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When fighting in a standard night fight deployment, it is possible that by the time it comes to your shooting phase, your baby Rhino has lost its storm bolter. As a result, you ignore it or simply use it to rush forward, á la Rhino Rush. Fact is, that Rhino can’t do anything otherwise.

Or can it?

When shooting, it does not specifically say that anyone MUST shoot – it specifically says “A player may chose not to fire with certain models if he prefers”. (Page 16, “Which models can fire?”) Therefore, it is merely assumed that you will shoot at least one weapon. Technically, a model without a gun can still partake in a shooting phase, he simply does not contribute to the lead to the fire-fight he’s the guy saying “Yeah! Go team!” while everyone else is getting their faces blown off. Using this train of thought it is a simple assumption to make that the same goes for a rhino that does not have a true ranged weapon: it may still fire an arsenal of nothing.

Under this logic, a vehicle that moves at a pace where it would be allowed to shoot at least a defensive weapon (Or in the case of a LR/’Raven, any situation that permits a shot.) may shoot nothing at an infinite range and therefore test for his ‘Night fighting’ and gain the benefits of his Searchlight. (well, allow other vehicles the benefit of his search light.)

Do you feel this is an acceptable use of the tool?

If further support is needed, one can look as far as a real-world situation. Just because a support vehicle has nothing to fire with, it doesn’t suddenly stop being a support vehicle – it will perform any function it is capable of, including highlighting targets for its parent unit.

In the same, a Rhino will not suddenly fail in all functions because its Gunner is dead. The driver or the engineer can still man the searchlight and aid the soldiers in finding a target.

You can't shoot a "nothing". You are quite liberal with the rules assuming you can shoot nothing (as if it were an action of shooting, not the lack of it) and with infinite range (WTF?????). How do you roll to hit without shooting? What if the roll succeds, does the enemy take s: - ap:- shots?

That's quite a long way of saying "can I use a searchlight without firing a weapon".

Going from the description on p71 of codex: Imperial Guard (sorry don't have SM), although it is used in the shooting phase it says nothing about you having to shoot anything, or the speed.

So if you have no guns or going too fast then yes, use the searchlight. Can't see why not.

The main rulebook rules only permit a unit which is shooting to roll spotting distance.

If you have nothing to shoot with, are Shaken (unless you have Power of the Machine Spirit), and/or moved too fast to shoot, you cannot roll to spot an enemy unit.

If you do not roll to spot an enemy unit, a Searchlight does absolutely nothing.

This certainly isn't realistic, but the rules are clear on this.

My mistake, I was only looking at the searchlight rules, not night fighting.

Mannahnin is quite right, the unit needs to be firing (page95).

jgehunter wrote:You can't shoot a "nothing". You are quite liberal with the rules assuming you can shoot nothing (as if it were an action of shooting, not the lack of it) and with infinite range (WTF?????). How do you roll to hit without shooting? What if the roll succeds, does the enemy take s: - ap:- shots?

Why not? The rule book says (the english version at least, I can't be certain of your version given that your location indicator gives the spanish flag.) that to shoot all I need is line of sight of at least one model from firing distance to shooting. It does not ever mention a need to actually fire a weapon. The next part says that a model may chose to shoot nothing, but his squad still counts as shooting (noting all basic rules sections only refer to infantry squads, not tanks.) Nothing ever says a weapon must actually be shot.

You can assume that the infinite refers to the sight of the model rather than the range of a weapon. Given that the weapon is effectively the sight of the guy manning the searchlight, it has a damage potential of 0% (unless he's a psychic I suppose...) and therefore is S- AP- (we can assume it'd be assault 1, since you don't need to stand and look.)

Actually, I might change that to 0" range, as below. (I retract that previous descriptor.)

And, yes. But given that the attack is nominal, you're simply using the searchlight roll to highlight the unit for another. (I think you're forgetting the point of an arsenal of nothing in saying this.)

Mannahnin wrote:The main rulebook rules only permit a unit which is shooting to roll spotting distance.

If you have nothing to shoot with, are Shaken (unless you have Power of the Machine Spirit), and/or moved too fast to shoot, you cannot roll to spot an enemy unit.

If you do not roll to spot an enemy unit, a Searchlight does absolutely nothing.

This certainly isn't realistic, but the rules are clear on this.

