it odd that a person would trust a private company to fire them through the sky in a large metal tube, but wouldn't trust a private company to build and maintain road services, or provide healthcare. It's not privatisation that's the problem, it's finding ways to increase competetiveness.
*Though note, I'm incredibly biased towards any issue relating to the Torries, being both a Liberal and a Scot. =D
Are we pretending that the Scottish are not conservative in outlook now? And it's 'Tories'. Remember? They're there the ones currently in coalition with the Liberals.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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