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Basic question, I was musing over stuff when I had the idea, as stupid as it sounds, to put some tau broadsides inside a devilfish, and use their smart missile systems to fire.

Is this even possible? The weapon doesn't require LOS, but do they still need a fire point to actually fire due to the weapons special rule?

juraigamer wrote: but do they still need a fire point to actually fire

Yes

You need a fire point regardless as far as I'm aware.

Yes all shooing attacks regardless of LoS needed or not require fire points.

Not only are firepoints the only permission given to fire, they even FAQ'd it for GK and Astral Aim

It would be quite funny to have Tau Gomer Pile file a smart missle inside a devilfish and be amazed that it didn't hit the enemy.

Ha! That needs to be made into a comic or meme, STAT.

Think about it like this - fire points are essentially hatches that people can stick their heads out and shoot things. What would happen if you tried to stick your head out of a hatch that was closed - or worse, nonexistent.

At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points.

Chesh wrote:Ha! That needs to be made into a comic or meme, STAT.

Think about it like this - fire points are essentially hatches that people can stick their heads out and shoot things. What would happen if you tried to stick your head out of a hatch that was closed - or worse, nonexistent.

At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points.

So firing through the hull of a Rhino is a No-No if you are embarked, but if you are firing through two hulls because you are outside the vehicle positioned directly south of the rhino in B2B with it, and your opponent is Just North of the Rhino 1" away and not taller than the Rhino is of course okay.

There is common sense for you...... Curve the bullets?

DeathReaper wrote:So firing through the hull of a Rhino is a No-No if you are embarked, but if you are firing through two hulls because you are outside the vehicle positioned directly south of the rhino in B2B with it, and your opponent is Just North of the Rhino 1" away and not taller than the Rhino is of course okay.

Um.. what?

The Rhino blocks LoS.

Right, but say Astral aim, or the Hive guard weapon, or the Smart Missile System does not need LoS to fire on a given target.

So if, for GK with astral Aim, they can fire on the target that is out of LoS if they are outside the rhino firing through both the left and right side of the rhino's Hull, but they can not fire through one side if they are embarked. Seems counterintuitive, but then again, so do alot of rules.

I was simply responding to Chesh when he wrote: "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points."

Which clearly is not the case.

juraigamer wrote:I had the idea, as stupid as it sounds, to put some tau broadsides inside a devilfish...

I don't believe this is possible in the first place, rendering the rest of your question a moot point.

DeathReaper wrote:Right, but say Astral aim, or the Hive guard weapon, or the Smart Missile System does not need LoS to fire on a given target.

So if, for GK with astral Aim, they can fire on the target that is out of LoS if they are outside the rhino firing through both the left and right side of the rhino's Hull, but they can not fire through one side if they are embarked. Seems counterintuitive, but then again, so do alot of rules.

I was simply responding to Chesh when he wrote: "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points."

Which clearly is not the case.

Not sure about the other ones but missiles don't have to fly in a straight line. They can pop up and curve around things in the way (real life missles do this so it shouldn't be counterintuitive). If fired from inside they can't exactly do that.

So can Blood Lances, and any sort of ordnance/barrage weapon. A lot of psychic powers aren't stopped by LOS, and there are quite a few of them that can be used inside vehicles without fire points (generally everything that's not a "psychic shooting" attack).

I just got the image in my head of a Tau trying to fire their "smart missile" system inside a transport with no firing points, and the missile turning around and asking the Tau "What the HELL, man!?"

And when talking about attacks that don't require LOS, my common sense statement holds true - even if it doesn't require LOS, you're still surrounded on every side by barriers that wouldn't allow you to fire out of without wrecking your own transport.

Ghaz wrote:

juraigamer wrote:I had the idea, as stupid as it sounds, to put some tau broadsides inside a devilfish...

I don't believe this is possible in the first place, rendering the rest of your question a moot point.

You are correct, broadsides are XV88 suits and the rules for the devilfish say it cannot carry and XV battlesuits.

VoxDei wrote:Not sure about the other ones but missiles don't have to fly in a straight line. They can pop up and curve around things in the way (real life missles do this so it shouldn't be counterintuitive). If fired from inside they can't exactly do that.

I was referring to GK's and their Psycannons. They are basically Assault Cannons with Psi Ammo. They fire Real (Pretend) bullets. How is that going to curve around a transport to hit something that is 10 meters away? (It is not going to, but the rules say they can, so they can)

The counterintuitive part is they can go through 2 sections of a Land Raider's Hull just fine, but can not go through 1 section if they are embarked upon that Land Raider.

So common sense still has not made an appearence in the rules (Not that it has to, but again I was responding to Chesh when he said "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points.").

So clearly this is not the case.

Chesh wrote:And when talking about attacks that don't require LOS, my common sense statement holds true - even if it doesn't require LOS, you're still surrounded on every side by barriers that wouldn't allow you to fire out of without wrecking your own transport.

And you can not fire an Assault Cannon through a Land Raider without wrecking it, but the rules tell us we can. No common sense there.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krummlauf

And you can not fire an Assault Cannon through a Land Raider without wrecking it, but the rules tell us we can. No common sense there.

It's assumed that your unit ducks around the side of it to fire, or climbs up the conveniently placed ladder and fires from there. Our own units never block our LoS for obvious reasons - they aren't trying to block it, so we can get around them relatively easily.

Chesh wrote:
It's assumed that your unit ducks around the side of it to fire, or climbs up the conveniently placed ladder and fires from there. Our own units never block our LoS for obvious reasons - they aren't trying to block it, so we can get around them relatively easily.