No, it isn't. The rulebook does not actually specify the need to fire anywhere. It is simply inferred that you will. Nothing in the shooting phase states that you must actually shoot at least a single weapon, the Night-fighting rules refer specifically to the shooting phase. Vehicles only need to be moving slowly, have line of sight to hit to shoot. Therefore, it is entirely possible, given (I'll grant I am being liberal, but I am interpreting the RAW - I can't imagine the RAI being that I can't use a searchlight at any time, that's just stupid.) that you are still targeting a unit within line of sight and you have the ability to shoot (but you will choose to shoot nothing, not be forced to shoot nothing.) You simple roll for Night fight and then check range and pow, you're out of range. What's the problem?

grendel083 wrote:That's quite a long way of saying "can I use a searchlight without firing a weapon".

Going from the description on p71 of codex: Imperial Guard (sorry don't have SM), although it is used in the shooting phase it says nothing about you having to shoot anything, or the speed.

So if you have no guns or going too fast then yes, use the searchlight. Can't see why not.

No, it's a way of justifying my point. The rules for searchlights are irrelevant, actually.

In the vehicle movement rules it specifies the number of weapons you are allowed to shoot depending on the movement you have done.
However try and tell me where it says the number of "no weapons" that I am allowed to "not shoot (HINT: don't try and find it).
I have the english version of the BRB, BTW

Scipio Africanus wrote:

jgehunter wrote:You can't shoot a "nothing". You are quite liberal with the rules assuming you can shoot nothing (as if it were an action of shooting, not the lack of it) and with infinite range (WTF?????). How do you roll to hit without shooting? What if the roll succeds, does the enemy take s: - ap:- shots?

Why not? The rule book says (the english version at least, I can't be certain of your version given that your location indicator gives the spanish flag.) that to shoot all I need is line of sight of at least one model from firing distance to shooting. It does not ever mention a need to actually fire a weapon.

You need to actually have a weapon to pick a target and Check LoS.

If you have no weapons, then you are not the "Firing Unit"p.16 details picking a target and checking LoS. Add in the Vehicle Weapons and LoS rules on P.58, and you see that you can not pick a target if you can not shoot, or do not have a weapon to shoot with.

DeathReaper wrote:If you have no weapons, then you are not the "Firing Unit"p.16 details picking a target and checking LoS. Add in the Vehicle Weapons and LoS rules on P.58, and you see that you can not pick a target if you can not shoot, or do not have a weapon to shoot with.

Please give me a direct quote.

What you're saying is that because there is no weapon I can't draw LOS from the barrel, right?

Okay, then I'll draw line of sight from the searchlight.

I am not getting the 'vibe' from the written text that I cannot shoot because I have no weapons. The rulebook doesn't cover this because it is an eventuality that they believed would never come up. (rightfully so, I suppose.) In this case, I cannot agree with you on the basis of your interpretation, because I see no rules supporting it. I see "You must be able to draw line of sight" and "You may chose to fire with whatever weapons you so please."

Scipio Africanus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If you have no weapons, then you are not the "Firing Unit"p.16 details picking a target and checking LoS. Add in the Vehicle Weapons and LoS rules on P.58, and you see that you can not pick a target if you can not shoot, or do not have a weapon to shoot with.

Please give me a direct quote.

What you're saying is that because there is no weapon I can't draw LOS from the barrel, right?

Okay, then I'll draw line of sight from the searchlight.

You can not draw LoS from the searchlight as it is not a weapon, and we are only given permission to draw LoS from the weapons mounting along the barrel. P.58

The searchlight is not a weapon, and does not have a barrel from which to trace LoS.

That alone is not enought to justify this. It isn't so to say that the vehicle is not participating in combat, just that it cannot draw LOS.

By your argument, a Dreadnought with a CCW (but no shooting weapon) can still use LOS because it has a 'weapon'. The rule isn't specific enough to disallow shooting, it simply states that you draw LOS through the barrel of a gun.

While I can accept the taken perspective 'you can't draw LOS' that I am assuming you're using, I believe that it does not disallow shooting on its own. No, the Vehicle may still fire nothing (your argument, however would disallow it from seeing anything. We can assume, however that because it is firing from nothing that the fire-point would be the pintle of the the tank.)

To be able to draw LoS you need to have a weapon to draw LoS from.

A Seachlight is not a weapon...

Per the Nightfighting rules on page 95, you only roll for spotting "after selecting a target, but before a unit fires". You have no permission to roll spotting distance other than this. It is only possible when shooting.

As I said before, this doesn't 100% make sense from a "realism" perspective; certainly a vehicle with no weapons but still possessing a Searchlight SHOULD be able to sweep the darkness with it, but the rules don't allow that option. I think it's mostly a matter of simplicity; Crew Shaken or moving too fast too shoot are reasonably logical things to also prevent using a Searchlight, if the crew's not able to shoot.

But what I am suggesting is that you require a target irrespective of whether or not you plan on shooting. What I suggest is that the model still shoots, despite its lack of a weapon. You still acquire your LOS target, do your searchlight and all, but you are unable to cause any damage (except maybe make them crap their pants if your tank is particularly menacing. )

That suggestion doesn't fit the rules, though. In the rules of this game, you can only select a target if you have an attack which requires you to select a target. If you don't, you can't.

Mannahnin wrote:That suggestion doesn't fit the rules, though. In the rules of this game, you can only select a target if you have an attack which requires you to select a target. If you don't, you can't.

First off, you should not have said requires; you should have said allowed, because under this line of thought my point is still valid. (you are required to pick a target.) In addition, weapons with random ranged effects or that do not have to target specific things would not be used at all.

Secondly, I'm struggling to find a direct quote that at least implies this. I am inclined to believe it (it makes GW rules sense.) and until I had a decent read of the shooting rules, I had always thought something to this affect.

If you can provide me with a different perspective where what you're stating is implied in the text, then I am willing to accept that as kosher and move on, but from my perspective I can't see it.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That suggestion doesn't fit the rules, though. In the rules of this game, you can only select a target if you have an attack which requires you to select a target. If you don't, you can't.

First off, you should not have said requires; you should have said allowed, because under this line of thought my point is still valid. (you are required to pick a target.) In addition, weapons with random ranged effects or that do not have to target specific things would not be used at all.

Secondly, I'm struggling to find a direct quote that at least implies this. I am inclined to believe it (it makes GW rules sense.) and until I had a decent read of the shooting rules, I had always thought something to this affect.

If you can provide me with a different perspective where what you're stating is implied in the text, then I am willing to accept that as kosher and move on, but from my perspective I can't see it.

If you can't shoot you can't use them. Check the Errata:

"Page 55 – Search-lights, second paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
If a vehicle has a searchlight, it must still use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

jgehunter wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That suggestion doesn't fit the rules, though. In the rules of this game, you can only select a target if you have an attack which requires you to select a target. If you don't, you can't.

First off, you should not have said requires; you should have said allowed, because under this line of thought my point is still valid. (you are required to pick a target.) In addition, weapons with random ranged effects or that do not have to target specific things would not be used at all.

Secondly, I'm struggling to find a direct quote that at least implies this. I am inclined to believe it (it makes GW rules sense.) and until I had a decent read of the shooting rules, I had always thought something to this affect.

If you can provide me with a different perspective where what you're stating is implied in the text, then I am willing to accept that as kosher and move on, but from my perspective I can't see it.

If you can't shoot you can't use them. Check the Errata:

"Page 55 – Search-lights, second paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
If a vehicle has a searchlight, it must still use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

That's cyclic. my argument is that you fire nothing but still manage to fire a weapon. Your firing initiates at the picking of target and ends once all damage has been dealt - even if that is a total of 0. Otherwise, inneffective shooting would never allow the phase to end.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That suggestion doesn't fit the rules, though. In the rules of this game, you can only select a target if you have an attack which requires you to select a target. If you don't, you can't.

First off, you should not have said requires; you should have said allowed, because under this line of thought my point is still valid. (you are required to pick a target.) In addition, weapons with random ranged effects or that do not have to target specific things would not be used at all.

Secondly, I'm struggling to find a direct quote that at least implies this. I am inclined to believe it (it makes GW rules sense.) and until I had a decent read of the shooting rules, I had always thought something to this affect.

If you can provide me with a different perspective where what you're stating is implied in the text, then I am willing to accept that as kosher and move on, but from my perspective I can't see it.