Sorry but that's wrong. Your own units do so block LOS. Only models in the same unit donot block LOS

Nyrgh. Yeah, sorry - I fail at memory, apparently.

DeathReaper wrote:Right, but say Astral aim, or the Hive guard weapon, or the Smart Missile System does not need LoS to fire on a given target.

So if, for GK with astral Aim, they can fire on the target that is out of LoS if they are outside the rhino firing through both the left and right side of the rhino's Hull, but they can not fire through one side if they are embarked. Seems counterintuitive, but then again, so do alot of rules.

I was simply responding to Chesh when he wrote: "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points."

Which clearly is not the case.

It is easier to raise your weapon above a metal box and fire than it is to fire out of the medal box. Not really that hard of a concept.

d-usa wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Right, but say Astral aim, or the Hive guard weapon, or the Smart Missile System does not need LoS to fire on a given target.

So if, for GK with astral Aim, they can fire on the target that is out of LoS if they are outside the rhino firing through both the left and right side of the rhino's Hull, but they can not fire through one side if they are embarked. Seems counterintuitive, but then again, so do alot of rules.

I was simply responding to Chesh when he wrote: "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points."

Which clearly is not the case.

It is easier to raise your weapon above a metal box and fire than it is to fire out of the medal box. Not really that hard of a concept.

Not when the Land Raider is over 4 meters tall, and the guy firing it is only 2.8 meters tall, Not really that hard of a concept.

DeathReaper wrote:

d-usa wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Right, but say Astral aim, or the Hive guard weapon, or the Smart Missile System does not need LoS to fire on a given target.

So if, for GK with astral Aim, they can fire on the target that is out of LoS if they are outside the rhino firing through both the left and right side of the rhino's Hull, but they can not fire through one side if they are embarked. Seems counterintuitive, but then again, so do alot of rules.

I was simply responding to Chesh when he wrote: "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points."

Which clearly is not the case.

It is easier to raise your weapon above a metal box and fire than it is to fire out of the medal box. Not really that hard of a concept.

Not when the Land Raider is over 4 meters tall, and the guy firing it is only 2.8 meters tall, Not really that hard of a concept.

He can shoot around, he can climb up the ladder and shoot above, he might even be able to shoot below the thing. Any of which is a lot easier than shooting outside of a sealed metal box.

Either way, there are no firing ports available on a Land Raider. So, why is this thread still going?

d-usa wrote:He can shoot around, he can climb up the ladder and shoot above, he might even be able to shoot below the thing. Any of which is a lot easier than shooting outside of a sealed metal box.

No he really can't, a 2.8 meter tall guy can not accurately shoot over a 4 meter tall Tank. It just really is not possible.

Assume that either the Astartes in question will fire around the "Land Raider" or fire at a sufficient trajectory to hit the unseen assailant.
Why would you want to go blowing holes in your land raider anyways?? [the grey knights have Astral Aim is a psychic power to allow them to aim accurately what would normally bo "not accurately", similar applies to hive guard and Tau smart missiles have computer brains to compensate]

A) XV88 Broadsides cannot go in a devilfish...
B) No firing points means no shooting - why shoot a hole in your own armour when it is stopping other things from shooting you???

No. You need fire points to shoot out of. otherwise you'd be shooting the inside of the tank now wouldn't you.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

juraigamer wrote:I had the idea, as stupid as it sounds, to put some tau broadsides inside a devilfish...

I don't believe this is possible in the first place, rendering the rest of your question a moot point.

You are correct, broadsides are XV88 suits and the rules for the devilfish say it cannot carry and XV battlesuits.

I was only thinking of the fact that they are infantry, not the codex rule. Thanks.

DeathReaper wrote:

VoxDei wrote:Not sure about the other ones but missiles don't have to fly in a straight line. They can pop up and curve around things in the way (real life missles do this so it shouldn't be counterintuitive). If fired from inside they can't exactly do that.

I was referring to GK's and their Psycannons. They are basically Assault Cannons with Psi Ammo. They fire Real (Pretend) bullets. How is that going to curve around a transport to hit something that is 10 meters away? (It is not going to, but the rules say they can, so they can)

The counterintuitive part is they can go through 2 sections of a Land Raider's Hull just fine, but can not go through 1 section if they are embarked upon that Land Raider.

So common sense still has not made an appearence in the rules (Not that it has to, but again I was responding to Chesh when he said "At some point, common sense has to make at least a TOKEN appearance in the rules - and this is one of those points.").

So clearly this is not the case.

Not sure what the fluff is on the Psi ammo on why you don't need LOS. Maybe they just shoot into the air and WILL the bullets to the target . Have you ever seen the movie fifth element where the bullets curve?

VoxDei wrote:Not sure what the fluff is on the Psi ammo on why you don't need LOS. Maybe they just shoot into the air and WILL the bullets to the target . Have you ever seen the movie fifth element where the bullets curve?

It is not the Psy Ammo that does it, It is the Astral Aim Psychic power.

Also you are thinking of the movie 'Wanted' (Which was not as good as the graphic novel was) not 'The Fifth Element'

DeathReaper wrote:Also you are thinking of the movie 'Wanted' (Which was not as good as the graphic novel was) not 'The Fifth Element'

To be fair, they did have curving bullets in 5th Element. The scene where he's showing off the gun and shooting at the mannequin.
"Replay mode" iirc.