If you can't shoot you can't use them. Check the Errata:

"Page 55 – Search-lights, second paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
If a vehicle has a searchlight, it must still use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

That's cyclic. my argument is that you fire nothing but still manage to fire a weapon. Your firing initiates at the picking of target and ends once all damage has been dealt - even if that is a total of 0. Otherwise, inneffective shooting would never allow the phase to end.

Page 15
"In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LOS to at least one model in the target unit"

How do you check LOS without a weapon?

Scipio Africanus wrote:

jgehunter wrote:If you can't shoot you can't use them. Check the Errata:

"Page 55 – Search-lights, second paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
If a vehicle has a searchlight, it must still use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

That's cyclic. my argument is that you fire nothing but still manage to fire a weapon. Your firing initiates at the picking of target and ends once all damage has been dealt - even if that is a total of 0. Otherwise, inneffective shooting would never allow the phase to end.

Your argument requires you to believe that you can "fire nothing but still manage to fire a weapon". Can you not see that this is a contradiction in terms? That's like me saying that I cannot eat a bicycle but am eating a bicycle.

The firing process requires you to be firing a weapon to pick a target. The Night Fighting rules require you to have picked a target to roll for spotting distance. If you never complete step "A", you don't get to go onto to subsequent steps "B" and "C".

jgehunter wrote:Page 15
"In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LOS to at least one model in the target unit"

How do you check LOS without a weapon?

For infantry you don't need a weapon - otherwise the Rage rule would not work for units with two CCW's.

Mannahnin wrote:
Your argument requires you to believe that you can "fire nothing but still manage to fire a weapon". Can you not see that this is a contradiction in terms? That's like me saying that I cannot eat a bicycle but am eating a bicycle.

The firing process requires you to be firing a weapon to pick a target. The Night Fighting rules require you to have picked a target to roll for spotting distance. If you never complete step "A", you don't get to go onto to subsequent steps "B" and "C".

Which I say is possible. It is not that you must believe that you are not firing a weapon, it is that when it comes time to decide WHAT weapons will be fired, you decide to fire none (because the rules give you this option.)

Thus, despite the lack of a weapon you are still able to fire.

That said, If this takes this much argument to come to terms with, then I doubt it'll fly in any kind of game where I might want to use it.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

jgehunter wrote:Page 15
"In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LOS to at least one model in the target unit"

How do you check LOS without a weapon?

For infantry you don't need a weapon - otherwise the Rage rule would not work for units with two CCW's.

he was speaking of vehicles, as they draw LoS from the weapons mounting along the barrel.

To be able to spot a unit, you need to see if it is in LoS.

you determine LoS, for a vehicle, from the weapons mounting along the barrel.

The Searchlight is not a weapon, so you can not check LoS from the weapons mounting along the barrel as there is no weapon.

Since there is no weapon on the vehicle, the vehicle can never see anything.

Basically, Scipio Africanus' argument is that since you don't have to fire with every model in a unit when that unit shoots, you can choose to fire with no models when that unit shoots.

In other words, the process (according to the OP) goes like this:

-Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target
-Having Picked a Target (before attempting to fire), the Night Fighting rules go into effect, so the unit must roll to spot the chosen target. Assuming the spotting is successful, the Searchlight goes into effect.
-Declare which models will shoot.
-Check Range
-Resolve Shooting

AFAIK, technically what he's suggesting may be possible. Night Fighting does not explicitly tell you when you must make the roll to spot, only that it happens "after picking a target" and "before firing." Since declaring which models in the unit will fire only happens "before checking range," it seems plausible that one could pick a target, resolve the Night Fighting/Searchlight rules, and then declare that the model will not fire.

It's really no different than having a squadron of vehicles where only one model has a searchlight. The way the rules are written, the model with the searchlight does not need to actually fire in order to make use of it, as the searchlight and Night Fighting rules are on a unit-basis, and can be resolved before declaring which models will fire.

However, I suppose it's arguable that a model with no weapons cannot shoot regardless of the way the rules are worded. But there's nowhere that explicitly states when a model can or cannot shoot. (For obvious reasons, really).

EDIT: As for drawing line of sight, the weapon barrels are technically still there even though the "weapons" are gone. A Dreadnought (Walker) with Rage must still draw line of sight even if it has no weapons left, unless everyone plays that DC Dreadnoughts do not ever use the Rage rule if they have no ranged weapons.

EDIT EDIT: I'm not advocating this method of playing; I'm just laying out my understanding of what is technically possible by RAW.

Xca|iber wrote: Night Fighting does not explicitly tell you when you must make the roll to spot, only that it happens "after picking a target" and "before firing." Since declaring which models in the unit will fire only happens "before checking range," it seems plausible that one could pick a target, resolve the Night Fighting/Searchlight rules, and then declare that the model will not fire.

Except that vehicles can not pick a target if it has no ranged weapon.

DeathReaper wrote:

Xca|iber wrote: Night Fighting does not explicitly tell you when you must make the roll to spot, only that it happens "after picking a target" and "before firing." Since declaring which models in the unit will fire only happens "before checking range," it seems plausible that one could pick a target, resolve the Night Fighting/Searchlight rules, and then declare that the model will not fire.

Except that vehicles can not pick a target if it has no ranged weapon.

Nothing in the permission to shoot requires a weapon. (It's simply not stated in the Shooting Phase rules at all). The closest thing to a requirement is the line, "Normally, each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon." Here a model is given permission to shoot, but it does not explicitly state that each model fires a weapon, only that they can. Stupid, yes, but still within the rules.

P.15 the shooting sequence sidebar "1 Check LoS & pick a target. Pick one of your units, check its LoS and choose a target for it."

Coupled with P.16 Left column under Check LoS and pick a target, 1st graph. "In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LoS to at least one model in the target unit/ If no models have LoS then a different target must be chosen."

And of course P.58 right column, 5th graph 2nd sentence "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace LoS from each weapons pounting and along its barrel"

Vehicles can not pick a target if it has no ranged weapon.

DeathReaper wrote:P.15 the shooting sequence sidebar "1 Check LoS & pick a target. Pick one of your units, check its LoS and choose a target for it."

Coupled with P.16 Left column under Check LoS and pick a target, 1st graph. "In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LoS to at least one model in the target unit/ If no models have LoS then a different target must be chosen."

And of course P.58 right column, 5th graph 2nd sentence "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace LoS from each weapons pounting and along its barrel"

Vehicles can not pick a target if it has no ranged weapon.

Yet the barrel is still there, ergo the weapon is still there. Nothing says that a destroyed weapon is "gone" per se, only that it cannot be fired (and technically players are never given permission to remove the weapons at all, it's just common practice). So the section about pointing the weapon to draw LOS still functions perfectly fine. And if you say that you're only allowed to draw LOS from a weapon that is being fired, then I assume you will also contend that a DC dreadnought with no ranged weapons does not have to follow the Rage rule?

Xca|iber wrote:Yet the barrel is still there, ergo the weapon is still there. Nothing says that a destroyed weapon is "gone" per se, only that it cannot be fired (and technically players are never given permission to remove the weapons at all, it's just common practice). So the section about pointing the weapon to draw LOS still functions perfectly fine. And if you say that you're only allowed to draw LOS from a weapon that is being fired, then I assume you will also contend that a DC dreadnought with no ranged weapons does not have to follow the Rage rule?

The Weapon Destroyed Result disagrees with you. (BRB 61).

As for a DC Dread if you have no ranged weapons, it can not draw LoS, and is unaffected by Rage (As far as RAW goes)

DeathReaper wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:Yet the barrel is still there, ergo the weapon is still there. Nothing says that a destroyed weapon is "gone" per se, only that it cannot be fired (and technically players are never given permission to remove the weapons at all, it's just common practice). So the section about pointing the weapon to draw LOS still functions perfectly fine. And if you say that you're only allowed to draw LOS from a weapon that is being fired, then I assume you will also contend that a DC dreadnought with no ranged weapons does not have to follow the Rage rule?

The Weapon Destroyed Result disagrees with you. (BRB 61).

As for a DC Dread if you have no ranged weapons, it can not draw LoS, and is unaffected by Rage (As far as RAW goes)

The only thing it says is some fluff about "ripped off by the force of the attack." Fluff is not rules, and IMHO that line is not enough to constitute an instruction to physically remove any part of the model. I'd imagine your opponent might be a bit peeved if you just grabbed their land raider and tore off a glued on weapon. All we're told is the weapon is destroyed.

"One of the vehicles weapons is destroyed" P.61

if something is destroyed, you can not look down its barrel...